Should Sharia Law be forbidden in Non-Muslim (Western) countries?

[Notanumber]

Some examples

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/61...Steve-Gillian-Jizya-Tax-ISIS-Belmarsh-Inmates

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...im-community-rise-of-the-burka-Koran-religion

 

[icehorse]

Besides I can show u that Islam has a good system of law for society including women and in all probability u have never heard of about its reasons

As a non-Muslim who has studied Islam a fair bit, I have found very little real-world evidence to support your claim that Sharia is a "good system of law". Can you give an example or two of modern, successful societies that use Sharia to any substantial degree?

 

[LuisDantas]

The most important question that everybody should answer is that
Should we obey God or God should obey us?

To the extent that this question should be answered in that form at all, the answer is obvious:

God should obey us. For the very simple reason that "obeying God" will vary in meaning from one person to the next.

Attempting to make a law out of "God's Will" ends up being an unjustifiable, undefensible invasion of personal space, destructive both from a religious and from an un-religious perspective.

We think the creator is the only person that should be obeyed and if we are supposed to do whatever we want there wasn't any need to religion and its practice

I can only say that such an understanding of religion is itself misguided and destructive and, ultimately, must be challenged to extinction.

Honestly I didn't get

Another way of putting it is that freedom of religion does not entitle Muslims (or anyone else) to pursue theocracy, because it intrudes on that very same freedom of religion.

Do u think u have a great culture?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is not the point. The point is instead that theocracy must be repealled.

Mediocre, great or even tragic, any culture deserves better than theocracy.

Racism and Homosexuality and making a dog as a family member and evaluating women as sexual merchandise and marrying animals instead of human is really a culture?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is obvious from this comment that you would not know what values a culture would need. By extension, the Qur'an and the Muslims that you know failed to teach you those as well.

We don't try to undermine your transcendent culture!

Then you will agree with us in that Sharia, being theocratic in nature, is no good for anyone - Muslims or otherwise.

U say freedom and act against it
We don't say freedom and act according to it

Freedom to pursue repressive laws is no freedom at all.

Besides I can show u that Islam has a good system of law for society including women and in all probability u have never heard of about its reasons

I doubt it, but feel free to attempt to convince us otherwise.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The most important question that everybody should answer is that
Should we obey God or God should obey us?

How do you expect polytheists like myself to answer this? How do you expect atheists to answer this question? How do you expect Jews, Christians & Zoroastrians who are monotheists, but don't accept your religion's claims, to answer this question?

We think the creator is the only person that should be obeyed and if we are supposed to do whatever we want there wasn't any need to religion and its practice

Good for you. You don't have the right nor the moral authority to force anyone else to be subject to laws informed by such beliefs though.

Honestly I didn't get

What didn't you get? Please be more specific and I will attempt to explain in clearer terms.

Do u think u have a great culture?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. It's far from perfect but it's better than some of the alternatives out there. Western culture has given us logic, reason, scientific advancements, free-thinking, religious freedom & a greater understanding of ourselves, the planet we live on and the wider Universe.

Racism

Muslim racism #1, Muslim racism #2, Muslim racism #3

Must be great from inside that glass house of yours.

and Homosexuality

Islamic logic: Consensual relationships between adults expressing mutual love is haram, evil, unclean etc marrying your 7 year old off to a 50 year old - to seal a business deal - who will rape her until she develops potentially life-threatening health problems as a result is fine.

and making a dog as a family member

You grow up with a creature that grows with you, can show emotion, demonstrate loyalty to a degree most people wouldn't consider and can be as good as any person (sometimes better) at reading your emotional state, and we're broken for reciprocating while your culture is better because you kill such animals out of hand because they're 'unclean'.

Thanks for demonstrating my point.

and evaluating women as sexual merchandise

You do know there are plenty of Muslim countries where prostitution abounds, right?

and marrying animals instead of human is really a culture?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to call bull**** on this.

We don't try to undermine your transcendent culture!

1. Establishing parallel legal systems because Muslims don't want to be subject to kuffar laws;
2. Starting petitions to ban Oktoberfest because it offends Muslims
3. Muslim patrols enforcing Sharia law on non-Muslims in London
4. Muslim nations establishing the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights because the UNDHR permits people to change religion and gives too many rights to women & non-Muslims.

U say freedom and act against it

Here we go... this strawman argument from Muslims has been done to death. We understand freedom very differently. Muslims look at how we say 'freedom' and think we mean 'anarchy'; to have the licence to do as we please and be damned to our fellows. No. This is not what we mean. We do not believe in absolute freedom or freedom without consequence. We believe in freedom within reasonable limits. An example is freedom of speech not applying to yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie theatre because doing so could lead to people being injured or killed. Another example is freedom of religion not extending to being allowed to put ex-Muslims to death because you're infringing their right to change their religion as well as their right to life.

