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SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
With the 1,000s of different versions of religions and the different versions of those religions, an appearance by God is long overdue. There also billions on Earth who would welcome the knowledge of its existence just to confirm which version of its being, religion, messenger, prophets are right.

By not showing itself it only confuses the issue and leaves open the possibility that it's just a manmade creation. No theist really wants that, even if their religion might not be exactly right at least they would know how close they are to the truth.

TLDR; It is impossible to see God, anything that can be seen is Created and not the source. Even in 'heaven' you will not see God. The concept of God (in Monotheism) is antithetical to anything that can be seen, anything with form, image, likeness. As all form, image and likeness is created. Even speech itself is created (as in speech of God is relative to revelation and not to God itself).


In the wise words of Imam Ali (first Imam of Shia Islam, and 4th Sunni Caliph):

"He who assigns to Him (different) conditions does not believe in His Oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality. He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him. Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect (of a cause). He works but not with the help of instruments. He fixes measures but not with the activity of thinking. He is rich but not by acquisition. Times do not keep company with Him, and implements do not help Him. His Being precedes times. His Existence precedes non-existence and His eternity precedes beginning. By His creating the senses it is known that He has no senses. By the contraries in various matters it is known that He has no contrary, and by the similarity between things it is known that there is nothing similar to Him. He has made light the contrary of darkness, brightness that of gloom, dryness that of moisture and heat that of cold.
He produces affection among inimical things. He fuses together diverse things, brings near remote things and separates things which are joined together. He is not confined by limits, nor counted by numbers. Material parts can surround things of their own kind, and organs can point out things similar to themselves. The word "mundhu" (i.e. since) disproves their eternity, the word "qad" (that denotes nearness of time of occurrence), disproves their being from ever and the word "lawla" (if it were not) keep them remote from perfection. Through them the Creator manifests Himself to the intelligence, and through them He is guarded from the sight of the eyes.
Stillness and motion do not occur in Him, and how can that thing occur in Him which He has Himself made to occur, and how can a thing revert to Him which He first created, and how can a thing appear in Him which He first brought to appearance. If it had not been so, His Self would have become subject to diversity, His Being would have become divisible (into parts), and His reality would have been prevented from being deemed Eternal.
If there was a front to Him there would have been a rear also for Him. He would need completing only if shortage befell Him. In that case signs of the created would appear in Him, and He would become a sign (leading to other objects) instead of signs leading to Him. Through the might of His abstention (from affectedness) He is far above being affected by things which affect others.
He is that which does not change or vanish. The process of setting does not behove Him. He has not begotten any one lest He be regarded as having been born. He has not been begotten otherwise He would be contained within limits. He is too High to have sons. He is too purified to contact women. Imagination cannot reach Him so as to assign Him quantity. Understanding cannot think of Him so as to give him shape. Senses do not perceive Him so as to feel Him. Hands cannot touch Him so as to rub against Him. He does not change into any condition. He does not pass from one state to another. Nights and days do not turn Him old. Light and darkness do not alter Him.
He cannot be described through (the possession of) parts, or through limbs and organs, or by a an accidental quality or alteration or portions. It cannot be said that He has a limit or extremity, or end or termination; nor do things control Him so as to raise Him or lower Him, nor does anything carry Him so as to bend Him or keep Him erect. He is not inside things or outside them. He conveys news, but not with the tongue or voice. He listens, but not with the holes of the ears or the organs of hearing. He says, but does not utter words.
He remembers, but does not memorise. He determines, but not by exercising His mind. He loves and approves without any sentimentality (of heart). He hates and feels angry without any painstaking. When He intends to create something He says ‘"..Be" and it is’ (Qur'an 2:117), but not through a voice that strikes (the ears) is that call heard. His speech is an act of His creation. His like never existed before this. If it had been eternal it would have been a second god.
It cannot be said that He came into being after He had not been in existence because in that case the attributes of the created things would be assigned to Him and there would remain no difference between them and Him, and He would have no distinction over them. Thus, the Creator and the created would become equal and the initiator and the initiated would be on the same level. He created (the whole of) creation without any example made by someone else, and He did not secure the assistance of any one out of His creation for creating it.
He created the earth and suspended it without being busy, retained it without support, made it stand without legs, raised it without pillars, protected it against bendings and curvings and defended it against crumbling and splitting (into parts). He fixed mountains on it like stumps, solidified its rocks, caused its streams to flow and opened wide its valleys. Whatever He made did not suffer from any frailty, and whatever He strengthened did not show any weakness.
He manifests Himself over the earth with His authority and greatness. He is aware of its inside through his knowledge and understanding. He has power over every thing in the earth by virtue of His sublimity and dignity. Nothing from the earth that he may ask for defies Him, nor does it oppose Him so as to overpower Him. No swift-footed creature can run away from Him so as to surpass Him. He is not needy towards any possessing person so that he should feed Him. All things bow to Him and are humble before His greatness. They cannot flee away from His authority to someone else in order to escape His benefit or His harm. There is no parallel for Him who may match Him and no one like Him so as to equal Him. He will destroy the earth after its existence, till all that exists on it will become non-existent. But the extinction of the world after its creation is no more marvelous than its first formation and invention. How could it be otherwise? Even if all the animals of the earth, whether birds or beasts, stabled cattle or pasturing ones, of different origins and species, dull people and sagacious men -- all jointly try to create (even) a mosquito they are not able to bring it into being and do not understand what is the way to its creation. Their wits are bewildered and wandering. Their powers fall short and fail, and return dazzled and weary, knowing that they are defeated and admitting their inability to produce it, also realising that they are too weak (even) to destroy it! Surely, after the extinction of the world, Allah the Glorified will remain alone with nothing else beside Him. He will be, after its extinction, as He was before its production: without time or place or moment or period. At this moment, period and time will not exist, and years and hours will disappear. There will be nothing except Allah, the One, the All-powerful. To Him is the return of all matters. Its initial creation was not in its power; and the prevention of its extinction was (also) not in its power. If it had the power to prevent it, it would have existed for ever."


