Should God show himself?

[PAUL MARKHAM]

pure invention

no, I woulden't have slaves because no money. If I had the money? no, because I don't have time, and if I had the time? No, because slavery not consensual, I think.

So why is it allowed in the bible?

I said I believe. Should I give evidence for this?

I gave evidence, that overrules belief.

But you can't rule out the divine... and if the divine exists, you can't rule out the miracles. Even if science would "debunk" every last miracle (which they cannot, in my opinion).

No but you have to give evidence of what did happen that would trigger Bronze Age or earlier stories around the campfires.

Adam and Eve = pure invention, Home sapiens existed long before and left Africa to populate the Earth. Homo Erectus had also developed in Africa and a few migrated out of Africa before Homo Sapiens existed.

Flood = The melting of the ice cap during the last ice age caused the black sea to flood.

Plagues of Egypt = Probably caused by the volcano exploding on Santorini and a cloud of volcanic dust polluting the Nile.

Moses and Exodus = In times of famine getting rid of foreign workers is common sense.

Parting of the Red Sea = It's actually the Reed Sea and not a great parting of the water.

All this information is available and can be found using Google. You can educate yourself or just stick with Bronze Age storytellers.

Scholars now believe that the stories that would become the Bible were disseminated by word of mouth across the centuries, in the form of oral tales and poetry – perhaps as a means of forging a collective identity among the tribes of Israel. Eventually, these stories were collated and written down.
​

The stele, which was discovered at the site of the ancient Egyptian city of Thebes in 1896, contains 28 lines of text, mostly detailing the Egyptians’ victory over the Libyans and their allies. But it is the final three lines of the inscription that has arguably excited most interest among historians.

“Israel has been shorn,” it declares. “Its seed no longer exists.” These few words constitute the first known written reference to the Israelites. It’s an inauspicious start, one that boasts of this people’s near destruction at the hands of one of the ancient world’s superpowers in their homeland of Canaan. But the Israelites would survive.

This is all there if you wish to read it. If you prefer to argue about a worm and your beliefs. Ignore this and carry on.

 

[Audie]

I am what you call "goddist". I belong to this group, I am Christian.
ok (that was your choice of words, not mine, just to be clear). You seem to be saying not all Christians are ignorant, then it's ok.


-----------

I cited a treatment according to the WHO;
but treatment is a synonym for cure accrding to cure

cure
[kūr]
1. the course of treatment of any disease, or of a special case.
2. the successful treatment of a disease or wound.
3. a system of treating diseases.
4. a medicine effective in treating a disease.

So, no lack of intellectual honesty here.

Just a total lack of reading comprehension .

 

[Trailblazer]

You continue to present your mere beliefs as facts.

You don't know, I can at least point to all the fake gurus who claim to speak to a god and then tell the people they aren't clever enough to understand.

I did not tell anyone that they are not clever enough to understand. Those are your words.

I did not present my beliefs as a fact.

I said:
I do not know either, not in the sense of being able to prove it, but I do know in another sense, a sense you cannot understand.

Go prove your god is real then teach us about it.

Nobody can prove God is real but that does not mean they cannot know God is real.

True people stuck in the past won't solve today's or tomorrow's problems. ***MOD EDIT*** The spirit world isn't solving any wars, lack of education, famine, riots, etc. Even if it were true which you have no proof of. The body dies and then decays, that is proven.

Straw man. I never said that the spirit world is going to solve any wars, lack of education, famine, riots, etc.

I said that humans will eventually solve those problems.
I said that people who are still talking about the Bible are not going to solve anything because the solutions to today's problems are not in the Bible.

I said:
People have to change the world, but people have to change themselves first....
But that will never happen as long as people remain stuck in the past, continuing to talk about the Bible and whether it is true or not.... Why would that matter now? How would that change anything?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't mean they are right either. The body dies, then decays and rots or is burned. No scientific explanation of any spirit.

Science does not deal with spiritual things because that is outside scientific purview. All science can see and study is what is in the material world, and that does not prove there is no spiritual world or afterlife.

