Shakta Discussion

[DeviChaaya]

Perhaps an odd response but I believe that many of these deities are so similar simply because they are real. While we call Mata ji Durga, other cultures named Her Ishtar or Isis. These are forces much larger than ourselves and they filter down through the global consciousness.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps an odd response but I believe that many of these deities are so similar simply because they are real.

Here, allow me to put a spanner in the works. RigVeda, Nasadiya Sukta said Gods are later to the creation of the universe. But not necessary that every one agree with that.

 

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

DeviChaaya's response is not odd to me

Bearing in mind this is the Shakta Discussion thread, I wish to note that Swasthani Brata Katha began two days ago in Nepal-
perhaps this is yet another form of Devi that RF members might not be as familiar with?
Jai Maa Swasthani!

JAI MATA DI

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have so many devis, all over India, that it is impossible to come to know of all. Nobody has listed them. Each village will have its 'gram devta' or 'gram devi'. Sort of like you have village heads (Sarpanchas in India). All are forms of Shakti.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now that I have come to this thread, we should understand that the Mother Goddess in human history may not always had been known as Ishtar, Asherah, or Durga. Perhaps people knew them with different names in different regions at different times. But the Mother Goddess has always been there. This mother Goddess (Venus of Willendorf) belonged to the Gravettian period (20,000 - 26,000 BCE). This is pre-maxium for the last ice-age. Another (Venus of Dolní Věstonice), is even older, the earliest discovered ceramic (29,000 BCE – 25,000 BCE). And this one here (Venus of Brassempouy) is 35,000 years old. Can anybody tell me as to with what names were they known?

 

[Kalibhakta]

They are all called Venus, to my knowledge. A pre-historical goddess we think is fertility based.


Now somebody compared Ishtar to Durga. I have my own theory. I have the strange view that Sekhmet is a form of Mother Kali. Now I have to preface this with a lot of heavy duty warnings; I am a not a Syncretist, what I will show is not a historical truth IE there is no proof one influenced the other, that Egyptian theology with its heavy very focus on "Good Vs Evil" on a cosmological and duelist level is not somehow magically compatible with Hinduism, ect ect ect. The imagery I will show, however, is merely to show the Theological and the Iconographical parallels to my view that the Mother Goddess has many different forms I feel she imprinted on other Religions for the benefit of non-Hindus historically. I think Lord Shiva has done the same, but this is just one example

Let us start with Theology. Both goddesses are contradictions, they are outwardly wrathful and inwardly compassionate. Both are slayers of Demons, upholders of Truth, They bring death to the body, but freedom to the spirit. Much like Mother Mariamman, another orthodox form of Shakti, she brings and cures disease. Mother Kali has the story that when she fought Raktabija, one of the demons who overthrew the Gods, she got drunk on his blood after killing him, and Lord Shiva had to step in to calm her, stepping on him. Sekhmet had the story that that evil priests and black magicians where plotting to overthrow the gods, Ra threw Sekhmet at them to destroy them, but got so wild she was going to destroy the earth, so they got an ocean of beer, and died it red with ocher, which she took as blood, got drunk, and calmed down. But Sekhmet was a very beloved goddess, so like Mother Kali, the priests of the major religious structures felt the need to tame her. Both stories are to be viewed as not subduing the goddess, but honoring her enough to get her to grant, and with pure faith, that is a very easy thing to be granted.

Iconographically, it gets even more striking. Let us start with an Orthodox Vedic goddess, Pratyangira. She is Narasimha's Shakti, and is worshiped to Banish Black magic and Demons.

Here is a typical image

But I found two posters that show more clearly a lion:

Now then, to compare:

Now to note some key things: The both have long hair, like manes. So the combine the female and the male. The are both head crested by fire/The Sun, and they both have snakes adorning their heads/necks. Now, what that means in Hinduism and Egyptian mythology are two different things, but the case for *spiritual, not historical* similarity is brightly spoken. One did not inspire the other, via trade of ideas, but I think on a spiritual level Kali inspired the Egyptians in such a way.


Thanks to https://www.flickr.com/photos/sumeru_badragiri/
For credit for the two posters I used for this.!

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Egyptian depictions are new and contrived. The two large Hindu images of also are the same, new and contrived. Have not heard of Pratyangira as a Vedic deity. Many Vedic deities roam the mountains like wild beasts. I am sure Rudra does. Narasimhi has to match Nrisimha for a successful marriage. (If you are not a syncretist, why attempt it! IMHO, we arrived to the same answer through our different cultures)

 

[Kalibhakta]

There is something beautiful about the idea of the mother and the father of the universe showing up in the world in different guises, I guess it's a strange Bhakti thing.

Edit: It was from the a Temple from Narasimhi: https://flic.kr/p/height%3D480%3Bid%3D6612482137%3Bwidth%3D640 They seem found of the example pictures. Are they really not orthodox?

 

[SomeRandom]

There is something beautiful about the idea of the mother and the father of the universe showing up in the world in different guises, I guess it's a strange Bhakti thing.

Edit: It was from the a Temple from Narasimhi: https://flic.kr/p/height%3D480%3Bid%3D6612482137%3Bwidth%3D640 They seem found of the example pictures. Are they really not orthodox?

