Should incest be banned?

[Skwim]

but laws are passed by judges and panels that are influenced by public opinion and consensus.

And what do you think our legislatures are for?

 

[Tiberius]

Tiberius - no, I am talking about subliminal psychological coercion / manipulation.

Like , please sleep with Uncle bob to keep the family happy.

that kind of thing - the manipulation could be an undercurrent within the family that would be very hard to detect by an outsider.

I don't care.

If someone asks Sally to have sex with uncle Bob to keep the family happy, and Sally does it in order to keep the family happy but she doesn't want to do it, then it is rape.

The fact that she was not held down while it happened is irrelevant. The fact remains that Sally did not want to do it. She had sex with someone that she did not want to have sex with. it is rape. It doesn't matter if she was held down, had a gun put against her head, or had someone pressuring her into doing it. The instant Sally wants to be somewhere else instead of having sex, then it is rape. She is involved and she does not want to be involved.

That is the only issue that is relevant. Unless Sally wants to do it, it is rape.

also subjective reasoning by the lawmakers will inevitably play some part.
Morality is subjective after all - impossible to avoid and no reason why it should be either.

If you admit that it is subjective, then how can you claim that it should be banned?

 

[godlikemadman]

Oh, alright, just because I like jerking your chain...



Do you even know what a logical fallacy is? Here you seem to be using it as a synonym for "argument", but it doesn't actually work like that.



Prove it.



Only after several generations, so I've heard. If you want I'll try to find a source, but if a brother and sister have a child together, that child won't have three arms or have mental problems or anything. It takes several generations for that.



What about atheists?

And where did Cain and Abel's wives come from? Or did they do it with Eve? And what about Noah's family? There weren't enough people on the ark to avoid having sex with close family members.



If I can find an instance of incest in the animal kingdom, will you drop that argument?



So is climbing into a metal tube and flying through the sky at the speed of sound, yet people do that. And I assume you don't have a problem with it.



Many more? Then I assume you won't have a problem naming ten more issues about the harm/disadvantages of incest that you haven't already mentioned.



lol, only you could acknowledge something as your own subjective opinion and then turn around and present it as objective fact in the same sentence. It's not something to be proud of.



So like brothers and sisters, not cousins?



I'll believe it when I see it...

My friend...

You've just been owned.

 

[nnmartin]

If someone asks Sally to have sex with uncle Bob to keep the family happy, and Sally does it in order to keep the family happy but she doesn't want to do it, then it is rape.

The fact that she was not held down while it happened is irrelevant. The fact remains that Sally did not want to do it. She had sex with someone that she did not want to have sex with. it is rape.
That is the only issue that is relevant. Unless Sally wants to do it, it is rape.
?

- how did you come to this conclusion?

this is like saying if you agree to have sex with someone to keep them happy but don't really want it then it is rape - that's nonsense.

If I keep my girlfriend happy when I'm not in the mood is is she raping me?

Explain

 

[Shadow Wolf]

this is like saying if you agree to have sex with someone to keep them happy but don't really want it then it is rape - that's nonsense.

If you don't want it, you don't want it. Being pressured to do something you don't want to is considered coercion, which means it's not consensual, which means could be considered rape.

 

[nnmartin]

we are talking about subliminal psychological pressure here of the most indirect kind.

Almost unnoticeable yet it is there.

This is not rape.

 

[Tiberius]

- how did you come to this conclusion?

this is like saying if you agree to have sex with someone to keep them happy but don't really want it then it is rape - that's nonsense.

If I keep my girlfriend happy when I'm not in the mood is is she raping me?

Explain

Are you being pressured into having sex when you don't want to?

If you can't tell if that's rape or not, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Tiberius]

we are talking about subliminal psychological pressure here of the most indirect kind.

Almost unnoticeable yet it is there.

This is not rape.

It doesn't matter. If it is there, then it is rape.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

we are talking about subliminal psychological pressure here of the most indirect kind.

