Should ex-Muslims be killed for renouncing their religion?

[Theweirdtophat]

You have the wrong idea, whatever you think about Isis, they are true believers.

Hypocrites are not true believers. They never will be since they go against everything the Quran stands for. I don't see how that makes them true believers. Most Muslims don't do what they do. They're just criminals with religion. Nothing more.

 

[NoX]

Hypocrites are not true believers. They never will be since they go against everything the Quran stands for. I don't see how that makes them true believers. Most Muslims don't do what they do. They're just criminals with religion. Nothing more.

Yep, they are full of criminals, especially European ones and many of them have no Islamic knowledge, their own commander said that.

 

[Rival]

Yep, they are full of criminals, especially European ones and many of them have no Islamic knowledge, their own commander said that.

They are not Europeans. They are Asians/Middle Easterners who lived in Europe and I would not count them Europeans. They were raised in Europe, perhaps, but are not European culturally or religiously, or ethnically.

 

[NoX]

They are not Europeans. They are Asians/Middle Easterners who lived in Europe and I would not count them Europeans. They were raised in Europe, perhaps, but are not European culturally or religiously, or ethnically.

They are Europeans, raised or born there, with European education system, in European environment, in other European people Europeans are also Caucasoid people who migrated to Europe from Caucasus regions and there are a huge number of ISIS members from Caucasus area. You are the same people

 

[Rival]

They are Europeans, raised or born there, with European education system, in European environment, in other European people Europeans are also Caucasoid people who migrated to Europe from Caucasus regions and there are a huge number of ISIS members from Caucasus area. You are the same people

If they are 'White' yes, if not, no. If they don't have ancestors from Europe I don't count them European. If they are ethnically Iraqi, Iranian, Pakistani etc., they are not Europeans.

 

[NoX]

If they are 'White' yes, if not, no. If they don't have ancestors from Europe I don't count them European. If they are ethnically Iraqi, Iranian, Pakistani etc., they are not Europeans.

Many of Caucasus people are dead white like a corpse. Also I dont think Europeans are white people, they are mostly yellow.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

They could be aliens for all I care. I feel it's irrelevant to declare where they came from or what their race is. They are criminals and fanatics. That's all we need to know.

 

[Cephus]

Hypocrites are not true believers. They never will be since they go against everything the Quran stands for. I don't see how that makes them true believers. Most Muslims don't do what they do. They're just criminals with religion. Nothing more.

Certainly, they don't think that they are going against "everything the Qur'an stands for". In fact, they make the case that other Muslims are heretics. That's because the Qur'an, like the Bible and every other holy book out there, can be interpreted any way that a believer wants. To Protestants, Catholics are heretics. To Catholics, Protestants are heretics. To Sunni, Shiites are heretics. To Shiites, Sunnis are heretics. Most Muslims, like most Christians, are religious in name only, they only adopt a religious label because it's socially convenient. They do some rituals, they say some magic words, but in the end, they pick and choose what they feel like believing and ignore the parts they don't. The fanatics are the ones that are the true believers, they believe what it says in their religions whether it's socially convenient or not.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Certainly, they don't think that they are going against "everything the Qur'an stands for". In fact, they make the case that other Muslims are heretics. That's because the Qur'an, like the Bible and every other holy book out there, can be interpreted any way that a believer wants. To Protestants, Catholics are heretics. To Catholics, Protestants are heretics. To Sunni, Shiites are heretics. To Shiites, Sunnis are heretics. Most Muslims, like most Christians, are religious in name only, they only adopt a religious label because it's socially convenient. They do some rituals, they say some magic words, but in the end, they pick and choose what they feel like believing and ignore the parts they don't. The fanatics are the ones that are the true believers, they believe what it says in their religions whether it's socially convenient or not.

They don't think like that but who cares what they think I would say going against the whole "There is no compulsion in the religion" part of the Quran shows they don't respect it among a number of things. There's nothing true about a whole group based on violence and deceit. They have betrayed Allah and the Quran by doing this. Of course lots of groups will claim to be "true believers". Doesn't mean they are or that they are right.