The idea of "God showing itself" is inherently and extremely blasphemous in Islam, that is called Shirk.

As Surah Ikhlas says:

Say, ‘He is God, the One.
God is the All-embracing (which all things ontologically depend upon, the Absolute and eternal)
He neither begat, nor was begotten,
There is Nothing like Him.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
With the 1,000s of different versions of religions and the different versions of those religions, an appearance by God is long overdue. There also billions on Earth who would welcome the knowledge of its existence just to confirm which version of its being, religion, messenger, prophets are right.

By not showing itself it only confuses the issue and leaves open the possibility that it's just a manmade creation. No theist really wants that, even if their religion might not be exactly right at least they would know how close they are to the truth.

I struggle to find anything that isn't an appearance of God (assuming you're referring to the highest principle as "God").
 
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Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Priests have been "showing themselves" to little boys for quite some time now (which is why there are lawsuit ads on TV).

God wants free choice. This means that he wants decisions based on goodness and faith, not on proof.

When President W. Bush was defying God (Revelation in the bible) and attacking Babylon, Iraq, many psychics from around the world were ordered by God to give God's message to the world. Like the typical heavenly message, it was to merely obey what you already know (thou shalt not kill, and Revelation says that if you defy God and attack Iraq, God will make you taste his vengeance (including Revelation 15 (seven plagues...like COVID)).

Yet, God also instructed these psychics to not to tell people that they are messengers from God, because God wants humble messengers (not ones getting credit for speaking to God or carrying out God's orders). So, God's messages fell on deaf ears as W. Bush attacked the wrong enemy, killeld 1,000,000, and made torture camps (like Guantanamo, ships in the Indian Ocean, and in Iraq) to force false confessions to try to justify his phony war.

Souls are supposed to choose goodness (heaven) or choose badness (hell). This means that the bad souls that composed God will be weeded out so God can purify himself.

God can't offer choice if a giant spirit hand descends from heaven and squishes a dam back together. Nor giant fingers that flick bad guys away. When we see God, and all must acknowledge that God is real, there is no choice. At that point the good and bad spirits ascend to heaven, and God is back where he started from, with a lot of bad spirits inside him.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I'll tell you this -- anybody (or any thing/entity/etc.) that wants me to pay attention to it really ought to, at very least, make themself known to me. Otherwise, why on earth would I pay any attention at all?

@Audie may want me to worship her, but if she doesn't engage me and tell me why, I'm afraid I'm going to leave her a bit disappointed.

It is always and option, driven by a person's heart.

Regards Tony
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's presented as the word of god, are you saying it's not?
Now you're playing games. I'm not playing games. You don't appear to have a clue about the Bible, yet you're acting like you're an expert. That's not my fault, and I can't fix that for you. Trying to get me to argue about whether its the word of god is a preacher's game, and I'm not paid to preach.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
With the 1,000s of different versions of religions and the different versions of those religions, an appearance by God is long overdue.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris have for a long time taught and highlighted the appearance of God as an incorporeal point of light.

This correlation of God with light has been referred to in all the Abrahamic religions as well. I have put a thread highlighting this theme.

Interesting correlation between God and light in major world religions...

There also billions on Earth who would welcome the knowledge of its existence just to confirm which version of its being, religion, messenger, prophets are right.

The Brahmakumaris believe in the universality of all religions, and as the creations of the One God. All conflicts in this regard are based on lack of understanding of the bigger picture or context.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Prajapita Brahmakumaris have for a long time taught and highlighted the appearance of God as an incorporeal point of light.

This correlation of God with light has been referred to in all the Abrahamic religions as well. I have put a thread highlighting this theme.

Interesting correlation between God and light in major world religions...