We don't say freedom and act according to it

Yes, I'm well aware of that. It's one of the reasons I believe Islam is incompatible with civilised societies.

Besides I can show u that Islam has a good system of law for society including women and in all probability u have never heard of about its reasons

Oh please, do go on. Tell us about these amazing reasons for Islamic law that we've never heard before...

 

[Sakeenah]

I voted No
Just wasted 9 minutes of my life..this video is a perfect example of fear mongering.

Most people who speak passionately against shariah do not understand it and often reduce it to a penal code.

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...gal-rulings/52-understanding-islamic-law.html

And in regards to the "every muslim lies to non muslims" part he didn't quote one verse eventhough he claimed it's clearly mentioned in the Quran.

 

[interminable]

As a non-Muslim who has studied Islam a fair bit, I have found very little real-world evidence to support your claim that Sharia is a "good system of law". Can you give an example or two of modern, successful societies that use Sharia to any substantial degree?

My country is the best example
And most of the problems and difficulties that we face in islamic states is because of interference of western countries
If u weren't we were the most successful societies
Who created isis???? US
Who created and supported alkaida? US
Who used atomic bomb? US

Developed countries don't want others to be developed they want to keep them poor and challenged
Otherwise many Muslim societies weren't like this

 

[interminable]

To the extent that this question should be answered in that form at all, the answer is obvious:

God should obey us. For the very simple reason that "obeying God" will vary in meaning from one person to the next.

Attempting to make a law out of "God's Will" ends up being an unjustifiable, undefensible invasion of personal space, destructive both from a religious and from an un-religious perspective.

The person that created us knows better that what is good and what is bad for our souls
The person that his ultimate perspective and his horizon of thought doesn't allow him to think more than his abdomen and his sexual organs will never understand that we have another goal in this life and according to that must base our actions and laws
We have no any right to make rules if God did that before although we don't understand its reasons and that's simply faith is supposed to be

I can only say that such an understanding of religion is itself misguided and destructive and, ultimately, must be challenged to extinction.

Unfortunately some people think god just created world and he has nothing to do with us anymore but this is the beginning of mistake
Religion came to grow up human to become better than the angels and see the greatness of god any our hearts

Another way of putting it is that freedom of religion does not entitle Muslims (or anyone else) to pursue theocracy, because it intrudes on that very same freedom of religion.

If pop were the president I'm sure he would never allow himself to wage war against Muslims in western Asia
Because he has a fear of god at least that none clerics don't have

Just god knows how many people were killed by Us in Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and Libya and............
This is because theocracy prevents such things
Did we attack our neighbors???
Do we have nuclear bomb?????

But u have

That is not the point. The point is instead that theocracy must be repealled.

Mediocre, great or even tragic, any culture deserves better than theocracy.

The person that leads a society should be pious otherwise corruption will be inevitable
Recently Debate of your candidates can tell us about your status and moral things in society

It is obvious from this comment that you would not know what values a culture would need. By extension, the Qur'an and the Muslims that you know failed to teach you those as well.

Yes
We try our best to be human not to be closer to animals

Pursuing passions will not make someone a human instead corruption will be it's result
.

Freedom to pursue repressive laws is no freedom at all.

Repressive?????

I doubt it, but feel free to attempt to convince us otherwise.

It takes time but I will try god willing
[/quote][/quote]

 

[Notanumber]

I voted No
Just wasted 9 minutes of my life..this video is a perfect example of fear mongering.

Most people who speak passionately against shariah do not understand it and often reduce it to a penal code.

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...gal-rulings/52-understanding-islamic-law.html

And in regards to the "every muslim lies to non muslims" part he didn't quote one verse eventhough he claimed it's clearly mentioned in the Quran.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014...-disbelieve-therefore-strike-off-their-heads/

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo,

I'm not trying to pry into your personal info, no worries!

Please notice that I'm not denying the problems of the West. My experience debating Muslims over the last several years is that they typically deny that Islam or Islamic history has any problems.

So the summary message we hear over and over again from Muslims is: "The West has a lot of problems, but Islam is perfect". I hope you can see how non-Muslims cannot take that message seriously?

When it comes to debate, I fully understand that it doesn't end up with agreement at the end of the day.
This kind of debate we're doing is for demonstrating others perspective, to hear another voice, increases personal knowledge.
One can go later and rethink, reread, reassess,,,,
No expectation for agreement

 

[LuisDantas]

This is certainly a difficult dialogue...