 

[Cephus]

They don't think like that but who cares what they think I would say going against the whole "There is no compulsion in the religion" part of the Quran shows they don't respect it among a number of things. There's nothing true about a whole group based on violence and deceit. They have betrayed Allah and the Quran by doing this. Of course lots of groups will claim to be "true believers". Doesn't mean they are or that they are right.

But that's how religion works. Everyone picks and chooses which parts of their holy book to take seriously. There are all kinds of things in the Bible that most Christians entirely ignore and rationalize their way around because they simply don't work in a modern social context. They can't get away with stoning unruly children or killing witches, therefore they find reasons to ignore those parts. However, in the Middle East, where most of the Muslim violence is happening, they live in an entirely different society where killing infidels is acceptable, hence they have a different view on how things are done. You're looking at things from a western perspective, pointing to Muslims who live in western societies as an example of how people ought to act, ignoring that the people you're criticizing live in a different social system. It's really comparing apples to oranges.

 

[gsa]

Yep, they are full of criminals, especially European ones and many of them have no Islamic knowledge, their own commander said that.

The vast majority of the European ones are first or second generation immigrants who were raised Muslim and hold to Islamic values. Clearly they rejected European culture and values, whatever their ethnic background is.

Moreover, the European ones are not in the leadership.

 

[Cephus]

The vast majority of the European ones are first or second generation immigrants who were raised Muslim and hold to Islamic values. Clearly they rejected European culture and values, whatever their ethnic background is.

Moreover, the European ones are not in the leadership.

Also, many of the European ones have gone back to the Middle East for "training", so saying that these people don't understand Islam is a bit silly, they sat in their training camps, maybe they ought to chalk it up to bad teaching? Also, there are plenty of Muslim "schools" in Europe and the UK, where Muslims are taught extremist views. One guy just got off because he didn't know it was wrong to rape a 13 year old girl, according to the Muslim school he attended.

 

[Muffled]

I voted yes. But this is based on the clear scripture. Apostates of islam must be killed. No question.

However, If you don't believe the scripture, then why on earth would you harm someone for turning their back on ignorant beliefs.

I haven't seen a clear scripture so I believe one must be provided.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I haven't seen a clear scripture so I believe one must be provided.

Scriptural references[edit]
§Qur'an[edit]
Quran discusses apostasy in many of its verses. For example:[24]

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

— Quran 9:66

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106

In these, and other verses,[25] Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam and suggests it deserves chastisement. However, Quran does not reveal a specific punishment for apostasy.[6] The sunnah in Hadiths, which form part of Sharia, specify death penalty.[6]

§Hadith[edit]
Within the different Hadith collections, there are references to punishments for committing apostasy in Islam.[16] For example, in the Sahih al-Bukhari, the most trusted book in Islam after Quran, punishments for apostasy are described:[26]

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

The Sahih Muslim collection, reiterates and confirms that which is in the Sahih al-Bukhari collection:[27]

"(4152) 'Abdullah (b. Mas'ūd) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact) that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community."[28]

— Sahih Muslim, 16:4152 see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4154, Sahih Muslim, 20:4490

There are many other sunnah that describe capital punishments for apostasy in Islam.[29][30]


§

 

[Vishvavajra]

Should ex-Muslims be executed for denouncing Islam?

No.

Next question?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

The General Court has sentenced to death a young Saudi man in his 20s for denouncing Islam as his faith and various other acts of blasphemy, Al-Sharq reported. A source from the court reported that the convict documented his apostasy by capturing a video and posting it on the social networking site Keek.

The source said: “In the video he cursed God, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his daughter Fatimah and ripped a copy of the Holy Qur’an and hit it with a shoe.

“The death sentence was issued after his apostasy was proven.”

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." ~ Qur-ān 2:256

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I've heard that Islam affirms that there should be no compulsion in matters of the faith, but I've also heard it said by both non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and Muslims alike that apostasy deserves a death sentence. However, I'm struggling mightily to discover any such thing stated unequivocally in the several translations of the Qur-ān that I have at my disposal. Granted, I make no claims at scholarship, nor am I taking the Hadith into account. Nevertheless, here is what I've found thus far:

"They yearn that your should disbelieve just as they have disbelieved, so that you might all be alike. Do not, therefore, take from among them confidants and allies until they emigrate (to Mahdīnah and join you) in God's cause. But if they turn away (from this call and continue their hostilities against you), seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take to yourself any of them as confidant, nor as helper." ~ Surah 4:89 from p. 207 of the interpretation of the Qur-ān by Ali Ünal.

