Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

[AK4]

148 pages later.

Has anyone actually defined what God is, so that they can prove God exists yet?

Or did we accept that this thread is actually about Jehova?

I did a couple pages back.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

148 pages later.

Has anyone actually defined what God is, so that they can prove God exists yet?

Or did we accept that this thread is actually about Jehova?

AFAIK, we've only had one definition given for God, and it was attributed to the Bible:

I stick to the scriptural definition. It says God is love. Yes that "love" is all encompassing. Going beyond what the scriptures say is God can lead to heresy. So now you have the definition plus i stated earlier about the fruits of God, you have your definition of what God is.

Do you have another definition we can try? I think I've disproven God-who-is-all-encompassing-love (even if AK4 won't admit it), so it might be good to move on to another God.

 

[AK4]

no great flood?
no women turnign into pillars of salt?
no men talking to burning bushes?
no fishes multiplyign themselves in a basket?

:sarcastic

the bible is the truth I tell you!
dagnammit

-great flood that flooded the local known land, not the globe
-pillar of salt---who knows, maybe she was unlucky enough in some kind of meteorite striking and that happen and lot was lucky not to be harmed [at least in the same way]---this is possible you know
-well only Moses and God would know for sure
-fishes multiplying---cant prove or disprove that one, thats why its called a miracle

Nice try though

 

[AK4]

Do you have another definition we can try? I think I've disproven God-who-is-all-encompassing-love (even if AK4 won't admit it), so it might be good to move on to another God.

Come on now you didnt disprove that at all. you just dont understand the concept of an evil that may be done out of love like parents spanking their kids. The spanking is a form of evil but it is for the good of the child. Here read this maybe thisll help ya

I am sorry that I don't know your name, but thank you for you interest and your email.

Christianity does not give you a straight answer because the doctrines of Christianity contradict most of the truths of God's Word.

There are answers, however.

I will give you some of the reason "why we are here."

A great and wise creator GOD PUT US HERE. He started the human family.

God is not stupid, He had a grand and eternal purpose in mind for making mankind.

God has many attributes, powers, knowledge, etc., that obviously mankind DOES NOT. But, God DOES WANT us to have those same attributes, especially LOVE!

Qualities of character such as Love are not instantaneously created, they must be developed. That development takes a creation, circumstances, and time. And so, God creates all these things necessary for their development.

Although God is GOOD, He nonetheless has a knowledge and understanding of both good AND EVIL. And so we TOO much come to an understanding of both good and evil. Why? Because ALL KNOWLEDGE hinges on their proper understanding.

People say things without ever realizing how stupid or impossible their thoughts or statements are. Most Christians suppose that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, then we all would STILL, right now, be enjoying the beautiful life of happiness and bliss in a fabulous garden of Eden. NOT SO!!! Adam and Eve did NOT appreciate what they had with God in the garden before they sinned. They had NO CONTRAST to compare it with.

Now here is a key piece of understanding and wisdom. God wants CHILDREN. God is building a FAMILY. Children are to grow up and have the attributes of their parents. But these things must be LEARNED BY EXPERIENCE! Not only didn't Adam and Eve appreciate what they had, they ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT have appreciated what they had, because they experienced ONLY GOOD.

Try to come up with even ONE VIRTUE, such as love, patience, honesty, goodness, faithfulness, loyalty, obedience, bravery, etc., etc., etc., ANYTHING of a virtuous nature, that does not involve the overcoming of SOME FORM OF EVIL! There is you answer! There IS NO VIRTUE, NO CHARACTER, NO STABILITY of any kind in any one, except he overcomes some form of EVIL.

Now can you see why we are here? Now can you see why there is not only good, but so much evil in the world? It is necessary! God did not put it here simply to make us miserable! God is NOT in a battle for supremacy with Satan. God CREATED Satan. God USES Satan. And Satan too, will be saved after he has done all of his dirty work. God will make him repent.

God is enlarging His family into BILLIONS of sons and daughters. This life is part of the training ground to be the very SONS OF GOD.

All evil including DEATH itself will be abolished when God has used them to bring His family to a level of love and righteousness that He desires. We will then inherit all that God has and all that God is. God is truly OUR FATHER.