The person that created us knows better that what is good and what is bad for our souls

If there is such a person, he obviously chose not to make himself manifest, and therefore there is no practical significance to your claim even if it were true (which is doubtful at best in the first place).

The person that his ultimate perspective and his horizon of thought doesn't allow him to think more than his abdomen and his sexual organs will never understand that we have another goal in this life and according to that must base our actions and laws
We have no any right to make rules if God did that before although we don't understand its reasons and that's simply faith is supposed to be

You seem to believe that belief in God somehow makes people better.

That is simply not the case and has little to no chance of sustaining a conversation or mutual understanding.

Unfortunately some people think god just created world and he has nothing to do with us anymore but this is the beginning of mistake
Religion came to grow up human to become better than the angels and see the greatness of god any our hearts

Where does Islam fit in there? Is Islam even a religion at all?

If pop were the president I'm sure he would never allow himself to wage war against Muslims in western Asia
Because he has a fear of god at least that none clerics don't have

I honestly don't know who this "pop" you talk about is, but I can assure you that "fear of god" is neither a good thing nor any assurance of lack of desire to wage war.

Just god knows how many people were killed by Us in Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and Libya and............
This is because theocracy prevents such things

Not at all. It actually causes them.

Did we attack our neighbors???

Muslim regimes? I think history answers this question quite decisively.

Do we have nuclear bomb?????

Fortunately not. Hopefully never.

But u have

I never supported the existence of atomic weapons. Not once.

The person that leads a society should be pious otherwise corruption will be inevitable

If "pious" means "believer in God", then I have a huge issue with that claim. It is almost the exact opposite of truth.

Recently Debate of your candidates can tell us about your status and moral things in society

As a rule of thumb, the most they talk about God the most corrupt they are.

I suspect you are talking about the American candidates for President, but the same rule applies here in Brazil anyway.

Yes
We try our best to be human not to be closer to animals

I am trying not to be rude... but really, pretty much everyone else has been more succesful at that goal.

Islam is hardly in any position to claim superiority - or even competence - at attaining moral health.

Pursuing passions will not make someone a human instead corruption will be it's result

Indeed.
.

Repressive?????

Sure. Repression is what a theocracy causes. And the results are not even very defensable in any case.

It takes time but I will try god willing

If there is a God, hopefully he will will better than that.

It is essentially impossible to make a believer out of me. And we all are better off for that, trust me.

 

[interminable]

How do you expect polytheists like myself to answer this? How do you expect atheists to answer this question? How do you expect Jews, Christians & Zoroastrians who are monotheists, but don't accept your religion's claims, to answer this question?

Even polytheists and atheists can answer this simple question
Look
When we talk about god it means the person that created world and everything which means he's omniscient and omnipotent and....
Should he obey us with our little mind and reason????
Of course everybody that has a good thought will answer we should obey him

Answering to this question doesn't need to believe in any god

Good for you. You don't have the right nor the moral authority to force anyone else to be subject to laws informed by such beliefs though.

Look
In Islam other divine religions are respected to some extent
For example if a jew kills another jew we entrust this issue to themselves in Iran likewise Christianity and zoroastrianism
Until it relates to Muslims or society

Besides I told u we don't believe freedom at all
Freedom is illusion and even in some western countries u are not allowed to talk about intelligent design or holocaust
So where is freedom??

What didn't you get? Please be more specific and I will attempt to explain in clearer terms.

Because my English isn't good enough
Sorry

Yes. It's far from perfect but it's better than some of the alternatives out there. Western culture has given us logic, reason, scientific advancements, free-thinking, religious freedom & a greater understanding of ourselves, the planet we live on and the wider Universe.

all the progress u have is indebted to the past and crusade

Our philosophy is an ocean so comparing to yours u have nothing to say in this aspect

Do u know one day Arabic was a language of science?
I don't deny these efforts I like some of them but it's not because u don't believe in God or your society isn't led by clerics

Muslim racism #1, Muslim racism #2, Muslim racism #3

Must be great from inside that glass house of yours.

Don't judge Islam by Muslims and their actions
Islam came to remove racism
Black of white are equal in Islam and
Arab and kord and Persia and .... Have their own sense of nationality so
These acts shouldn't be regarded as Islam teaching

Islamic logic: Consensual relationships between adults expressing mutual love is haram, evil, unclean etc marrying your 7 year old off to a 50 year old - to seal a business deal - who will rape her until she develops potentially life-threatening health problems as a result is fine.