In this case, the dictate to kill apostates appears to hinge on whether or not they're hostile.

...

The next three translations are all from the same online source (although I gather that they were all produced independently and compiled at some later date for comparative purposes):

004.089 "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks..." ~ Qur-ān Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

004.089 "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them ..." ~ Qur-ān Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall

004.089: "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper." ~ Qur-ān Translation by Mohammad Habib Shakir

Pickthall's translation echoes Ali Ünal's in that both appear to include open hostility by apostates as warranting a lethal response. Meanwhile, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation employs the word "renegade." Additionally, there appears to be some controversy regarding the translation attributed to Mohammad Habib Shakir.

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All of which appears to indicate something less than universal consensus to this infidel's eyes. However, as I scan through various online resources, it's fairly plain that to rely solely on the Qur-ān regarding this sort of doctrinal issue would certainly appear to place me in a minority (if not heretical) position.

That's if I were a Muslim, of course. Which I am not.

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"When you're a Jet,
You're a Jet all the way
From your first cigarette
To your last dyin' day."
~ from West Side Story (Music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Stephen Sondheim)

 

[Vishvavajra]

Any religion that has to use the threat of death in order to keep people from leaving it has got some very serious problems. Threats of torments in hell are bad enough, but actually straight-up murdering people for daring to realize that a religion that straight-up murders people for leaving it is worth leaving is... well, you get the picture. It wasn't right when Christians did it back in the day, it wasn't right when the Hadiths were written, and it's not right now.

 

[Muffled]

Scriptural references[edit]
§Qur'an[edit]
Quran discusses apostasy in many of its verses. For example:[24]

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

— Quran 9:66

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106

In these, and other verses,[25] Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam and suggests it deserves chastisement. However, Quran does not reveal a specific punishment for apostasy.[6] The sunnah in Hadiths, which form part of Sharia, specify death penalty.[6]

§Hadith[edit]
Within the different Hadith collections, there are references to punishments for committing apostasy in Islam.[16] For example, in the Sahih al-Bukhari, the most trusted book in Islam after Quran, punishments for apostasy are described:[26]

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

The Sahih Muslim collection, reiterates and confirms that which is in the Sahih al-Bukhari collection:[27]

"(4152) 'Abdullah (b. Mas'ūd) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact) that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community."[28]

— Sahih Muslim, 16:4152 see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4154, Sahih Muslim, 20:4490

There are many other sunnah that describe capital punishments for apostasy in Islam.[29][30]


§

I believe Hadiths are bogus and basing something that serious on questionable scripture appears pretty lame to me. It would be like a Christian basing his action on the gnostic books. (But at least Christians had enough good sense to not accept the bogus works of gnosticism)

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I believe Hadiths are bogus and basing something that serious on questionable scripture appears pretty lame to me. It would be like a Christian basing his action on the gnostic books. (But at least Christians had enough good sense to not accept the bogus works of gnosticism)

LOL, "christian...good sense.. not to accept bogus works..." lol Yea, those poor muslims being fooled by bogus scriptures like hadith...what a joke. At least you christians have the good sons to accept the infallible christian bible, and not some bogus infallible scripture..cause you all have good sense; there certainly isn't any other reason to accept the christian bible, like evidence of origin or demonstrable affects.

 

[Muffled]

LOL, "christian...good sense.. not to accept bogus works..." lol Yea, those poor muslims being fooled by bogus scriptures like hadith...what a joke. At least you christians have the good sons to accept the infallible christian bible, and not some bogus infallible scripture..cause you all have good sense; there certainly isn't any other reason to accept the christian bible, like evidence of origin or demonstrable affects.

Christians don't go by the reasonings of men which are as often false as true but by the leading of the Holy Spirit.