I hope that helps your understanding a little better. Life will not always be miserable and painful as it may seem to you now. This too shall pass

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Come on now you didnt disprove that at all. you just dont understand the concept of an evil that may be done out of love like parents spanking their kids. The spanking is a form of evil but it is for the good of the child.

No - if it's good, then it's not evil. One action can't be both.

If it's wrong for the parent to spank the child, then it's evil (maybe mild evil, but still evil). If it's right for the parent to spank the child, then it's good.

An action can no more be both good and evil than a number can be both positive and negative.

See how it works?

 

[McBell]

No its not. Only when one can only see literal and is duped by what the so called experts say a verse means, then you have contradictions. Again i refer you to what we were talking about before of only a few will know what the scriptures teach. From Jesus--

Mt 13:11 -He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you [the true disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the "them" here was those who did listen to Jesus and His teachings and did believe somewhat that He was at least a prophet] it is not given.
So what does that say about those who didnt even believe at all? It really is not given unto them no ANY mysteries of the kingdom of heaven

Interesting that you have to add so much to the verse to get it to say what you want it to say.

Ive never said that. But that is part of it. I also stress that the scriptures must mesh with science also. i.e. you cant have six literal days of creation and the earth being millions of years old. We know the science is true, so either the bible is false or we have bad translation and understanding. Since the word for day also means a time, season, year, years, chronicle, etc---it fits or meshes with science

The scriptures mesh up with science?
Oh you mean pseudoscience.

Really? you might wanna reconsider that since Jesus is the God of the OT.

And there is no empirical evidence for either one.
I stand by what I said.

Wow!!!:thud: Did you actually mean this? Nah i refuse to believe that you meant what you said here because do you actually see what that says about you?

What do YOU think it says about me?
Perhaps you are under some delusion that your gods rules apply to me?

this was what i was thinking you guys would say

What did I say?
I do not recall saying it.
I do recall asking a question though.
Are you going to answer it?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Really? No Archeological findings, no temple destruction in 70 AD, no great egyptian, babylonian, assyrian empire and on and on.

No great Exodus, no world wide flood, no Eden, no extra long day, no 'sun moving backwards', no unicorns, no cockatrice, no talking donkey, no parting of the sea by Moses, no resurrection of the saints and their subsequent appearance to many, no virgin birth, no resurrection of Jesus with witnesses, no historical records of Moses, no historical records of Daniel, no scientific basis for the Creation myth. and on and on...

 

[Mr Cheese]

-
-pillar of salt---who knows, maybe she was unlucky enough in some kind of meteorite striking and that happen and lot was lucky not to be harmed [at least in the same way]---this is possible you know

Yeah its as likely, if you knew anythign about "meteorites"
its as likely as flying spider monkeys appearing from Sarah Palin's genitals...

:sarcastic in retrospect, they are both very likely

 

[Mr Cheese]

No great Exodus, no world wide flood, no Eden, no extra long day, no 'sun moving backwards', no unicorns, no cockatrice, no talking donkey, no parting of the sea by Moses, no resurrection of the saints and their subsequent appearance to many, no virgin birth, no resurrection of Jesus with witnesses, no historical records of Moses, no historical records of Daniel, no scientific basis for the Creation myth. and on and on...

I like the leviathan ...

christians often say..well it must have been a dinosaur!

As fort the mating with angels bit....

I think thats part of the hard core porn that is a major part of bits of the bible...we wont mention the Godly commanded rapes etc

 

[Mr Cheese]

Do you have another definition we can try? I think I've disproven God-who-is-all-encompassing-love (even if AK4 won't admit it), so it might be good to move on to another God.

no, I have no definition
and as I have already argued, thats the point.
You can't define God, you'd be there for the rest of your life.
And still fail.

Which means "proving God" as is the basis for this thread....is nonsense
But then, the original poster has already admitted this

so why is this thread still active?

Maybe its Sarah Palin's vaginal spider monkeys?

 

[AK4]

Nor is there anything to substantiate the Bible.

Now, prove leprechauns do not exist.

