Should Christians Be Keeping the Sabbath?

[psychoslice]

Ah, who worships the sun ? Gentile Christians began keeping sunday, the day of the resurection, around 100 AD a long time. Yes, the Jews have kept the sabbath for a long time, they know it is a covenant sign between they and God, THEY and God, Jews, not Gentiles

Another excuse.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Last, first, I am not too concerned about Hebrew, I am much more concerned about New Testament Greek.
You think Paul is not an authority ? He was a Pharisee, educated in Jerusalem by one of the great Rabbi's of the time, and he worked hand in hand with the Temple leaders in murdering Christians.

According to ...

... Paul and his companion. ​

 

[psychoslice]

Sunday actually made very little headway as a Christian day of rest until the time of Constantine in the fourth century. Constantine was emperor of Rome from AD 306 to 337. He was a sun worshiper during the first years of his reign. Later, he professed conversion to Christianity, but at heart remained a devotee of the sun. Edward Gibbon says, “The Sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine.”i

Constantine's Conversion by Peter Paul Rubens

Source: Wikimedia Commons.

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Constantine's Conversion by Peter Paul Rubens
Source: Wikimedia Commons....


Constantine created the earliest Sunday law known to history in AD 321. It says this:

On the venerable Day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another Day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[URL='http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_change_Constantine#footnoteii']ii

Chamber’s Encyclopedia says this:[/URL]

 

[rosends]

Huh? Why would I pronounce ישוע "yeyshuwa"?

Because there is a tserei under the yod, not a segol

 

[shmogie]

Why would Romans 13 be deemed at all authoritative?

Because the entire Christian world deems it authoritative. If we are going to speak past each other because we each use a different ruler, then communication of any value is futile. If you use Einstein to explain gravity, and I use Sir Issac Newton................................................................
I will tell you what Rom. 13 says, you decide if it speaks with any authority paraphrase, "God has given the power of the sword to agents of the government to punish evil doers. If you want to live a peaceful life, do not do evil"
But, I ubnderstand, yiu are under the athority of the Torah and Talmud, I am under the authority of the law of Christ and the NT.

 

[rosends]

Last, first, I am not too concerned about Hebrew, I am much more concerned about New Testament Greek.

And how is Yeshua spelled in Greek? Is it a transliteration of the Hebrew? If so, it indicates that the Greek writer can't read Hebrew.

You think Paul is not an authority ? He was a Pharisee, educated in Jerusalem by one of the great Rabbi's of the time, and he worked hand in hand with the Temple leaders in murdering Christians. His knowledge and zeal of and for Judaism cannot be questioned. I would humbly suggest that both were probably in excess of yours.,

That's your opinion. I wonder if he even existed and if he did, he clearly wasn't a very good Jew and held no authority within Judaism. I bet I know a bunch more than he did. And the whole "temple leaders murdering Christians"? Not really a reliable story.

As to your definition of a covenant. Wrong, a covenant relationship can exist between individuals, between groups, or any combination thereof. A covenant is a legal agreement, a promise based upon certain actions.

You should look up the verse which describes between whom the covenant of the sabbath is. It says "Between me [God} and the children of Israel." It explicitly says it is with a group. So claiming it is satisfied by an individual makes no sense.

As to the "linguistic angles", re fulfill and satisfy, I know English, I know the NT Greek I am not wrong.

Yes, you are. Next time you are pulled over for speeding on a Tuesday, try to claim to the cop that you fulfilled the law by driving the speed limit on Monday.

The Jews didn't fail ? At the time of the Diaspora, they had converted very few Gentiles.

There is no requirement in Judaism to convert anyone. Your claim of failure is based on a false expectation. They were punished for their sins and failures as God's people, but did not fail in their identity and held on to the promise of redemption and the continuation of the relationship with God. We still do.

 

[shmogie]

Another excuse.

I notice you don';t post evidence, only call evidence "excuses". Do you not understand that the Jews recognize that the sabbath was a sign, given to them in perpetuity. They understand Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath. Ask those on this forum or elsewhere, and see.
As to Constantine, he is always the bogeyman that comes out sooner or later for those who want to compel Christians to keep the sabbath. By the time he converted to Christianity, Gentile Christians had been keeping sunday for two centuries. The post apostolic historian Eusebius makes this abundantly clear.
Constantine was persecuting Jews in his edict, not Christians. All the blather about Christians somehow honoring or worshiping a sun god is idiotic.
Christ arose on sunday, after his Resurrection, he reappeared 7 times in the NT. the day of the week is identified 5 times. Each time was sunday. Since Gentile Christians are not bound by the sabbath, they chose sunday in honor of these facts. They could have chosen tuesday, it would have been fine.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Actually, there is not, and the early church struggled with this when selecting the canon in the 4th century.

