Should Sharia Law be forbidden in Non-Muslim (Western) countries?

[LuisDantas]

The person that doesn't know about the creator and his purpose of creation can say that

Everyone should say that.

Anyone with some intention of being moral, at least.

But a gnostic sees that every existence is powered by God and every beauty that he sees is originated from him So why should he be slave of such existence

Yeah it's true that u aren't familiar with sublime words of prophet otherwise didn't say that

Do you realize how that sounds? Both arrogant and hopelessly naive at the same time.

 

[interminable]

Your English is far better than my Farsi, but even saying that I highly doubt you appreciate the nuanced meaning in my statement you have quoted.

Why?
If I didn't understand something I either won't answer or at least say I didn't understand

And something because of laziness I use short answer

 

[interminable]

That's easy: Surah 109:1-6.

Have u ever read about the interpretation of this surah and traditions that are quoted!

Some infidels came to prophet and told them let's compromise
One year u worship our gods and one year we worship yours

And God sent this surah to say I will never do that

This surah has nothing to do with your claim

You didn't. You told me that your way is the best way and that you don't treat women with respect unless they conform to your absurd standards of decency. That shows is why your way is not the best.

I didn't say such thing
Did I tell that women that don't wear hijab aren't deserved to be respected??

Thank goodness I'm here and u say such thing

I myself respect every women even those who are infidels but in a society everybody should respect laws

That's not the case. People can accept both of these things and still think the Quran is mince. I personally don't but you'll find people of faiths and none who feel this way.

Mince???!!!!!!
Meat??!?!?

And other people are not convinced. What's your point?

No when they see these verses they can't say that it's not God's words or law
Although being convinced is something personal

 

[interminable]

And Muslims have been interfering in one another's affairs and engaging in sectarian strife far longer than the West has been involved in the Middle East. You want to blame us for Muslims being at each other's throats but history shows that Muslims need no encouragement from the infidel whatsoever to do so.

Repeating the claim

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Don't reject something that u have no knowledge about that

Oh, you think I'm making this up? Try looking at this link then. I'd offer you an Al Jazeera link but they don't seem to have covered the story in question.

Seems in every country for driver there are some rules and governments teach them to drive carefully and....

Do they all driver observe rules and laws???

Terrible analogy; you can choose to drive a vehicle you can't choose to be born a woman in a Muslim country.

Besides who told that men aren't responsible for their actions

You did when you said women must cover themselves to protect against men's lecherous advances. What about teaching men to exercise self-restraint?

If a rape proves man will be killed

Which only addresses the symptoms of patriarchy and male rejection.

It's not true

It is. Why do you think men retaliate violently when women reject their advances? Why do you think women get acid thrown in their faces for rejecting offers of marriage? Male pride. And after all, why should men take responsibility for such feelings? It was the woman who caused him to feel hurt when she rejected him. She brought the attack upon herself.

It's a name of a government
Safavi

Thank you. Just doing a bit of reading up on this dynasty. Very interesting.

Our leader is pious and everybody in my country knows that

Maybe he is, maybe he is not. Since I can't see into the Ayatollah's mind, I can't say one way or the other.

If he weren't pious he would be removed by an expert assembly

This is simply untrue. While the Assembly of Experts appoints the Supreme Leader of Iran, the Guardian Council - which appoints the Assembly of Experts - is appointed by the Supreme Leader. Er go the Ayatollah cannot be removed from office except by force and such an action could immediately be declared treason.

You're not true
Iraq is my neighbor so our army is present there and knows better

And does the Iranian Army keep you personally apprised of the situation in Iraq?

America pulled most of its soldiers but not all of them and sometimes sent some groups of them to Iraq

Can you contact your country's generals and ask them where exactly the American forces in Iraq currently are?

Jesus told them to use that bomb???
Muhammad pbuh told Saudi Arabia to kill civilians in Yemen??

Don't be absurd. If you're going to go down this route then we can blame it on Islam because Allah (who is allegedly all-powerful) didn't lift a finger to stop the bombs detonating or being made. But let's not go there because that is truly stupid.

The people who dropped the bomb were (more than likely) God-fearing Christians. The Saudis dropping bombs on Yemeni hospitals are self-declared Muslims (and no, I don't care whether you think they're 'true' Muslims or not).

Haven't u heard of hypocrites????

Yes, I have.

Iran: "We don't want to interfere in other countries' affairs like the imperialist Americans!" *supports Hezbollah, has soldiers violating Iraqi sovereignty*

Their punishments will be worse.

