Shedding blood in the name of God.

[Adstar]

There has been a lot of talk about Christians smashing children against rocks. This scripture is a prophecy of what will happen in the future to the spiritual whore of Babylon. At not time did the scripture say thet we Christians would be carrying out this deed. In fact I will show you through scripture that it will be evil men lead by the anti-christ that will be carrying out this evil deed.

The scripture in question:
Psalm 137
8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed,
Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock!

Now let us go to the prophet Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 50
41 “ Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.

Here is another prophesy from the prophet Zechariah:

Zechariah 2
7 “Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.”
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. 9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.

Now after reading the above from the OT, lets go to the Book of Revelation in the NT. Note how they mesh in with the end times prophesies detailed here:

Revelation 17
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Now here is the clincher, the Revelation as to who will be the force that will destroy the Harlot of Babylon:

Revelation 17
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

That’s right it will be the forces of the beast who will be smash their children against the rocks.

Here Revelation 18 gives the same clear warning as Zechariah 2 does to all true followers of God.

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

So just because an event is prophesised in the bible and the enemies of God are being destroyed it does not mean that followers of God are carrying out that destruction. The bible must be read as a whole not in isolated verses.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jeffrey]

Still amazes me how people twist things to fill an agenda.

 

[Booko]

I'm not saying this is all on Christianity. As has been mentioned, many religions are guilty of bloodshed in the name of their deity. I just don't like that some think that there are two different Christianities. The "true" one and the "false" one. It really isn't upon anyone to decide who is and is not a "true" Chrsitian just because they don't see their own religion a certain way. You take the good with the bad and learn to accept both. It should show a growth of religion. If so many religions are guilty of it then it is not hard to believe that Christianity is guilty as well. It is no better than others. However, how the religion is being represented today in comparison to the past should show growth and that is something at least, that one could be proud of.

I don't particularly like getting into the "true" and "false" thing either.

But I do think it can be of use to examine the teachings of a religion and ask: If we put this into action, would the world be better or worse? In the case of Christianity, if we put the Gospels into action, would the world be better? I happen to think so.

otoh, the ideal that's taught in any religion is not always put into practice 100%, because of the human factor. So I also ask the question "are the institutions of the faith working?"

Sometimes it's accurate to say that the religion as taught is fine, but the institutions at a particular time are really not.

Fortunately, the pendulum swings for religious institutions, and they find their way back again.

 

[Booko]

Jeremiah 50
41 “ Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.

I hope you are not implying this applies to current events.

 

[Halcyon]

Correction, that was the official religion of state at the time. We are in this world but we are not play the harlot with the powers of this world. They where descendants of the ones who abandoned the true faith and got into bed with Constantine and made spiritual whores of themselves with the kings of this world. There has always been true Christians in this world in spite of the churches not because of the churches. Before those times Christians died in the coliseums like true Christians after that the only thing that changed change was that true Christians where burnt as heretics at the stake by false christians of the official religion of state.

Where is your evidence for these claims?
The Catholic Church vehemently wiped out all opposition as evidenced by the Albigensian Crusade, the church split into two, one centred on Rome the other on Constantinople.
And it wasn't until public support was overwhelming that protestant churches could separate without much fear of reprisals.
Where is your evidence of 'true' Christians existing outside of this timeline?

 

[dawny0826]

Covenants. The Jews are not under the "new" covenant. So, if you saw film of the Israeli army taking Arab babies and smashing them against rocks, doing this with glee, what would you think? If they went into a palestine village, killed everyone except the virgins, which they took hostage and raped, what would you think?

Jeffrey, I believe that much of what God mandated throughout the OT of the Bible in the way of laws and punishments for the violation of laws was specific for His people of THAT time frame. Further, God has DELIVERED his people from Eqypt...and was establishing law and order with them...if you read the OT of the Bible...His people CONTINUOUSLY doubted him...continuously sinned against Him...and they had SEEN first hand God's miracles.

The scenario you described is disgusting. What do you think I would think of something like that?

I would imagine the Jewish people have ceased to use death as punishment for the very same reason that they no longer sacrifice animals and follow the precise rules for becoming clean...as mandated in the Bible. Different times. I'm not Jewish...I believe the Jews to be a very spiritual people who DO atone for their sins...the MANNER in which they atone is different because times have changed.

 

[dawny0826]

I'll state this again. Man makes excuses for killing. NEVER will I believe that God has ever condoned these actions.

And that makes sense...as you do not accept the God of the OT...who I believe is ONE and the SAME as Christ.

Hence...to each his/her own.

We'll never see eye to eye here because you'll only discount any scripture which explains WHY God has acted as He has in the past.

You'll find that underlying REASON has always been man's defiance.

 

[dawny0826]

You never answered the post before that.

