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My answer in this thread is my own words and understanding, not from the quran:)

Absolutely, but what I wrote is the perspective from the highest levels of sophistication from the Qur'an and other religions which all agree on the notion that the Ultimate can never be seen with the physical senses. This is important, because one may not be able to make "Religion Pure for Allah Only" and free themselves from "Shirk" and other stuff, and purify their minds and understandings, without understanding this essential nature of Allah and to not have the mind gravitate towards images (as it does for many people, even Atheists often are stuck thinking God refers to some imaginary being that they connect mental images to or structure to). So, this was just an opportunity for me to bring this important feature of Islam and other religions to light here, thanks to your great comment which inspired me to collect and write all that I did!
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Absolutely, but what I wrote is the perspective from the highest levels of sophistication from the Qur'an and other religions which all agree on the notion that the Ultimate can never be seen with the physical senses. This is important, because one may not be able to make "Religion Pure for Allah Only" and free themselves from "Shirk" and other stuff, and purify their minds and understandings, without understanding this essential nature of Allah and to not have the mind gravitate towards images (as it does for many people, even Atheists often are stuck thinking God refers to some imaginary being that they connect mental images to or structure to). So, this was just an opportunity for me to bring this important feature of Islam and other religions to light here, thanks to your great comment which inspired me to collect and write all that I did!
Thank you :) hope i did not sound like a criticism of your post
 
Who knows until it shows itself?
Could you read my post. There isn't anything you will ever be able to see. You need to derive the knowledge of it from non-visual sources or references, like how you might infer the presence of Dark-Matter, Radiation, Thoughts in other people, the things you can't see and will never be able to see because it is not something you can ever see, its not "see-able", and very few things overall are even see-able anyway.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Totes wrong in my opinion. Basic, common theology about the one God is that God is invisible, intangible, unnatural. A theologist would consider a visible God to not be God but a god or a divinity but not 'The' divinity. Be being visible God would no longer be supreme, since it would limit God to something visible.
All that would make every bible a lie.

People throughout history have claimed to see it, communicates with it, and always telling us what it wants.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think the way we have been given to find God is already perfect, it is through the Messengers and all creation.

We can choose to find God, the way God has chosen to be known to us, or choose not to.

Regards Tony
 
Thank you :) hope i did not sound like a criticism of your post

Oh yeah, I wasn't sure if you minded the references I was making, I was trying to show how the most intelligent and sophisticated of all the philosophical religions all agree on there never being a Visible Ultimate, and the Taoists also agree with this. So there is a consensus from basically everyone when they reach the peak of their sophisticated statements, that God is never to be seen, because God is beyond such things, is not made of such things that can be seen (or out of anything), and so can not be seen, and then clarifies for people also that those who claim that this or that idol or image is really God, or that Jesus is really God (and no one else is, or nothing else is), or all these things, are entirely incorrect and false and illogical, so that that God of Truth or Reason is the Unseeable God, the God of Falsehood and Misdirection is Any Seeable Form, which is only ever just information generated by the True God who is forever without form, forever un-encompassed, forever free, forever un-constrained, and will never be what they say or claim which is untrue and misleading and corrupting to their minds and understandings and leads them towards error and darkness. God is Indivisible, Can not be split up because there is nothing that people can divide regarding God, and on every count God can wholly be derived through clear and careful reasoning, but people very often use the word "God" to mean an actual figure (which they may or may not believe) who is literally like a man, and people who think that, we don't know what their future state will be, but its not expected that they have the right understanding at all (and so the Qur'an as well as other books seem to indicate that they are not likely destined for very good outcomes, simply for having such distorted understandings, which may even lead to distorted actions by them as well, which the New Testament book of Romans seems to mention Paul suggesting that their images tend to confuse and mislead them also).