(above from post 689) That's pretty significant, and sometimes it really seems like Paul is at odds with himself. The clearest example is when he discusses Jews. See this page: Paul's Contradictions - Can They Be Resolved?

Also
@shmogie

If you follow the link there are two sets of passages all written by 'Paul'. Some appear to see Judaism as valid, and some seem to see Judaism as invalid.

 

[shmogie]

And how is Yeshua spelled in Greek? Is it a transliteration of the Hebrew? If so, it indicates that the Greek writer can't read Hebrew.

That's your opinion. I wonder if he even existed and if he did, he clearly wasn't a very good Jew and held no authority within Judaism. I bet I know a bunch more than he did. And the whole "temple leaders murdering Christians"? Not really a reliable story.

You should look up the verse which describes between whom the covenant of the sabbath is. It says "Between me [God} and the children of Israel." It explicitly says it is with a group. So claiming it is satisfied by an individual makes no sense.

Yes, you are. Next time you are pulled over for speeding on a Tuesday, try to claim to the cop that you fulfilled the law by driving the speed limit on Monday.

There is no requirement in Judaism to convert anyone. Your claim of failure is based on a false expectation. They were punished for their sins and failures as God's people, but did not fail in their identity and held on to the promise of redemption and the continuation of the relationship with God. We still do.

So, because one covenant is between God and Israel, all must be ? Tell me exactly where the Torah says this.My degrees, training and experience are in the law. The term covenant is used in many legal instruments and contracts.

Sorry, but your opinion of Paul holds as much weight with me as a fragment of spider web. Doubters abound, they doubt Moses existed, or David, or Christ, or you, Paul. I know what is true. period.

Are you not capable of grasping the difference between mans law applied to man, and God, and law applied spiritually. Christ said " render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God;'s" Get it ? your speeding ticket illustration has no relevance to the discussion,.

I am sorry that you still exhibit the arrogant attitude of the Jews at the time of the diaspora, yes they were punished for that arrogance among other things. You probably believe that God is only concerned about redemption for the Jews. Well, redemption came in your Messiah, he said his message was for Israel first, then the world, Israel missed it, we have it, you need it. The Jewish mind did not grasp God being God of all humanity, they took a precious gift, and instead of sharing it, they hoarded it. Too bad. They will remain a tiny minority. Relying on a less and less Christian nation for survival.

 

[shmogie]

(above from post 689) That's pretty significant, and sometimes it really seems like Paul is at odds with himself. The clearest example is when he discusses Jews. See this page: Paul's Contradictions - Can They Be Resolved?

Also
@shmogie

If you follow the link there are two sets of passages all written by 'Paul'. Some appear to see Judaism as valid, and some seem to see Judaism as invalid.

I will read the page., Once again, some believe Paul is in harmony, others not. I think the key is when in history he is referencing the Jews. I will let you know what I think of the page.

thanks !

 

[Desert Snake]

(above from post 689) That's pretty significant, and sometimes it really seems like Paul is at odds with himself. The clearest example is when he discusses Jews. See this page: Paul's Contradictions - Can They Be Resolved?

Also
@shmogie

If you follow the link there are two sets of passages all written by 'Paul'. Some appear to see Judaism as valid, and some seem to see Judaism as invalid.

I assume what is presented is the seeming paradox between presenting the Jewish law a legit, but the Xian laws a legit, as well. No contradiction, imo. It seems quite plain, the laws are different, but relevant within their own paradigns. ie legit within their own paradigms. Whats interesting is how many xians have no jewish law adherence, I thought that that was common. oh well.

 

[shmogie]

What?! Did you not write post #734?[/Qogy from AdamUOTE]
Of course I did. Can one not share links when requested or to support a position ? I don't know their theology from Adam, they do present cogent arguments and evidence for a change in the weekly day rotaion

 

[shmogie]

I assume what is presented is the seeming paradox between presenting the Jewish law a legit, but the Xian laws a legit, as well. No contradiction, imo. It seems quite plain, the laws are different, but relevant within their own paradigns. ie legit within their own paradigms. Whats interesting is how many xians have no jewish law adherence, I thought that that was common. oh well.