The proof that there are different forms of afterlives are in most cultures. Make peace with yourself and go to your grave knowing you had a full life and not wasted it on false fake gurus.

There are different beliefs about the afterlife which correspond to different religions.
I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the afterlife because I am a Baha'i.
Just as I know God exists, I know the afterlife exists, and I need no concrete proof.

What is a full life, living for myself and the world of dust?
I wasted much of my life pursuing things that will not matter to my soul, so I am not going to waste any more time.
I suggest you do what you must according to your own beliefs because you are not going to change my beliefs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life.

Well, not one to believe in soul or God, and all things are otherwise also ever lasting. Science has proved that. Entropy cannot be destroyed. But surely, there were takers for Abdul Baha's snake-oil.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I did not tell anyone that they are not clever enough to understand. Those are your words.

I accused fake gurus of that.

I did not present my beliefs as a fact.

Then say these are just your beliefs.

I said:
I do not know either, not in the sense of being able to prove it, but I do know in another sense, a sense you cannot understand.

Because I'm not clever enough?

Nobody can prove God is real but that does not mean they cannot know God is real.

I can prove the nonsense written about it is untrue.

Straw man. I never said that the spirit world is going to solve any wars, lack of education, famine, riots, etc.

So stop presenting it as an alternative.

I said that humans will eventually solve those problems.
I said that people who are still talking about the Bible are not going to solve anything because the solutions to today's problems are not in the Bible.

Agreed. You will not solve a thing by endlessly giving us quotes from gurus in the past. As if one more quote will do the trick.

I said:
People have to change the world, but people have to change themselves first....
But that will never happen as long as people remain stuck in the past, continuing to talk about the Bible and whether it is true or not.... Why would that matter now? How would that change anything?

Agreed. So get yourself out of a book written by a 19th-century guru and come up with modern solutions.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Science does not deal with spiritual things because that is outside scientific purview. All science can see and study is what is in the material world, and that does not prove there is no spiritual world or afterlife.

Proving there is or isn't a spirit world solves nothing. It only matters after you're dead, until then you have to deal with real problems.

There are different beliefs about the afterlife which correspond to different religions.
I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the afterlife because I am a Baha'i.
Just as I know God exists, I know the afterlife exists, and I need no concrete proof.

You don't know god exists, you believe it exists.

What is a full life, living for myself and the world of dust?
I wasted much of my life pursuing things that will not matter to my soul, so I am not going to waste any more time.
I suggest you do what you must according to your own beliefs because you are not going to change my beliefs.

I have no desire to change your beliefs. I just will not let you post your endless messages about Bahaullah as if it will help anyone but yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed. So get yourself out of a book written by a 19th-century guru and come up with modern solutions.

I see the solutions to the problems of this age in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
If you don't like those solutions go find your own solutions.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no desire to change your beliefs. I just will not let you post your endless messages about Bahaullah as if it will help anyone but yourself.

It is you who keeps bringing it up, stop posting to me about Baha'u'llah and that will solve your problem.
You won't hear from me.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't know god exists, you believe it exists.

You cannot tell me what I know and you cannot do anything about it either.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I see the solutions to the problems of this age in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
If you don't like those solutions go find your own solutions.

What solutions to what problems?

It is you who keeps bringing it up, stop posting to me about Baha'u'llah and that will solve your problem.
You won't hear from me.

So you will stop posting all the Bahaullahn stuff, or do you just want to stop all opposition?

You cannot tell me what I know and you cannot do anything about it either.

But you want to tell us what you believe as something you know.

 

[thomas t]

Hi Paul.

So why is it allowed in the bible?

That's a very good question.
@nPeace had a thread about it here on RF, and interpreted the issue from the Jehovah Witnesses side.
I want to propose an alternative approach:
Slavery was allowed so long as the alternative would have been even worse: meaning death.
It's better to be alive and a slave than to be dead, I think.

I gave evidence, that overrules belief.

Using this method... you would overrule any miracle, I think. Since the evidence would always point to it not having been taken place. This is at least how I see it.
In my opinion, there is a limit to what evidence can clear up: when it comes to miracles, science doesn't have a tool to track them. Yet I believe in miracles.
You can't rule out that God exists. So you can't rule miracles out. That's my take.

