Sex workers?

[an anarchist]

It's a human rights issue. I do not see where anyone has the right to rent someone's body for their own sexual pleasure. And people's enjoyment of something is irrelevant as to whether it's ethnically or something society should back. Whatever you can think of, someone enjoys it even it's a very small number of people.

As bad as you may think you had it as a dishwater because it's tedious menial work, it's not the same as having to spread your legs for strangers. I hate these discussions because I always feel like I have to explain elementary things to people who should know better. If you can't see why sex is different from dish washing, that's just shocking, sad and I despair even more for the future of society.

I’ve seen people comfortable with their sexuality and be willingly sexually active with strangers, such as through sex work. They feel liberated by their sexuality and I think it would be degrading to restrict their freedom to express themselves.

 

[PureX]

Should the government step in and restrict the individual’s liberty to pursue the job they want when the individual would be willing?

Yes. The whole purpose of the establishment of government is to act in the best interest of the society as a whole. Not to protect one individual's right to abuse others, or to be abused by them, for money.

I find restaurant work to be degrading. I’ve scraped up literal crap and vomit off of the floor many times for minimum wage. I’ve hurt my back long term because of restaurant work. I’ve been degraded in the industry

And yet nobody ever put their penis inside you, I'm guessing. So your work at the restaurant wasn't really at all like prostitution. Nor as degrading.

 

[an anarchist]

Yes. The whole purpose of the establishment of government is to act in the best interest of the society as a whole. Not to protect one individual's right to abuse others, or to be abused by them, for money.

And yet nobody ever put their penis inside you, I'm guessing. So your work at the restaurant wasn't really at all like prostitution. Nor as degrading.

Can you reply to

Are you going with the “capitalism is slavery” logic and extrapolating it to this topic? I am trying to understand because I am confused. People are saying as long as both parties CONSENT then it’s ok. Then you say “nah, it’s SA”.

???????

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I’ve seen people comfortable with their sexuality and be willingly sexually active with strangers, such as through sex work. They feel liberated by their sexuality and I think it would be degrading to restrict their freedom to express themselves.

Freedom isn't unlimited in society and it never will be. I'm more concerned with the needs of society as a whole rather than the desires of a few people to degrade themselves.

 

[an anarchist]

Freedom isn't unlimited in society and it never will be. I'm more concerned with the needs of society as a whole rather than the desires of a few people to degrade themselves.

So what is “the needs of society” in this context?

Why the hate on people being sexual how they want to? I don’t get it.

I didn’t say that people had desires to degrade themselves, I said -

I’ve seen people comfortable with their sexuality and be willingly sexually active with strangers, such as through sex work. They feel liberated by their sexuality and I think it would be degrading to restrict their freedom to express themselves.

And you read that as

the desires of a few people to degrade themselves.

Can you explain why you read into it like that? Because that is not at all what I said.

 

[PureX]

Can you reply to

Go back and read post #62. It explains itself well enough.

 

[an anarchist]

Go back and read post #62. It explains itself well enough.

I don’t buy the whole “capitalism/money is slavery” shtick. That idea makes any work you do a form of slavery.

I guess we’ll just disagree. No need to shout at a wall.

 

[ChristineM]

It is apparently ok for someone to rent your body to shovel **** for 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body work in sewers 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body to stack shelves 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body to place part A in receptacle B 8 hours a day

But it's demeaning to rent your body to have sex because its sexual assault.

I really think i should post a link to this thread in the Things I Do Not Understand thread

 

[VoidCat]

It's a human rights issue. I do not see where anyone has the right to rent someone's body for their own sexual pleasure. And people's enjoyment of something is irrelevant as to whether it's ethnically or something society should back. Whatever you can think of, someone enjoys it even it's a very small number of people.

As bad as you may think you had it as a dishwater because it's tedious menial work, it's not the same as having to spread your legs for strangers. I hate these discussions because I always feel like I have to explain elementary things to people who should know better. If you can't see why sex is different from dish washing, that's just shocking, sad and I despair even more for the future of society.