Please use simple words to make me understand sorry about that

You grow up with a creature that grows with you, can show emotion, demonstrate loyalty to a degree most people wouldn't consider and can be as good as any person (sometimes better) at reading your emotional state, and we're broken for reciprocating while your culture is better because you kill such animals out of hand because they're 'unclean'.

We are not allowed to kill animals until they bother us so why do u say such things??

The point is there are lots of orphans around u
They don't deserve to be a friend??
They don't need care and emotion

If u put all your money and time for them instead of dogs isn't better for your society

I wanna say animals are animals so care about them to this extent not more

God knows how much money u and your society are spending for dogs while orphans....

You do know there are plenty of Muslim countries where prostitution abounds, right?

They aren't led by clergyman look at Iran we don't have such things

They are kings and aren't reall Islam estate although half a loaf of bread is better than nothing

I'm going to call bull**** on this.

Good

1. Establishing parallel legal systems because Muslims don't want to be subject to kuffar laws;
2. Starting petitions to ban Oktoberfest because it offends Muslims
3. Muslim patrols enforcing Sharia law on non-Muslims in London
4. Muslim nations establishing the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights because the UNDHR permits people to change religion and gives too many rights to women & non-Muslims.

We fear of god so in every situation we should consider his satisfaction not human consent

Here we go... this strawman argument from Muslims has been done to death. We understand freedom very differently. Muslims look at how we say 'freedom' and think we mean 'anarchy'; to have the licence to do as we please and be damned to our fellows. No. This is not what we mean. We do not believe in absolute freedom or freedom without consequence. We believe in freedom within reasonable limits. An example is freedom of speech not applying to yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie theatre because doing so could lead to people being injured or killed. Another example is freedom of religion not extending to being allowed to put ex-Muslims to death because you're infringing their right to change their religion as well as their right to life.

U say that but your media and politicians don't

Oh please, do go on. Tell us about these amazing reasons for Islamic law that we've never heard before...

I will god willing[/quote][/quote]

 

[icehorse]

My country is the best example
And most of the problems and difficulties that we face in islamic states is because of interference of western countries
If u weren't we were the most successful societies
Who created isis???? US
Who created and supported alkaida? US
Who used atomic bomb? US

Developed countries don't want others to be developed they want to keep them poor and challenged
Otherwise many Muslim societies weren't like this

Hi,

We don't know where you live, so that's a problem. As for your other arguments, I can only guess that you're equating Islam with the ME. I'm not. There are dozens of Muslim majority countries outside of the ME.

 

[icehorse]

When it comes to debate, I fully understand that it doesn't end up with agreement at the end of the day.
This kind of debate we're doing is for demonstrating others perspective, to hear another voice, increases personal knowledge.
One can go later and rethink, reread, reassess,,,,
No expectation for agreement

I would guess that on this board, as soon as you claim that "Islam is perfect", the only people who will give you any serious consideration will be Muslims. It's clear to every non-Muslim who has studied Islam, that it is as flawed as Christianity, and probably more flawed.

 

[interminable]

This is certainly a difficult dialogue...

Yeah consider my English too

If there is such a person, he obviously chose not to make himself manifest, and therefore there is no practical significance to your claim even if it were true (which is doubtful at best in the first place).

He didn't choose it's impossible to see god by these eyes

You seem to believe that belief in God somehow makes people better.

U wanna say atheists are upholding to ethics more than belivers
Common on!

That is simply not the case and has little to no chance of sustaining a conversation or mutual understanding.

Unfortunately religion discussion and theology are like a chain
I have a worldview so I put all of my arguments on that and u too

Where does Islam fit in there? Is Islam even a religion at all?

You're kidding!
Maybe your definition of religion has been changed

I honestly don't know who this "pop" you talk about is, but I can assure you that "fear of god" is neither a good thing nor any assurance of lack of desire to wage war.

sorry my bad
Pope I meant
When we say fear of god it means fear of our actions and our responsibilities in the hereafter

Not at all. It actually causes them.

nope if u take a look at US history u will find that what none clerics did and how many were killed by their pretexts

Muslim regimes? I think history answers this question quite decisively.

I mean theocratic nations that now is just Iran
And history recorded kings and politicians did that not clerics

I never supported the existence of atomic weapons. Not once.

What about chemical one that Iraq used against Iran 30 years ago and killed lots of civilians and all of them were made and developed and experimented on Iranian captives by European countries which claim human rights every day and night ???????
?????
????
?????
?????????