Yes, I'm sure

After 1400 years we just were capable of establishing theocracy so how did u conclude them all????experience????

Because I read about history. I'm talking about theocracies in general, not just the Islamic Republic of Iran which, ultimately, is little different from any other theocracy. It's concentrated power in the hands of a select few unanswerable clerics. It will end badly as these things always do.

Pious in Islam is different from yours

Indeed it is. We who keep the Old Gods do not believe ourselves to be their slaves because they are too powerful to need such petty things of us.

It's a lie
They are in our legislature and make law with others

Not a lie. I genuinely thought religious minorities were segregated to their own legislature. I apologise for this mistake.

Didn't understand

What don't I understand? Are you saying Iranians can leave Islam without fear of reprisals from the state?

A big lie

Again, the earthquake thing as well as your aforementioned attitude that women who reveal parts of their bodies shouldn't expect respect.

How did u collect these lies I wonder?

Look at this then. Also this link which explains that after he fell out with Khomeini, Ayatollah Montazeri's office was attacked, his religious school was shut and he was placed under house arrest for six years. After he died, the state broadcaster refused to use his Ayatollah title - calling him "the clerical figure of the rioters". All because he disagreed with the Supreme Leader.

I don't know you're honest or not although I think you aren't
So please consider my feelings I can't not to be honest

Typically those who defend tyrants and despots are the ones who need to resort to telling lies. That said, I don't think you're lying because I suspect you sincerely believe what you're telling me - without intent to deceive.

Sometimes we know something is right but our ego doesn't allow us to accept the truth

Ah, the ego-stroking position. 'You know my position is right even if you won't admit it'. That's pretty sad. I don't believe Islam is really the word of an all-knowing deity because it makes an unacceptable number of mistakes in its holy text (just to be clear, an unacceptable number of mistakes for an omniscient deity is any number greater than zero). Factor in its inherent intolerance, supremacism and imperialist aims, and you have what is quite possibly one of the biggest dangers to human freedom and development.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Have u ever read about the interpretation of this surah and traditions that are quoted!

Some infidels came to prophet and told them let's compromise
One year u worship our gods and one year we worship yours

And God sent this surah to say I will never do that

This surah has nothing to do with your claim

Okay, fair enough. I'm happy to be wrong on this.

So Islam doesn't get along with other faiths - it doesn't need to tolerate them. Thanks for confirming that and the notion that 'Islamophobia' is false.

I didn't say such thing
Did I tell that women that don't wear hijab aren't deserved to be respected??

Yes, you said it right here.

But a woman that reveals her beauty and her body to men shouldn't expect that men respect him

Thank goodness I'm here and u say such thing

Indeed. You could have just ran away instead of attempting to address my points.

I myself respect every women even those who are infidels but in a society everybody should respect laws

A claim countered by your previous statements.

Mince???!!!!!!
Meat??!?!?

Ah, sorry. I'm using 'mince' in a colloquial way here. Basically I think the Quran and its claims are rubbish, a mess, nonsensical. I don't think it is literally made of meat.

No when they see these verses they can't say that it's not God's words or law
Although being convinced is something personal

Listen to me. I am saying this to you, interminable: I am convinced the Quran is not the product of any god communicating with man. It is not a revealed book from an all-knowing deity. The Quran was written by men and it displays their prejudices, intolerance and ignorance of the world.

 

[Shad]

What about this one!!
الأحزاب
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (59)

You can quote whatever you want. It isn't going to change the fact that you thinking restricting women due to the acts of men is acceptable.

I told the other guy that there are lots of rules and laws about driving but how many people do observe them?

Doesn't matter as your point is irrelevant as these laws are not a gender based.

Governments spend money to teach drivers but it doesn't prevent them from being careless

Many government do not pay anything to educate their drivers at all. They do not restrict a gender's right to drive because of another gender's acts.

Besides I told u i don't deny that we should teach people specially men to respect women and we do that but they are who they are.

Yet you think restricting women for the acts of men is right...

So the best way is teaching and covering hijab as we do

No it is sexist.

There are some video clips that a woman wears nothing and walks on street and hears lots of nasty words but the same woman wears hijab and no one says anything

The video you are talking about is about 5 mins long. That is a horrible example. Besides there is a counter video from Egypt in which a woman with a hijab was harassed by Muslim men.

This is kind of protection not restriction

Since it is a law this is a restriction as all women must wear it. It isn't a choice.