Jeffrey, we've already established that you and I view God very differently. You accept the NT concept of God...you accept Christ but apparantly you do not believe that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are one in the same.

You believe that God would never condone killing...

And to a very LARGE degree, I agree...the Ten Commandments were established with Moses...and then Christ reiterated the Ten Commandments in the NT.

You don't have to accept it as truth...but whether or not you believe...it's there...in the Word...God Almighty has killed man and has instructed that the death for certain punishments would be death. End of story. Naturally, you don't believe this...because you don't subscribe to the OT God. Fine.

These punishments are no longer applicable...because we (those who are Christian) are bound to different laws.

I believe that God's actions were/are ALWAYS justified. And I don't think that you do.

 

[Bishka]

I agree with what Dawny has said, very well said.

I also believe Dawny that Jesus was Jehovah of the Old Testament (that's what you said, right?)

 

[dawny0826]

I agree with what Dawny has said, very well said.

I also believe Dawny that Jesus was Jehovah of the Old Testament (that's what you said, right?)

We believe the same. :flower:

 

[Bishka]

We believe the same. :flower:

That's wonderful.

 

[bunny1ohio]

Please correct me if I'm wrong...perhaps I'm misinformed...

But I was under the impressino that most blood shed over God and/or Christianity was to defend the right to worship God/and or Christianity...not to murder those in opposition...unless you're speaking of the Burning Times...and most Christians will tell you...those who claimed to be Christian and burnt innocent people at the stake...weren't Christians...

well Dawny I guess it depends on which war you're talking about. The Crusades were not fought to defend the right to worship... they were fought to gain more people, money and land, and if the "infidels" wouldn't convert they were killed. They were fighting a "Holy War" in the name of G-d. They searched for holy relics to take home *in other words they looted everything they could find*. etc etc... Bear in mind I'm not knocking you or Christianity here.... just about every religion throughout history has had enough zealots at some point to put together a good battle

 

[jeffrey]

Dawny, try READING what I but, not making things up of what I said, which you do so much of.

 

[jeffrey]

So.. We got a God that has "his people" murder women and violently kill innocent children, rape women, then sends his son, does a complete 180, except for hating gays... But wait... Jesus never said too...but the people still murder and rape in the name of God. You can believe in a God of hate and revenge, of jealousy, Your choice. I choose to think of God as love..

 

[jeffrey]

And because someone wrote it down as fact over 2,000 years ago, it must be true! Hell, people still though the world was flat 600 years ago. Because they were told it was.

 

[Booko]

And because someone wrote it down as fact over 2,000 years ago, it must be true! Hell, people still though the world was flat 600 years ago. Because they were told it was.

Uh...Jeffrey? Just because someone wrote it down 2000 years ago does at least mean one thing: it's probably not wise to read it like a modern history book.

Oh yeah, it's probably not so wise to read it from the pov of our culture and not theirs either. e.g. At that time, a "people" was a rather small group, very capable of being wiped off the map. So if you wanted your neighbors to leave you alone, it would help to circulate tales about how tough you are.

I expect there was some sort of "invasion" of Canaan, and I expect it wouldn't have been nice on the receiving end, because when it is?

The other thing that hasn't been touched on in this discussion is the idea of "community consequences." You don't have to put God into the picture to have this discussion, and sometimes it even muddies the waters. Karma works just as well as God for a discussion like that. (Or maybe that's another thread.)

 

[jeffrey]

That's my point! They are stories. Maybe written for the reasons you have stated. They are not to be taken literally. Like I have stated, To me, God is love, not hate. Christ preached love everyone, including your enemies.

 

[Booko]

That's my point! They are stories. Maybe written for the reasons you have stated. They are not to be taken literally. Like I have stated, To me, God is love, not hate. Christ preached love everyone, including your enemies.

True, but I do think it's possible that Moses ordered the invasion of Canaan. I mean, the residents were not just going to move out of the way without a fight, were they?

It's just that, I see that law was abrogated by later prophets.

In Christianity, there was no need for Christians to defend themselves on a community level, so there was no law allowing war.

In the case of Islam, war in self-defense is allowed, and historically there were occasions in the earliest days of that faith when it could have been wiped out by the Quraysh.

And now we come to our times. Who could argue that Baha'is would ever need to resort to violence to prevent the Baha'i community from being wiped out entirely? We're the most widespread religion except for Christianity. Things may get crazy, but not that crazy everywhere. So of course, Baha'u'llah has abrogated the law that allows for any form of violence:

"Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men's hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God's mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 25)

The good news, from my pov, is that from here on this law will not change. Humanity is heading into a time where this sort of violence will be rendered moot.

YMMV, of course.

 

[jeffrey]

Well said. :clap

 

[Bishka]

Dawny, try READING what I but, not making things up of what I said, which you do so much of.

Are you saying Dawny makes up things?