Along with my previous post, let me add this

Archaeological Support For The New Testament

 

[tumbleweed41]

-great flood that flooded the local known land, not the globe

Not Biblical but nice try though.
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

-pillar of salt---who knows, maybe she was unlucky enough in some kind of meteorite striking and that happen and lot was lucky not to be harmed [at least in the same way]---this is possible you know

Not Biblical, but nice try though.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

-well only Moses and God would know for sure

Indeed.

-fishes multiplying---cant prove or disprove that one, thats why its called a miracle

No proof exists for "miracles", like the burning bush myth this is unverifiable and falls under unsubstantiated beliefs.

Nice try though

By your own admission and apologetics you have confirmed that the Bible is a body of widely held but false or unsubstantiated beliefs.

By attempting to justify obvious myths and fallacies, you confirm the unsubstantiality of the Bible.

Now, prove that Leprechauns do not exist.

 

[johnhanks]

its as likely as flying spider monkeys appearing from Sarah Palin's genitals...

Oh, thanks a bunch. Now I'm really looking forward to tonight's dreams.

 

[AK4]

If all you had was that book, your damn right.
But then, there is much more evidence for ceasar than there is for Jesus or your God.

As for literature evidence, try this one and this is just the NT

II. THE "BIBLIOGRAPHICAL TEST" FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT

A. HOW MANY COPIES OF NEW TESTAMENT MANUSCRIPTS ARE AVAILABLE?
1. Over 4,000 Greek manuscripts; 13,000 copies of portions of the
New Testament in Greek!
2. Compare this with other ancient historical writings:
a. Caesar's "Gallic Wars" - only 10 Greek manuscripts
b. "Annals" of Tacitus - 2
c. Livy - 20; Plato - 7; Sophocles - 100

B. WHERE WERE THESE COPIES FOUND?
1. Various places: Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Italy
2. Such varied locations would make COLLUSION very difficult

C. WHAT LENGTH OF TIME PASSED BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL AND THE EARLIEST
COPIES?
1. We saw in the previous lesson that several PAPYRI FRAGMENTS
have been dated to within 50-100 years
2. We have several nearly complete New Testament GREEK MANUSCRIPTS
which were copied within 300-400 years, for example:
a. Codex Sinaiticus, found near Mt. Sinai
b. Codex Alexandrinus, found near Alexandria in Egypt
c. Codex Vaticanus, located at the Vatican in Rome
3. But COMPARE THIS WITH MANUSCRIPTS OF VARIOUS CLASSICAL
HISTORIES:
a. "Histories of Thucydides" - earliest copy is 1300 years
removed from the original
b. "Histories of Herodotus" - earliest copy is 1350 years
removed from the original
c. Caesar's "Gallic War" - 950 years
d. Roman History of Livy - 350 years (and the earliest copy is
only a fragment)
e. "Histories" of Tacitus - 750 years
f. "Annals" of Tacitus - 950 years (and there are only two
manuscripts)

I tell ya, the hypocrosy and biasedness of today. Now what was that you were saying about my God and hypocrosy and what that says about you?

Seems to me that it is your deity that dislikes hypocrisy.
Thus it would mean that YOU are the one who is not to be a hypocrite.
It is not my fault that you follow a deity that frowns on hypocrisy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no, I have no definition
and as I have already argued, thats the point.
You can't define God, you'd be there for the rest of your life.
And still fail.

Which means "proving God" as is the basis for this thread....is nonsense
But then, the original poster has already admitted this

I haven't encountered a belief of God yet that didn't define God in some way.

If you can't define God at all, then you can't meaningfully discuss God at all either. To the extent that God is a meaningful concept, God is also a falsifiable concept. If God is undefinable, then "God" is just an empty word... there would be no need to "disprove" God, because God would have no impact on our lives or thought whatsoever.

 

[AK4]

Not Biblical but nice try though.
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

There is a big difference in biblical and scriptural. You need to look up what the meaning of words are because using your argument then “Cain was removed from the face of the earth” also. Where did he go? Mars? See how ridiculous that is. Now the word for earth is “erets”---land, earth etc etc. Now replace earth in both of those places with land and see what you get.

Not Biblical, but nice try though.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

What happens to the people at pompei? What happened to those over in Japan in WW2? Like I said who knows what directly happened to her.