At the end we have in our traditions that in the era of promised savior women can go everywhere alone without any problems and we wait for that day

Your traditions are stuck in a bygone era.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Repeating the claim

A claim which is true unless you wish to discount Muslim history beginning from the Ridda Wars onwards.

 

[interminable]

Oh, you think I'm making this up? Try looking at this link then. I'd offer you an Al Jazeera link but they don't seem to have covered the story in question.

God sometimes makes someone ill or sick just because he committed a great sin or to grow him up(just for gnostics for example)
This is one of the clearest things in my religion that if God wants to punish a beliver he would do so
But consider this fact that how god wants to do that????

Sometimes by dirty water or food and ....

So earthquake is one of them
There is no cleric that believes every earthquake is because of sins not at all

But in traditions we have that increasing in sexual sins will cause earthquake

The same is about flood and lightning and....

Since everything that happens is by leave of god he can do those above mentioned as a punishment for sins
What I'm trying to say is god does everything by material things so if he wants to punish he has to do that by using something he can't do that directly
In this case u think that it's just a move of continents while a beliver can think that it is maybe god's punishment

There are lots of verses that say god caused flood and shower of stone and...
Even about prophet Job god says we made him sick

Terrible analogy; you can choose to drive a vehicle you can't choose to be born a woman in a Muslim country.

Perfect analog
U say teaching is enough I say nope

You did when you said women must cover themselves to protect against men's lecherous advances. What about teaching men to exercise self-restraint?

Men shouldn't stare at women and except of face and hands can't look at their bodies

Which only addresses the symptoms of patriarchy and male rejection.

Didn't understand

It is. Why do you think men retaliate violently when women reject their advances? Why do you think women get acid thrown in their faces for rejecting offers of marriage? Male pride. And after all, why should men take responsibility for such feelings? It was the woman who caused him to feel hurt when she rejected him. She brought the attack upon herself.

Among 80 million people occurred 5 acid incidents
Why do u want to say this rare event happens every day and every time????
Be honest please

Maybe he is, maybe he is not. Since I can't see into the Ayatollah's mind, I can't say one way or the other.

I say he's u can trust me. Although u have a wrong idea about his election

This is simply untrue. While the Assembly of Experts appoints the Supreme Leader of Iran, the Guardian Council - which appoints the Assembly of Experts - is appointed by the Supreme Leader. Er go the Ayatollah cannot be removed from office except by force and such an action could immediately be declared treason.

There is a mistake here!
Guardian council doesn't appoint the assembly of experts
This council according to law confirm the competence of candidates then people vote. It's by people choice.
If the leader commits a great mistake or loses his piousness the assembly of experts will remove him.

And does the Iranian Army keep you personally apprised of the situation in Iraq?

We are aware of that
Secret news aren't always hidden

Can you contact your country's generals and ask them where exactly the American forces in Iraq currently are?

There are some countries that are involved in war in موصل (province in Iraq)
It's very evident

Don't be absurd. If you're going to go down this route then we can blame it on Islam because Allah (who is allegedly all-powerful) didn't lift a finger to stop the bombs detonating or being made. But let's not go there because that is truly stupid.

This is man's choice. Freedom of choosing good or bad.
God isn't supposed to stop every bad and evil things if he is supposed to do so he shouldn't have created this world with free choice
Instead he will punish or reward in hereafter

The people who dropped the bomb were (more than likely) God-fearing Christians. The Saudis dropping bombs on Yemeni hospitals are self-declared Muslims (and no, I don't care whether you think they're 'true' Muslims or not).

But I care it's very important
Just a pious clergy is appropriate to lead people not anymore else

Iran: "We don't want to interfere in other countries' affairs like the imperialist Americans!" *supports Hezbollah, has soldiers violating Iraqi sovereignty*

If we weren't there now it wasn't Syria or Iraq it was Israel instead

Besides our participant is by Syria's government request

Because I read about history. I'm talking about theocracies in general, not just the Islamic Republic of Iran which, ultimately, is little different from any other theocracy. It's concentrated power in the hands of a select few unanswerable clerics. It will end badly as these things always do.

If u let us to do our best we don't have these problems

Indeed it is. We who keep the Old Gods do not believe ourselves to be their slaves because they are too powerful to need such petty things of us.

God doesn't need us since everything he created is by his leave

Not a lie. I genuinely thought religious minorities were segregated to their own legislature. I apologise for this mistake.