The effects of subliminal messaging seem to be very weak at best. A few studies show it has an effect, but most of them show that it has very little effect overall.
And coercion and subliminal messaging are two totally different things. Coercion is pressuring someone to do something, peer pressure is a very good example; subliminal messaging is an attempt to work a hidden message into something that is not detected consciously but subconsciously, and most studies indicate direct messaging has a more powerful influence that subliminal messaging.
If you are coerced, you do not consent. I certainly do not demand that my girlfriend have sex with me when I want it and she doesn't. Actually not too long ago, before the days of domestic violence and rape, a husband could legally force his wife to have sex with him. Today we do legally define that as rape, as it should be since the one party is not willing or consenting.

 

[nnmartin]

It doesn't matter. If it is there, then it is rape.

That really is quite an absurd allegation.

Let's say my girlfriend says to me 'Martin , I feel horny tonight and I want you to satisfy me otherwise I will go to the local bar and find a willing partner'

Now if I am really not in the mood it is quite likely that I may abide by her wishes anyway to avoid the other scenario.

That is not rape because I could just as easily say no.

What do you say?

I take it you are not talking about 'legal' rape either?

 

[nnmartin]

The effects of subliminal messaging seem to be very weak at best. A few studies show it has an effect, but most of them show that it has very little effect overall.

very hard to prove and I disagree as well.

There have been plenty of times in the past when I have done things for the family due to this kind of subliminal pressure. I am sure most people have.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If you are trying to give a comparison nnmartin, please give an apt one... such as:

A father tells his dependent daughter that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the house with no way to support herself.
Vs
A father tells his self-reliant daughter that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the house.
Vs
A husband tells his dependent wife that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the house with no way to support herself.
Vs
A husband tells his self-reliant wife that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the house
Vs
A man tells his dependant girlfriend that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the house with no way to support herself.
Vs
A man tells his self-reliant girlfriend that she has to service his needs or he will kick her out of the relationship.​

Notice the distinctions? They are important - you are attempting to make a comparison between situations with almost no relation, it hampers your case. Which of the women are more likely to feel pressure to do as she is told? It has nothing to do with family / legal relationship but rather dependence.

 

[nnmartin]

yes, but none of those situations are rape though if the woman agreed to have sex.

this is what I was getting at.

if there is a choice then it is not rape (although this is leading off topic)

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If there is undue influence, then it is covered by law.

 

[nnmartin]

ok, well what counts as undue influence then?

 

[Drolefille]

yes, but none of those situations are rape though if the woman agreed to have sex.

this is what I was getting at.

if there is a choice then it is not rape (although this is leading off topic)

No, coercion is not freely given consent and it is rape.

It's really relevant to the topic as this, accurate, definition of rape means that your argument about banning incest due to non-consent is invalid.

 

[nnmartin]

ok, how about giving an example of indirect coercion , manipulation etc. that would be considered rape.

I can hardly see the examples that I gave as being this.

 

[Tiberius]

Martin, why do you not understand this?

If a person has sex with someone and they do not want to be having sex with that person, then it is rape.

Doesn't matter if they are kicking and screaming and trying to get away, or doing it so their loved ones aren't killed, or doing it because the boss says they won't get that promotion if they don't.

It's all rape.

 

[nnmartin]

not legal rape though surely.

I mean how about if you sleep with a prostitute who only does it for the money - surely that is not rape.

If you are talking about a kind of moral rape then please say so and we can discuss that

 

[Drolefille]

not legal rape though surely.

I mean how about if you sleep with a prostitute who only does it for the money - surely that is not rape.

If you are talking about a kind of moral rape then please say so and we can discuss that

No, actually the laws would cover it, they're just rarely used to because it's difficult to prove and testifying tends to be incredibly traumatic to the victim. Primarily due to the blame that people place on the victim, but also for reliving a traumatic experience. This is something that doesn't change in incest cases.

A prostitute who is doing it of her own free will for the money is consenting, a trafficked woman or child is not consenting as they are typically deliberately hooked on drugs and threatened with harm.

It's really not hard, any lack of true consent = rape.