I maintain that Adam and Eve were real. It's my belief. Even if evidence shows that human life first started somewhere else.
When God made Adam, he created him adult. Yet he was in fact one day old, when he showed all evidence of adulthood.
So here too, scientists if present that day... would have guessed and attributed a wrong age to Adam.
I stay with my opinion, when it comes to miracles, the evidence as interpreted by scientists today - and they're doing a good job - points to another direction than to the miracle having in fact happened.

I also believe the flood story of the Bible, and the Pagues of Egypt story as told in the Bible and the story of Moses and Exodus and I also believe in the parting of the sea, as described in the Bible.




Hi Audie,

Just a total lack of reading comprehension .

I don't think that I lacked reading comprehension when I read your post.

 

[Audie]

Hi Paul.

That's a very good question.
@nPeace had a thread about it here on RF, and interpreted the issue from the Jehovah Witnesses side.
I want to propose an alternative approach:
Slavery was allowed so long as the alternative would have been even worse: meaning death.
It's better to be alive and a slave than to be dead, I think.

Using this method... you would overrule any miracle, I think. Since the evidence would always point to it not having been taken place. This is at least how I see it.
In my opinion, there is a limit to what evidence can clear up: when it comes to miracles, science doesn't have a tool to track them. Yet I believe in miracles.
You can't rule out that God exists. So you can't rule miracles out. That's my take.

I maintain that Adam and Eve were real. It's my belief. Even if evidence shows that human life first started somewhere else.
When God made Adam, he created him adult. Yet he was in fact one day old, when he showed all evidence of adulthood.
So here too, scientists if present that day... would have guessed and attributed a wrong age to Adam.
I stay with my opinion, when it comes to miracles, the evidence as interpreted



Hi Audie,

I don't think that I lacked reading comprehension when I read your post.

So why do you keep saying the disease can be cured?
Is it because you feel that stopping the progression while leaving a person with legs like elephant legs is a cure?

That is quite the bit of beauty to use in the proof of gods existence and benevolence!

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Hi Paul.

That's a very good question.
@nPeace had a thread about it here on RF, and interpreted the issue from the Jehovah Witnesses side.
I want to propose an alternative approach:
Slavery was allowed so long as the alternative would have been even worse: meaning death.
It's better to be alive and a slave than to be dead, I think.

So the slaver gives 2 offers death or slavery. And that makes it right?

Using this method... you would overrule any miracle, I think. Since the evidence would always point to it not having been taken place. This is at least how I see it.
In my opinion, there is a limit to what evidence can clear up: when it comes to miracles, science doesn't have a tool to track them. Yet I believe in miracles.
You can't rule out that God exists. So you can't rule miracles out. That's my take.

Firstly one has to examine the evidence to see if the miracle took place. Creation, Flood, Plagues are just three that are proven to have happened. Creation is false as the proof shows. The flood was a local flood because the ice cap melted at the end of the ice age. Plagues of Egypt because the volcano on Santorini erupted. Jonahswallowed by a whale, unproven and if it happened you can say it was a miracle.

I maintain that Adam and Eve were real. It's my belief. Even if evidence shows that human life first started somewhere else.
When God made Adam, he created him adult. Yet he was in fact one day old, when he showed all evidence of adulthood.
So here too, scientists if present that day... would have guessed and attributed a wrong age to Adam.
I stay with my opinion, when it comes to miracles, the evidence as interpreted by scientists today - and they're doing a good job - points to another direction than to the miracle having in fact happened.

The last hominids to evolve were Homo Sapiens.

I also believe the flood story of the Bible, and the Pagues of Egypt story as told in the Bible and the story of Moses and Exodus and I also believe in the parting of the sea, as described in the Bible.

Yoy can believe in anything you want. Just don't expect others to allow you to post without comment.

 

[Audie]

Sothe slaver gives 2 offers death or slavery. Andthat makes it right?