Good

What don't I understand? Are you saying Iranians can leave Islam without fear of reprisals from the state?

If they leave country no there isn't such things but according to law they can't live in our Country

Look at this then. Also this link which explains that after he fell out with Khomeini, Ayatollah Montazeri's office was attacked, his religious school was shut and he was placed under house arrest for six years. After he died, the state broadcaster refused to use his Ayatollah title - calling him "the clerical figure of the rioters". All because he disagreed with the Supreme Leader.

Political issues aren't my bag but
Try to earn news from us not those who are our enemies!
Besides this man was so naive and that's why our late leader rejected him
He was under influence of hypocrites so he wasn't chosen by assembly of experts
Thank goodness these incidents happene during the lifetime of first leader

Typically those who defend tyrants and despots are the ones who need to resort to telling lies. That said, I don't think you're lying because I suspect you sincerely believe what you're telling me - without intent to deceive.

As u wish

Ah, the ego-stroking position. 'You know my position is right even if you won't admit it'. That's pretty sad. I don't believe Islam is really the word of an all-knowing deity because it makes an unacceptable number of mistakes in its holy text (just to be clear, an unacceptable number of mistakes for an omniscient deity is any number greater than zero). Factor in its inherent intolerance, supremacism and imperialist aims, and you have what is quite possibly one of the biggest dangers to human freedom and development.

Mistakes??

 

[interminable]

Okay, fair enough. I'm happy to be wrong on this.

So Islam doesn't get along with other faiths - it doesn't need to tolerate them. Thanks for confirming that and the notion that 'Islamophobia' is false.




Yes, you said it right here.






Indeed. You could have just ran away instead of attempting to address my points.




A claim countered by your previous statements.




Ah, sorry. I'm using 'mince' in a colloquial way here. Basically I think the Quran and its claims are rubbish, a mess, nonsensical. I don't think it is literally made of meat.




Listen to me. I am saying this to you, interminable: I am convinced the Quran is not the product of any god communicating with man. It is not a revealed book from an all-knowing deity. The Quran was written by men and it displays their prejudices, intolerance and ignorance of the world.

Quran has a claim
It says if u think I'm not a miracle bring like me just one surah
The smallest surah contains of 3 small verses

Infidels in mecca couldn't otherwise there wasn't any need to wage war against the prophet
So
U bring like it I will become an atheist not me all Muslims will become atheists

Miracle is miracle something that human can't.
Speaking is a common thing among mankind so everybody can try

 

[interminable]

You can quote whatever you want. It isn't going to change the fact that you thinking restricting women due to the acts of men is acceptable.



Doesn't matter as your point is irrelevant as these laws are not a gender based.



Many government do not pay anything to educate their drivers at all. They do not restrict a gender's right to drive because of another gender's acts.



Yet you think restricting women for the acts of men is right...



No it is sexist.



The video you are talking about is about 5 mins long. That is a horrible example. Besides there is a counter video from Egypt in which a woman with a hijab was harassed by Muslim men.



Since it is a law this is a restriction as all women must wear it. It isn't a choice.



Your traditions are stuck in a bygone era.

Now it's time to say
To each his own

 

[Akivah]

U overlook that in my country there is no brothel or somewhere that women can sell their bodies but in many countries there are such things
So don't say that they controlled their passions they just do that in another place
But since we can't have such places the best is what I said

You are ignoring the temporary marriage laws (e.g. Sigheh) that exist in Iran. Agree to monetary terms up front with a marriage duration of as little as three minutes. Just another name for prostitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iran

 

[Shad]

Now it's time to say
To each his own

Too bad you can not extend the above to women.

 

[Shad]

Quran has a claim
It says if u think I'm not a miracle bring like me just one surah
The smallest surah contains of 3 small verses

Irrelevant claim as it is shifting the burden of proof, a fallacy, which a human would do as an error not God.

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialscien...ER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

 

[Kemosloby]

Two sets of laws would be terribly confusing. The only one dumb enough to allow that to happen is Hillary.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Quran has a claim
It says if u think I'm not a miracle bring like me just one surah
The smallest surah contains of 3 small verses

A book revealed by an all-powerful deity doesn't need to issue a Kent Hovind challenge (to clarify: a 'Kent Hovind challenge' is one issued with conditions that the person issuing the challenge knows the other person cannot fulfil because they're beyond their limits) in order to prove its divine origins. The perfection of the Quran should be self-evident and things like language should not be a barrier. I have zero understanding of Arabic so I can't tell you how poetically beautiful or not the Quran is in that language but in English it's a poetic disaster; it's so boring. It doesn't have that entrancing effect I've heard alleged if you read it in Arabic.