Christians adhere to a law that we would say is an expanded and focused rendition of the ten commandments, minus the fourth commandment, which is for the Jews. We consider the Torah as historical and advisory. We do not consider the Talmud at all.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because there is a tserei under the yod, not a segol

Then one should pronounce it yeishua.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because the entire Christian world deems it authoritative.

I assume that much of the Christian world believes in virgin births and demon-infested pigs as well, and you are most welcome to do so. But for Jews here, Paul has somewhat less than zero authority.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am sorry that you still exhibit the arrogant attitude of the Jews at the time of the diaspora, yes they were punished for that arrogance among other things.

I object to your calling Rosends arrogant. I really don't think of him as arrogant. Maybe there is just a misunderstanding.

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, back on topic. Technically, Xians probably are not ''obligated'' to keep a Sabbath, regardless of Sunday, etc. However, that being said, it used to be common for various Xians to keep a Sunday Sabbath, and a strict one, at that.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

First. lets address "the law" , as applies to the Jews. Jews do not keep the law as it was originally given in the Torah. The Talmudic tradition of the law, developed in the first century AD, eliminated and changed many parts of the law. As an example, I know of no Jewish communities that sacrifice animals,or Jews that segregate menstruating women during their time. So, Judaism itself has changed the law.

The fact that jews have stopped obeying parts of the law does not make them right.

As for Christians , As I have said elsewhere, quoting Christ, he has fulfilled the law. What did he mean ? One of the definitions of fulfill is to "satisfy". If I murder someone, the law identifies my crime and demands my capture. The law demands I have a trial, when convicted, the law demands my punishment, when I am executed, the law is fulfilled, satisfied. It is impossible for the law to have any more effect on me. For me, the law ceases to exist.

Laws do not cease to exist once they have been enforced.

Now then, we all are guilty of heinous crimes before the law of the Torah. We all deserve death for these crimes.

Yes the old laws are rather strict and yes under them most of us deserve death.

That only means that you should try harder not to break them, not that you can ignore them.

Christ, in our place, lived the law perfectly totally without sin, through him we have and will be sinless before the law. The punishment for those crimes that we deserve before the law, he received, his death, was ours. All the demands of the law are totally fulfilled. In his death, we are dead to the law, it can have no further authority over us. The law still exists, it is forever, and those who put themselves under it, rejecting Christ's substitute live and death, must attempt to follow it, and receive it's punishments. For the Christian, there is a new law, as Paul said, "he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law " To paraphrase Martin Luther, " in Christ, it is as if I lived his life, breathed his breath, lived his life, suffered his pain, experienced his crucifixion, died his death, and was raised with him from the dead".

Do not forget

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

I am sure you would agree that the word of Jesus holds more weight than any mere human.

The law still stands, just because we as humans are unwilling to obey them and suffer the consequences does not mean we get to ignore them.

You cannot really call yourself a christian, or a jew for that matter, if you do not follow these rules.

 

[psychoslice]

I notice you don';t post evidence, only call evidence "excuses". Do you not understand that the Jews recognize that the sabbath was a sign, given to them in perpetuity. They understand Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath. Ask those on this forum or elsewhere, and see.
As to Constantine, he is always the bogeyman that comes out sooner or later for those who want to compel Christians to keep the sabbath. By the time he converted to Christianity, Gentile Christians had been keeping sunday for two centuries. The post apostolic historian Eusebius makes this abundantly clear.
Constantine was persecuting Jews in his edict, not Christians. All the blather about Christians somehow honoring or worshiping a sun god is idiotic.
Christ arose on sunday, after his Resurrection, he reappeared 7 times in the NT. the day of the week is identified 5 times. Each time was sunday. Since Gentile Christians are not bound by the sabbath, they chose sunday in honor of these facts. They could have chosen tuesday, it would have been fine.

I don't need to, its in the bible, now where in the bible does it say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, you might try to manipulate words to suit your beliefs, but that is all it will be, manipulation.

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't need to, its in the bible, now where in the bible does it say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, you might try to manipulate words to suit your beliefs, but that is all it will be, manipulation.

Saturday is in the Bible?