If "pious" means "believer in God", then I have a huge issue with that claim. It is almost the exact opposite of truth.

Have u ever met a pious atheist?

As a rule of thumb, the most they talk about God the most corrupt they are.

Yeah
Because they use word god to earn more vote

I suspect you are talking about the American candidates for President, but the same rule applies here in Brazil anyway.

Unfortunately

Islam is hardly in any position to claim superiority - or even competence - at attaining moral health.

I'm sure your knowledge about Islam isn't much and maybe u earned that by media

Sure. Repression is what a theocracy causes. And the results are not even very defensable in any case

U aren't in my country otherwise u didn't say that

If there is a God, hopefully he will will better than that.

It is essentially impossible to make a believer out of me. And we all are better off for that, trust me.

Here my English didn't help me to understand your statement
Sorry
I wish I could understand English completely

 

[interminable]

It's interesting to know that in some islamic and African countries that don't have enough food to eat terrorists have weapons that are made by US in 2016!!!!!

Even Saudi Arabia kills civilians in Yemen but where is human rights????
Where is Europe???
Don't they sell their weapons to Saudi Arabia????
Where is humanity???

Just pious people are deserved to lead societies not corrupted politicians

 

[interminable]

Hi,

We don't know where you live, so that's a problem. As for your other arguments, I can only guess that you're equating Islam with the ME. I'm not. There are dozens of Muslim majority countries outside of the ME.

Hi
Iran

 

[LuisDantas]

U wanna say atheists are upholding to ethics more than belivers
Common on!

Yes, atheism does help somewhat in attaining ethical integrity. Belief in a Creator God is something of a fertile ground for moral corruption.

As one would expect.

Of course, we should avoid generalizing and consider the merits of people as they actually are on an individual basis.

[quoite]You're kidding!
Maybe your definition of religion has been changed[/quote]

No, I am dead serious. I no longer consider Islam a religion at all. Not since I learned how little it teaches beyond devotion to God.

Religion is something else entirely.

sorry my bad
Pope I meant
When we say fear of god it means fear of our actions and our responsibilities in the hereafter
nope if u take a look at US history u will find that what none clerics did and how many were killed by their pretexts

I am sorry, but I can only say that you are not very much in harmony with the actual facts.

What about chemical one that Iraq used against Iran 30 years ago and killed lots of civilians and all of them were made and developed and experimented on Iranian captives by European countries which claim human rights every day and night ???????

What about them? Do you think I approve of them somehow? I do not.

Have u ever met a pious atheist?

Most atheists are pious in the senses that matter - the moral, societal and ethical ones.

You will find whole countries composed largely of them in the Scandinavian lands, in Japan, in Germany.

Yeah
Because they use word god to earn more vote

And because belief in God is not conductive to moral virtue. Certainly not when compared to disbelief.

I'm sure your knowledge about Islam isn't much and maybe u earned that by media

Actually, most of my rather sharp dive into decisive disapproval of Islam came from interacting with Muslims here in these forums in recent years.

Seek around my posts from a few years ago and you will see that I used to hold a far less passionate stance. Then I learned better. I used to presume a lot more merit and less flaws in Islam than it actually has to show.

U aren't in my country otherwise u didn't say that

I don't doubt you are right. I am very grateful for that.

 

[icehorse]

Just pious people are deserved to lead societies not corrupted politicians

I would agree that there is corruption everywhere, in the West, in the Islamic world, in the east.

I disagree that piousness ought to be any sort of criteria for leadership. Sorry to say, I equate pious with gullible. How about if we all worked to make our leaders moral and ethical?

 

[Akivah]

My country is the best example

What country is that?

And most of the problems and difficulties that we face in islamic states is because of interference of western countries

Typical Muslim response. Blame everyone but yourselves for your own problems.

 

[interminable]

What country is that?

Iran

Typical Muslim response. Blame everyone but yourselves for your own problems.

maybe u aren't in middle east but I'm

Who attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and Syria and Libya and who is the supporter of these wars?????

Who created isis that has 2016 US weapons???
Look
The only country that tries its best to show that u can reach the highest level of progress in every aspect of life and faith and religion aren't obstacles for that is mine and we were pretty successful
Theocracy is the only way we can reach a sustainable peace
And
In reciprocation western countries namely Us try to stop us

Before the evolution in Iran America gave our king 60 F-14 and built our nuclear power plant!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But after evolution they say we are after atomic bomb and we should be sanctioned even for medicines for patients
How cruel they are!!!!!!

So why did they build that in Iran???

It's clear that they are against Islam and development of it
Islam is against arrogant countries