The Brahmakumaris believe in the universality of all religions, and as the creations of the One God. All conflicts in this regard are based on lack of understanding of the bigger picture or context.
All attempts to make a human god are distractions from one G-d, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
You are free to have your understanding @PAUL MARKHAM, even all of us are human beings we see and understand religion/spiritual practices differently.
Some people understand God one way wheras others will understand God differently.

Personally i know my own understanding of God is limited, but i am ok with that. It means there is more to learn, more to get a better grip on.
I dont need to pull other peoples belief down just because they understand life, religion, God, prophets differently from my self.

To me, life is not about telling other people what they should or should not believe to be correct. To me, life is about what I have to do to realize what I, as a person have to do to make life better.

If i can not answer to my own life, how can i say others are wrong to do or believe what they do.

Life is not about me. Life just is.
A personal appearance would clear all that up.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I'll tell you this -- anybody (or any thing/entity/etc.) that wants me to pay attention to it really ought to, at very least, make themself known to me. Otherwise, why on earth would I pay any attention at all?

@Audie may want me to worship her, but if she doesn't engage me and tell me why, I'm afraid I'm going to leave her a bit disappointed.
The problem is the present method is open to multiple abuse by fake messengers. They can't be all right, they can be all wrong.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
A personal appearance would clear all that up.
The question then is, if God show up and told exactly what you would need to do to gain access to heaven, and you would with no struggle do it. What would you have learned about life, spiritual growth, suffering and so on? I believe it would be to learn nothing if we dont do it our self.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
TLDR; It is impossible to see God, anything that can be seen is Created and not the source. Even in 'heaven' you will not see God. The concept of God (in Monotheism) is antithetical to anything that can be seen, anything with form, image, likeness. As all form, image and likeness is created. Even speech itself is created (as in speech of God is relative to revelation and not to God itself).
Then how do all the books it inspires get written?

How do your priests know anything about it?
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
They are all I can ever know about God.

Who am I to say God should do it another way? I am but dust and to dust we all return.

The soul is God's to give, educate and take away.

Regards Tony
Says who?

That's the problem with the present method, we are all left to sort out which god sounds like the one that fits us or doesn't fit us.

Fake gurus make us even more confused.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Now you're playing games. I'm not playing games. You don't appear to have a clue about the Bible, yet you're acting like you're an expert. That's not my fault, and I can't fix that for you. Trying to get me to argue about whether its the word of god is a preacher's game, and I'm not paid to preach.
You didn't answer y question and my fundamental point. How can all the bibles be created by a god who can't show itself?
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
With the 1,000s of different versions of religions and the different versions of those religions, an appearance by God is long overdue. There also billions on Earth who would welcome the knowledge of its existence just to confirm which version of its being, religion, messenger, prophets are right.

By not showing itself it only confuses the issue and leaves open the possibility that it's just a manmade creation. No theist really wants that, even if their religion might not be exactly right at least they would know how close they are to the truth.


Dear PAUL MARKHAM

Perhaps God “shows” Itself to someone in the way that particular someone is most likely to comprehend?

Perhaps it is with God as it is with Divine insights. Such are not given in language, yet one will understand them in a/the language that one speaks (Not only that: Divine insights are given within the context that makes sense to its “receiver” - not always even a religious one, at that).

Humbly
Hermit
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You didn't answer y question and my fundamental point. How can all the bibles be created by a god who can't show itself?
You're furthering the misunderstanding that you seemingly want to combat, and a God who is miraculous enough can create bibles without showing themselves. Even so bibles don't present themselves as created by God, so its irrelevant and reinforces a popular myth. The bibles are plainly libraries which rewrite more ancient material to make counterpoints. They don't anywhere claim "This library is actually a book handed down from God to humans." That is, it is obvious enough that this isn't what is claimed that it can be pressed as a point.

I also already said "Its not a textbook, and its not intended to deceive you into believing its a textbook." You then insisted it was presented as the word of God and further implied it was intended to be thought that way. Its not presented that way by itself any more than a check can endorse itself or set its own amount. There is no basis for presenting it as anything more than inspired. Returning to the OP:
With the 1,000s of different versions of religions and the different versions of those religions, an appearance by God is long overdue. There also billions on Earth who would welcome the knowledge of its existence just to confirm which version of its being, religion, messenger, prophets are right.

By not showing itself it only confuses the issue and leaves open the possibility that it's just a manmade creation. No theist really wants that, even if their religion might not be exactly right at least they would know how close they are to the truth.
I maintain that basic, common theology about the one God is that God is invisible, intangible, unnatural. Therefore a theologian should consider a visible God to not be God but a god or a divinity but not 'The' divinity. Be being visible God would no longer be supreme, since it would limit God to something visible. So no, theologians should not wish for God to confirm which version was right. Instead they should hope that people realize that God doesn't owe us any explanation.
 
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