Whoever, in whichever religion, derived and concluded and was guided to the Truth, and did good, is promised and given hope that they will prosper for it and are the specifically blessed by Allah as to receive the Truth regarding him and to be the example in their lives and sometimes among their families and communities which know the truth and state it, and guide people, so that the people have no excuse overall except that they were insisting upon error and insisting upon a God far less in their weak estimation than the True God, because they thought by giving God a form and a body they were giving God something more, when they were in fact limiting God and distorting the truth and misleading people.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I think people rather have faith than see the person who they have faith in in person. Something about having faith and other experiences of love and so forth may be more important than needing to be with the source itself. Which begs the question of there actually being a god because I'm sure people who believe in god would "want" to meet the person they believe in. If they are settled with faith and experiences, then god can't show himself.

It would be based on the believers idea of him rather than him being an actual being appeared as a ghost in a movie. With all the believers I spoke with during my years off and on RF I never got the impression they believed in a real ghost-like being. As for christians meeting jesus' christ, I think that's a bit more realistic to them but still have that faith-literal barrier one needs to cross if one wants to see the source of their experiences. Seeing the source doesn't mean the experiences and feelings go away. Going out of one's comfort zone to know sacredness does not need to be mystical for it to sacred.
This is something I understand.

Rather than risk getting their own little version of their belief shattered they would rather carry on believing rather than know they were wrong.

Imagine all the small cult-like religions having to admit they had it wrong, now imagine Mormons, Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, etc having to admit they were wrong.
 
All that would make every bible a lie.

People throughout history have claimed to see it, communicates with it, and always telling us what it wants.
This is something I understand.

Rather than risk getting their own little version of their belief shattered they would rather carry on believing rather than know they were wrong.

Imagine all the small cult-like religions having to admit they had it wrong, now imagine Mormons, Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, etc having to admit they were wrong.

Just out of curiosity, what would you imagine you would see if this thing were to show itself, and what would you believe, were an image of a thing to be shown to you? Can you describe what would satisfy you?
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Here is a scene from the Qur'an which reveals why Allah can never be seen and is not see-able:
7:143
And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble to dust and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: subhanaka tubtu ilayka, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

subhanaka tubtu ilayka

"You are Void (Subhan)"

Allah is literally Void, Non-Information, Can never ever be seen for real, because Allah is not information, and only information can be seen. There is nothing to see. We see all the evidence of Allah who is controlling everything, but will never ever see anything, and if you do see anything, that is never ever Allah, because Allah is not made of "stuff", is not "stuff", is not information, but is Non-Information, Non-Stuff, is Void, Chaos (meaning Void also).

6:103
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp encompasses all visions. He is beyond our comprehension, but He comprehends all.

So whoever thinks Allah can be seen, or will ever be seen, or is seeing Allah, they are simply wrong, what they are seeing is not Allah and can never be Allah, as there is nothing to see, visual "stuff" is "information" and Allah is not that, is Non-Information, something Other than "stuff", and Stuff/Information is what Allah generates moment to moment, that is Allah's power (which in Sanskrit might be called Maya, the power to generate "illusions" which are information or visuals and experiences or "stuff"), Allah has the intrinsic power to generate "stuff" or "appearances" or "information" but is not "information" and was not generated by anything, was always existing first of all and is the only thing which actually exists, is without dimensions, is without space, is without distances, is without laws, is without constraints, before any images, before any conditions, is unconditioned, is Void, Sunyata, Emptiness, all those famous terms, Ayin, all of them refer to the "Like Nothing" and "Literally Like Nothing" that is Allah's true essential basic form, never to be seen except through "Apparent Action" and all these things manifested.

Allah is compared to "Light", but if you study Light, you realize that Light is itself invisible, you can't actually see light directly ever, it is only ever seen if it is reflects upon a surface or is reflected upon (metaphorically), and so Allah similarly, makes things visible, makes things manifest, reveals things, and becomes apparent, but is essentially invisible, only known through influence and action, can not be seen directly "as is" because Allah is not seeable or made of seeable things or anything really, is Non-Stuff, so not material, but what produces the material after it and within itself which is like this sort of stuff we experience and see and everything else.

No vision can ever encompass or grasp anything of Allah who is Literally Like Nothing, having no appearance or physical dimensions of any sort, no limitations, nothing like that, is Unlike Everything we know and see, is even Unlike Laws which have structure and properties and dimensions and limits.

Allah's Power is also unlike anything else, since Allah alone can produce and generate Information / Experience / "Stuff".