Infidels in mecca couldn't otherwise there wasn't any need to wage war against the prophet

No reason beyond the fact Muhammad was slandering the entire city by telling them their gods were false - as if he was in a position to know. A city which had given him a pretty safe environment & wealth to grow up in and he was taking it all for granted, throwing it all back in their faces and claiming he knew better than everyone else. To the Meccans he was probably demonstrating monstrous levels of hubris.

So
U bring like it I will become an atheist not me all Muslims will become atheists

I make a habit of not engaging in Kent Hovind challenges. I have a million better things to do.

Miracle is miracle something that human can't.

So the Quran is quite obviously not a miracle because it was a human (or humans) who made it.

 

[interminable]

You are ignoring the temporary marriage laws (e.g. Sigheh) that exist in Iran. Agree to monetary terms up front with a marriage duration of as little as three minutes. Just another name for prostitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iran

What is difference between sheep's meat and pig's meat???
While the first is permitted and the other is forbidden
Should we know their reasons then act according to them????

This question can be asked about all of the laws of religion
The answer is simple( although it's very hard to accept) we have to obey god
If we proved that he's omniscient there is no question about his laws anymore
In this stage God can test that who truly believes in him


Honestly there are two issues that I couldn't convince myself about them this one (temporary marriage ) is one of them
Although we know that must be something behind this rule but I don't want to pretend that all the laws have a clear reasons
I don't want to pretend that I know everything about my religion
Our scholars have brought some reasons concerning this issue but they didn't convince me so I didn't brought them

The most important thing that we must regard here is that not convincing about some religion's laws can't ruin the whole of laws and religion's principles
Unfortunately some unbelievers think that everything in a religion should be based on rational matters and if something is unclear they reject the whole
This is not true at all
Hope I could convey my purpose

 

[interminable]

Irrelevant claim as it is shifting the burden of proof, a fallacy, which a human would do as an error not God.

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialscien...ER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

That article is true but u shouldn't have used that here

Sometimes a person claims something and has no evidence for that and he says u should reject my claim by providing something.
U can say his claim is completely empty

But for us it's different
I claimed that God exists and brought one evidence it was Qur'an itself

So I had a claim and provided an evidence for that

In this case u have to provide an evidence that God doesn't exist or simply corrupt or ruin my evidence

 

[interminable]

A book revealed by an all-powerful deity doesn't need to issue a Kent Hovind challenge (to clarify: a 'Kent Hovind challenge' is one issued with conditions that the person issuing the challenge knows the other person cannot fulfil because they're beyond their limits) in order to prove its divine origins. The perfection of the Quran should be self-evident and things like language should not be a barrier. I have zero understanding of Arabic so I can't tell you how poetically beautiful or not the Quran is in that language but in English it's a poetic disaster; it's so boring. It doesn't have that entrancing effect I've heard alleged if you read it in Arabic.




No reason beyond the fact Muhammad was slandering the entire city by telling them their gods were false - as if he was in a position to know. A city which had given him a pretty safe environment & wealth to grow up in and he was taking it all for granted, throwing it all back in their faces and claiming he knew better than everyone else. To the Meccans he was probably demonstrating monstrous levels of hubris.




I make a habit of not engaging in Kent Hovind challenges. I have a million better things to do.




So the Quran is quite obviously not a miracle because it was a human (or humans) who made it.

Sir I'm sure if God shows himself right now u will say maybe he is a liar maybe he pretends maybe it's my imagination maybe I'm in dream


So don't bother just prepare yourself for perdition
God doesn't expect from those who live in Africa and know nothing
But u are different your capacity shows something else

 

[Shad]

That article is true but u shouldn't have used that here

It was fine to use. Heck the article included miracles as an example

Sometimes a person claims something and has no evidence for that and he says u should reject my claim by providing something.

Which is fallacious

U can say his claim is completely empty

Which shifting the burden of proof shows

But for us it's different

No it isn't. You just thinking fallacious thinking should be acceptable.

I claimed that God exists and brought one evidence it was Qur'an itself

Those are two claims.

So I had a claim and provided an evidence for that

Not really as those are two claims

In this case u have to provide an evidence that God doesn't exist or simply corrupt or ruin my evidence

Nope. Shifting the burden of proof again.

Read the article again. You have a claim, nothing more