Firstly one has to examine the evidence to see if the miracle took place. Creation, Flood, Plagues are just three that are proven to have happened. Creation is false as the proof shows. The flood was a local flood because the ice cap melted at the end of the ice age. Plagues of Egypt because the volcano on Santorini erupted. Jonahswallowed by a whale, unproven and if it happened you can say it was a miracle.

The last hominids were Homo Sapiens.

Yoy can believe in anything you want. Just don't expect others to allow you to post without comment.

Hey rape or death is an every day thing.

 

[thomas t]

So why do you keep saying the disease can be cured?

because the WHO says there is a treatment for that illness. And the dictionary says "cure" and "treatment" can be the same.
It's as I said.

---------------

Sothe slaver gives 2 offers death or slavery. Andthat makes it right?

no. It there wouldn't have been the option of slavery, prisoners of war would have been dead at that time. The army that defeated them would not have let them go free to attack them again, I think.

Firstly one has to examine the evidence to see if the miracle took place.

I don't recall a single time when science claimed miracle.
I first believe in God+miracles. Then I happen to find that miracles as described by the Bible almost never get supported by evidence.

Creation, Flood, Plagues are just three that are proven to have happened.

I was talking about the Biblical ones. Not your ones.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

no. It there wouldn't have been the option of slavery, prisoners of war would have been dead at that time. The army that defeated them would not have let them go free to attack them again, I think.

So invading, taking slaves is allowed if you offer them death or slavery afterward. This makes the Egyptians, Babylonians good guys.

I don't recall a single time when science claimed miracle.
I first believe in God+miracles. Then I happen to find that miracles as described by the Bible almost never get supported by evidence.

Neither do I because they can't find any evidence.

I was talking about the Biblical ones. Not your ones.

So the real ones aren't the biblical ones?

 

[Audie]

because the WHO says there is a treatment for that illness. And the dictionary says "cure" and "treatment" can be the same.
It's as I said.

---------------

no. It there wouldn't have been the option of slavery, prisoners of war would have been dead at that time. The army that defeated them would not have let them go free to attack them again, I think.

I don't recall a single time when science claimed miracle.
I first believe in God+miracles. Then I happen to find that miracles as described by the Bible almost never get supported by evidence.

I was talking about the Biblical ones. Not your ones.

Ok, a semantic game to salvage a false claim.

Do let us know if you would feel cured
should you leg swell to 50 lbs, and the
treatment stopped the swelling so it never got to 60 lbs.

Do you find this disease to be proof of god?
You never got around to saying.

Oh...re covid they have been very specific saying there are treatments but no cure.

 

[thomas t]

Ok, a semantic game to salvage a false claim.

Do let us know if you would feel cured
should you leg swell to 50 lbs, and the
treatment stopped the swelling so it never got to 60 lbs.

ah ok, you differenciate between cure and treatment.
I understood treatment as cure.
Ok , I think I made a mistake here.
But this is not what you called it:

Just a total lack of reading comprehension .

making one mistake is not the same as a total lack of comprehension.

Peace.

Now, there are diseases with no cure...
But even people who have a disease with no cure can rejoice when they see a countryside like the one posted.
I hope this answers this:

Do you find this disease to be proof of god?
You never got around to saying.

Oh...re covid they have been very specific saying there are treatments but no cure.

 

[thomas t]

So invading, taking slaves is allowed if you offer them death or slavery afterward. This makes the Egyptians, Babylonians good guys.

The Israelite army couldn't just let their enemies go after a victory.
The enemies potentially would have attacked them again, I think:
the Israelites had two options, as I see it. Slay them or slave them.
For safety reasons, they didn't have the option of letting them go, I think.

No, this doesn't make the others good guys.

Neither do I because they can't find any evidence.

But I don't rule out miracles just because there is no evidence of them.
IF there is a God.... miracles come with the territory.
Evidence yes or no. This is how I see it.

So the real ones aren't the biblical ones?

These real ones that you've cited may have no connection with the Biblical ones, I suppose.
If you say they do... back it up by evidence, Paul.

The Biblical ones I believe were also real.