I can see your logic. That is one reason I don't engage in sex work because I do feel sex is more meaningful to me then just physical interaction and being paid for me would be degrading in some levels. However not everyone agrees and for me sometimes engaging in sex with strangers can be uplifting at least virtually i never had sex with anyone in person. I can also see this logic:

I’ve seen people comfortable with their sexuality and be willingly sexually active with strangers, such as through sex work. They feel liberated by their sexuality and I think it would be degrading to restrict their freedom to express themselves.

The thing to me is sexuality is very complicated. And as a result, this whole thing is complex. Sex can be both liberating and absolutely horrible. I hesitate to go to any extremes like banning sex work completely or allowing it unchecked. I think at the least it needs to be heavily regulated. I don't think it's work most people could do comfortably but it's also extreme to say all people who engage in it are forced into it and being sexually assaulted.

This conversation is hard for me because I truly don't know the full answers to what to do. I don't want to restrict peoples sexual freedoms especially if some people do feel liberated by sex work. But I don't want people to have an unhealthy view of sex and I don't want people forced into it be it by not having any other choice or someone kidnapping them. This is even more complicated if we zoom out a bit and realize the impact at large. Kids access porn- how do we restrict that? Porn is some peoples only access to sex ed and a lot of it is faked. How do we fix it so that people are educated properly on sex? People get addicted to porn- how do we miniumize this risk? This is just scratching the surface. I don't even know how to solve all these problems and respect the health and rights of all involved.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So what is “the needs of society” in this context?

Stability and healthy families.

Why the hate on people being sexual how they want to? I don’t get it.

What I don't get is the insane worship of sex in of itself, divorced from any notion of caring or a bond. I think a lot of people have lost their minds over it, and sex addiction is not uncommon.

I didn’t say that people had desires to degrade themselves, I said -

And you read that as

Can you explain why you read into it like that? Because that is not at all what I said.

I know you didn't say that. I said that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is apparently ok for someone to rent your body to shovel **** for 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body work in sewers 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body to stack shelves 8 hours a day. It's ok to rent your body to place part A in receptacle B 8 hours a day

But it's demeaning to rent your body to have sex because its sexual assault.

I really think i should post a link to this thread in the Things I Do Not Understand thread

Continuing to use these false equivalencies isn't going to change anything. You're not renting your body itself for use by other people in those examples, but getting paid for your labor skills. Sex workers literally make their own bodies into a product to be sold. None of the jobs I've done have entailed selling my actual body to someone for their own enjoyment.

 

[an anarchist]

i can see your logic. That is one reason I don't engage in sex work because I do feel sex is more meaningful to me then just physical interaction and being paid for me would be degrading in some levels. However not everyone agrees and for me sometimes engaging in sex with strangers can be uplifting at least virtually i never had sex with anyone in person. I can also see this logic:



The thing to me is sexuality is very complicated. And as a result, this whole thing is complex. Sex can be both liberating and absolutely horrible. I hesitate to go to any extremes like banning sex work completely or allowing it unchecked. I think at the least it needs to be heavily regulated. I don't think it's work most people could do comfortably but it's also extreme to say all people who engage in it are forced into it and being sexually assaulted.

This conversation is hard for me because I truly don't know the full answers to what to do. I don't want to restrict peoples sexual freedoms especially if some people do feel liberated by sex work. But I don't want people to have an unhealthy view of sex and I don't want people forced into it be it by not having any other choice or someone kidnapping them. This is even more complicated if we zoom out a bit and realize the impact at large. Kids access porn- how do we restrict that? Porn is some peoples only access to sex ed and a lot of it is faked. How do we fix it so that people are educated properly on sex? People get addicted to porn- how do we miniumize this risk? This is just scratching the surface. I don't even know how to solve all these problems and respect the health and rights of all involved.