I find the idea awesome. We all recognise the Mother and Father, though perhaps we call them different names. But what is in a name after all?
I'm not a practicing Hindu as of late. More like a diluted born Hindu still stumbling towards my path. However like yourself I was and still am very drawn to Mata Kali. The power and strength offers one fierce maternal protection and there's a soothing nature to her even in her "fierce" form.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, I find it strange that people will term Kali as ferocious. To me, she is a loving mother.

 

[Kalibhakta]

The fierceness, dear Aupmanyav, is not superficial, but it s not the whole or even the main. Mother Kali is 'scary', because she has to be. Who else will protect us from evil so unrelentingly? The greatest doom of man is fear, especially the fear of Death. Fearing Death causes you to deny it, and causes you to attach to other, lesser fears, along with clinging to material things. If Mother Kali was not clad in her death, then she could not have the power to show that even death yields to her. She, the terrible, is so vast, like a black hole...who could stop her? What tyrant on earth, with his torture and wars, what demon, with cruelty and torment, what inner vice, so consuming and grasping.....who among these can stand up to her? Death yielded to Lord Shiva, the best of the Gods. And Lord Shiva yielded to Mother Kali! Lord Krishna and Lord Rama prayed to her as well, as well as to Mother Durga. (This in my mind shows that the gods are dear to each other rather then any base sectarianism on my part)

That being said.... She is a loving, kind mother. She is fierce to the tantrics, and kind to her bhaktis, and I doubt they would want it any other way.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, I find it strange that people will term Kali as ferocious. To me, she is a loving mother.

She is indeed a loving mother, Aup. But tell me, when a loving mother must protect her babies, does she not become ferocious to the danger? Does she not become a fierce warrior in order to stand between her babies and the threat? She is fierce, yes, but only to the threat. To those under her care, all her forms are soothing and dare I say even comforting.

Also I agree with Kalibhakt-ji, though I did not know what else I could add to such an eloquent and true response.

 

[Kalibhakta]

Dear SomeRandom; at the risk of maybe alienating you or some others, I would really have to strongly suggest you not leave Mother's side. I cannot tell you in a good mind "you must stay Hindu" but that having faith in mother unlocks all the doors. I feel my bhakti is my only virtue, and whatever people like in me is merely my life as a mirror to her. All I can say is "Faith will lead you to good places."

You are a stranger to me, but as Rumi says, as two drunks know each other, two lovers of god know each other. I Care for you in only the way a person who loves people does, but I sincerely hope find your way in life.

 

[SomeRandom]

Dear SomeRandom; at the risk of maybe alienating you or some others, I would really have to strongly suggest you not leave Mother's side. I cannot tell you in a good mind "you must stay Hindu" but that having faith in mother unlocks all the doors. I feel my bhakti is my only virtue, and whatever people like in me is merely my life as a mirror to her. All I can say is "Faith will lead you to good places."

You are a stranger to me, but as Rumi says, as two drunks know each other, two lovers of god know each other. I Care for you in only the way a person who loves people does, but I sincerely hope find your way in life.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I am leaving Hinduism, so to speak. For you see, having been raised without religious Barriers I just sort of wander in and out of religions as I please. I can never truly leave Hinduism, as that is part of my heritage. It's in my blood.
But at the same time I do not feel bound to any one path nor do I feel any real obligation to just one "truth" as it were. I just sort of go to whatever my spirit feels drawn to. Mainly that is Lord Jesus Christ and Mata Kali. I will never leave the Mother's side though, as I feel too connected to her. Even after my father died and I entered a sort of angry teenage rejection of God stage, I couldn't forsake or disparage her in my heart. I'd like to think she was really patient with me, though, as all loving mothers are.

 

[Kalibhakta]

Saint Ramakrishna, bless his heart, loved all the worlds religions. He was a Christian, then a Muslim. He was even an Atheist Adventa for a period. I have strange tastes and sympathizes in the world religions too. Having an open mind is good. I cannot and will not judge you for that.

Mother is the best gift anybody can have.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Jai Mata Ji!

At this moment when there are threads denigrating the belief in anything but one lineage let us remember that without Mata ji there would be no such lineage for She is Shakti, Power, energy and motion, and without our most glorious Mother we, and they, would be nothing.

To you Mother do I offer all acts, all thoughts and all desires for it is You and You alone that fulfils all promises, all pleas.

It is my greatest desire, oh Mata ji, that rather than finding liberation and moksha that I return again and again to serve You and spread Your love for all of creation.

Jai Mata Ji!
OM Aim Hrim Klim Chamundayai Vicche

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Jai Mata Di!
Lakshmi Mata ki Jai!
Jai Ambe Gauri!

=)

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have the strange view that Sekhmet is a form of Mother Kali.

Now then, to compare:

Kalibhakta, I did not acknowledge your above post, which I do now. Yes, there are great similarities. And Goddess Pratyangira is supposed to be a mix of Vishnu, Narasimha, Durga and Kali. Well, that is what Wikipedia mentions. Though I too am surprised as to why a God and a Goddess and their avataras will mix up. Perhaps the writer of the line meant that Pratyangira as attributes/armaments/iconography of these four. Wikipedia also informs me that Indrajit was worshiping Pratyangira during the Lanka battle before Lord Hanuman angered and distracted him from the worship. Had he completed that, he would have become invincible.

Jai Mata Di

 

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

I merely wish to say, it is good to see activity in this thread again

JAI MATA DI

 

[DeviChaaya]

It is my favourite thread! Any thread that talks about Mata ji fills me with joy and excitement.

Jai Ambe Gauri