That is the God of the Qur'an (and many other religions) which many people (even those in those religions) can not know, understand, or accept.

Even Musa apparently had the wrong idea until the moment that Allah made this event occur in his experience to give him a better understanding, so that he was made to say "Subhan Are You!" meaning "You Are Void!" You are Like Nothing, but Allah is not "True Nothing" which can not exist, or perform any task, has no power at all, and nothing else would exist if there was ever True Nothing, but Allah is "Like Nothing", except exists, has the power to generate reality or experiences or information instantaneously and effortlessly, and the drive to do so, and furthermore the Choice of what to do and when to do it in every detail, which is the beginning of the Intelligence, so that Allah is the First and truly Only Sentience and Mind (known in Sanskrit as Citta).

Cit (consciousness) - Wikipedia

Satcitananda - Wikipedia

"
Sunya and Sunyatisunya are concepts which appear in some Shaiva texts, such as the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra, which contains several verses mentioning voidness as a feature of ultimate reality - Shiva:

"The Absolute void is Bhairava who is beyond the senses and the mind, beyond all the categories of these instruments. From the point of view of the human mins, He is most void. from the point of view of Reality, He is most full, for He is the source of all manifestation."[130]
"

Śūnyatā - Wikipedia

Ayin and Yesh - Wikipedia

"
David ben Abraham ha-Laban, a 14th-century kabbalist, says:

Nothingness (ayin) is more existent than all the being of the world. But since it is simple, and all simple things are complex compared with its simplicity, it is called ayin.[6]

Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi says:

AYIN means No-Thing. AYIN is beyond Existence, separate from any-thing. AYIN is Absolute Nothing. AYIN is not above or below. Neither is AYIN still or in motion. There is nowhere where AYIN is, for AYIN is not. AYIN is soundless, but neither is it silence. Nor is AYIN a void – and yet out of the zero of AYIN'S no-thingness comes the one of EIN SOF[7]
"
There is no Other God, and anything that people think is "A God" which they can see, or which has some physical qualities, dimensions, limitations, is not the God of which we speak or consider the Ultimate or True Controller and Manifesting Power. That is Only Ever the Imageless Generator of All Images, the Formless Generator of All Forms, etc.
I stopped reading halfway through because for a god who can't be seen, communicated with. The writer knows a lot about it.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
It is no wrong in doubt. Its normal to doubt sometimes.
What i meant to say, one who believe in God will if practicing correctly shred the doubt, its just a part of the practice, in my understanding
Saying that makes the different bibles/prophets more important than the god.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The Qur'an is supposed to be the words spoke to Muhammed, as relayed by Muhammed, not the words of Muhammed by Muhammed. So its supposed to be what was being said to and through Muhammed, which Muhammed then uttered, so when its talking, its talking to him, rather than from him or by him.

Then the Hadiths, which are different books made later on, are supposed to be collections of stories that are told about him, so similar to how people tell stories about Jesus in the Gospels and all that.

The Qur'an is not written in the style of other books because of this unique gimmick of style which "Speaks to Muhammed" throughout and tells him what to say or do.

It is unique, you should give it a read maybe www.islamawakened.com
So god can communicate with people. And does quite a lot of communicating if a whole book was communicated to a person.

Then goes on to talk to other people.
 
I stopped reading halfway through because for a god who can't be seen, communicated with. The writer knows a lot about it.

Yes, I know a lot about it, because not everything can be seen, you can't see the number 1 or the number 2, you can't see these things, they are abstracts, they are understood through reasoning.

God can communicate to people, God communicates through everything. I suggest you start claiming that God is communicating through you and telling you to say that there is No God, and you wouldn't be wrong even, give it a try.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Could you read my post. There isn't anything you will ever be able to see. You need to derive the knowledge of it from non-visual sources or references, like how you might infer the presence of Dark-Matter, Radiation, Thoughts in other people, the things you can't see and will never be able to see because it is not something you can ever see, its not "see-able", and very few things overall are even see-able anyway.
See, hear, whatever if it exists it can communicate. Otherwise we wouldn't have a clue what it was. It would be like describing a Venusian.

A manmade being.
 
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