No proof exists for "miracles", like the burning bush myth this is unverifiable and falls under unsubstantiated beliefs.

Define miracle because I could easily use the argument “the miracle of birth”.
By your own admission and apologetics you have confirmed that the Bible is a body of widely held but false or unsubstantiated beliefs.

By attempting to justify obvious myths and fallacies, you confirm the unsubstantiality of the Bible.

Now, prove that Leprechauns do not exist.

You keep trying yet you don’t know the true scriptures. Before claiming something please make sure what you are arguing is correct. I understand most don’t know of concordances and lexicons and such so im not being harsh on you.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Examples of unsubstantiated beliefs...
Creation.
Noah's Ark.
Lot's wife turned to salt.
Slavery of Joseph.
Birth of Moses.
Princeship of Moses.
Israelite slavery in Egypt.
Mass exodus of Israelites from Egypt.
Burning bush as God.
Talking donkeys.
Spiritual/physical impregnation of a virgin.
Water to wine miracle.
Healing miracles.
Raising of the dead.
Miraculous feeding of multitudes.
Trial of Jesus.
Crucifixion of Jesus.
Resurrection of Jesus.
Bodily lifting of Jesus to "heaven".
Saul blinded by God.
Miraculous healing of Saul/Paul.
Leprechauns.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is a big difference in biblical and scriptural. You need to look up what the meaning of words are because using your argument then “Cain was removed from the face of the earth” also. Where did he go? Mars? See how ridiculous that is. Now the word for earth is “erets”---land, earth etc etc. Now replace earth in both of those places with land and see what you get.

Perhaps you should read over the entire story again and see how the myth entails the entire World.
Either way, it is an unsubstantiated belief.

What happens to the people at pompei? What happened to those over in Japan in WW2? Like I said who knows what directly happened to her.

The correct translation is "Salt", however you are free to inject meteorites, volcanic ash and radiation if you like.
It is still an unsubstantiated belief.

You keep trying yet you don’t know the true scriptures. Before claiming something please make sure what you are arguing is correct. I understand most don’t know of concordances and lexicons and such so im not being harsh on you.

I am well aware of Concordances and Lexicons. I am also aware of Christian apologetics and reliance on unsubstantiated belief.

 

[AK4]

Examples of unsubstantiated beliefs...
Creation.
Noah's Ark.
Lot's wife turned to salt.
Slavery of Joseph.
Birth of Moses.
Princeship of Moses.
Israelite slavery in Egypt.
Mass exodus of Israelites from Egypt.
Burning bush as God.
Talking donkeys.
Spiritual/physical impregnation of a virgin.
Water to wine miracle.
Healing miracles.
Raising of the dead.
Miraculous feeding of multitudes.
Trial of Jesus.
Crucifixion of Jesus.
Resurrection of Jesus.
Bodily lifting of Jesus to "heaven".
Saul blinded by God.
Miraculous healing of Saul/Paul.
Leprechauns.

Ha. I like how you slipped in leprechauns. Granted i personally could answer them all but im sure the info is out there on everyone of those. Let me hit a few



Creation.---Science substantiates
Noah's Ark.---Something mentioned of it in secular writings, well at least of the flood, Josephus is one

Israelite slavery in Egypt.---i thought they found something on this? I will have to re-research this

Talking donkeys.---aint it amasing how many different animals we have taught forms of speech to. So this is not completely ruled out


Raising of the dead.---Doctors this day and age raise many people "from the dead".

Trial of Jesus.---some jewish materials substantiate this [and they didnt like Him]
Crucifixion of Jesus.---same as above and then some
Resurrection of Jesus.---same as above and then some

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Creation.---Science substantiates

Science contradicts.

Noah's Ark.---Something mentioned of it in secular writings, well at least of the flood, Josephus is one

Exactly where does Josephus mention the flood?

Israelite slavery in Egypt.---i thought they found something on this? I will have to re-research this

Yes, they found something on this: the Israelite civilization that arose in Canaan developed from the people who lived there all along, and the archaeological signs that we'd expect if a large group of people displaced the indigenous people just aren't there.

Raising of the dead.---Doctors this day and age raise many people "from the dead".

No, doctors have gotten better and better at recognizing that people who may appear dead may not be actually dead.