I appreciate you willingness to say “I’m not sure”. It’s easy for me to be a keyboard warrior but I really dunno either. People always assume that anarchists are against regulation and rules, but that’s not true. Anarchists are simply against government. They are not against the essential functions of government such as the regulation of society. Anarchists just believe regulation of society can be more better and morally achieved without government. My point is I agree that it should be regulated as with all things. People always assume that is not my stance since I am @an anarchist but I am all for regulation. Sex work would be no different as it is an exploitable industry with a potentially exploitable population.

I’m just arguing more on principle. I don’t know how we should actually handle it IRL. But I guess it’s a good thing im not in charge of things.

 

[ChristineM]

Continuing to use these false equivalencies isn't going to change anything. You're not renting your body itself for use by other people in those examples, but getting paid for your labor skills.

You are renting the use of your body. And trust me, shovelling **** os not a skill. That is not a false equivalence but a fact. Some people though, attach a stigma to sex work and constantly will fail to understand that it's just another profession, one of the oldest professions in the world.

 

[Twilight Hue]

How very odd. You spend a lot of time telling us how uninterested you are in things (like your post on the election), but you insist on letting us know about it.

If you don't care, why are you engaging?

It would be like you to get her to shut up. Am I right?

 

[Regiomontanus]

Is it amoral to see a sex worker?

Yes, if one is a Christian (and probably if following any religion).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are renting the use of your body. And trust me, shovelling **** os not a skill. That is not a false equivalence but a fact.

You're not selling your body as a product in that scenario no matter how many times you want to repeat yourself. You're selling your ability to pick up a shovel and move crap around with it.

Some people though, attach a stigma to sex work and constantly will fail to understand that it's just another profession, one of the oldest professions in the world.

I understand your point, I just don't agree that it's just another profession. I think that old line about it being the "oldest profession" is unproven nonsense, too. It's just some saying people keep repeating. I'm pretty sure our prehistoric ancestors weren't prostituting themselves. There was no money. Prostitution seems to be a feature of stratified civilizations and class. I believe it only starts showing up first in ancient Near Eastern civilizations. The oldest professions are shaman, healer, tribal chief, hunter, warrior, etc.

 

[Secret Chief]

a very seedy part of Manchester

Hulme or Moss Side?

 

[an anarchist]

I know you didn't say that. I said that.

Umm, indeed? That’s why I asked for elaboration, because you left me confused and curious.

I didn’t say that people had desires to degrade themselves, I said -
And you read that as
Can you explain why you read into it like that? Because that is not at all what I said.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Umm, indeed? That’s why I asked for elaboration, because you left me confused and curious.

Because I think sex work is degrading.

 

[VoidCat]

I appreciate you willingness to say “I’m not sure”. It’s easy for me to be a keyboard warrior but I really dunno either. People always assume that anarchists are against regulation and rules, but that’s not true. Anarchists are simply against government. They are not against the essential functions of government such as the regulation of society. Anarchists just believe regulation of society can be more better and morally achieved without government. My point is I agree that it should be regulated as with all things. People always assume that is not my stance since I am @an anarchist but I am all for regulation. Sex work would be no different as it is an exploitable industry with a potentially exploitable population.

I’m just arguing more on principle. I don’t know how we should actually handle it IRL. But I guess it’s a good thing im not in charge of things.

The only idea I have might be if somehow there was government regulations for health and safety and an ability to blacklist people. Willingly like how people do with casinos but also blacklisting folk for any reason the place sees fit. Like if there's someone pushing boundaries the place offering the services be it online or off can blacklist them. If they return they can be refused service by law the government can arrest them for trespassing if they get pushy. The blacklist could be semipublic and shared with other places that offer sexual services with reasons why the individual was blacklisted. But semi so only people in the industry and the government and whoever is put on the list could access such records. To protect privacy of those on the lists. And the places could be notified of sex offenders by the government so that they can automatically be put on the no prostituation or porn for you list.

Maybe two lists- one for those who break rules and one for people who just want to be restricted due to addiction issues. The second list could be split into no service at all and service but limited to a certain amount of money they allowed to spend and a time frame.




Im not sure how this would work in practice and if there would be unintended consequences for it. But it's the best idea i got.