• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should the government create a law that requires Congress to balance the budget?

FredVB

Member
Our whole way of living in this world with civilization is really unsustainable. We should move out from cities of civilization with any others doing this to live on land in simplicity growing what things we can for what is needed, being in really small communities. Government structures can be dismantled. If they are not, they grow to be more powerful and controlling over people's lives. It has been going on all along.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Our whole way of living in this world with civilization is really unsustainable. We should move out from cities of civilization with any others doing this to live on land in simplicity growing what things we can for what is needed, being in really small communities. Government structures can be dismantled. If they are not, they grow to be more powerful and controlling over people's lives. It has been going on all along.
That's a bit naïve. Small communities can't support modern science, including medicine. There is a reason that the average life expectancy today is double that of prehistoric tribesmen.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member

Should the government create a law that requires Congress to balance the budget?​

Whynot? The law requires states to balance theirs.
 

FredVB

Member
That's a bit naïve. Small communities can't support modern science, including medicine. There is a reason that the average life expectancy today is double that of prehistoric tribesmen.

We lost, or more specifically our ancestors did, a huge amount of knowledge to survive well with, including about herbal medicines. This is what they and all of us were led to with civilization which we become very dependent on. Civilization really owes us for what we are deprived from. So, I am not against taking everything we benefit from having with science and medicine available now, while we should relearn old ways that were lost. We could live better.

Earlier people in civilization lived shorter lives on average than those people without civilization. And currently average life span is decreasing!
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'll say up front that I'm against this idea. If you think it's a good idea explain the benefits that you think make it worthwhile.

-Cheers.

I don't think the government is capable of doing this in a smart way.
The right way to do this would be to stimulate the economy so that tax revenue could cover the deficit.
If the government was smart enough to do this then it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Passing some arbitrary law will end up forcing the government to make drastic cuts, likely causing irreparable harm to the economy.
Either the government is too stupid or too corrupted to balance the budget in a good way.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'll say up front that I'm against this idea. If you think it's a good idea explain the benefits that you think make it worthwhile.

-Cheers.
I'd rather have a law that penalizes those responsible like withholding pay until passed.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
I don't think the government is capable of doing this in a smart way.

With respect, unless you've spent a very long time trying to understand our national system of money, I would suspect you probably don't understand how it works. And again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, our system of money is, in many ways, counter intuitive. To understand it you first have to understand double entry accounting informally defined as something, like:

Double entry accounting is a method of bookkeeping where every financial transaction is recorded in two separate accounts to show how money moves in and out of a business or government. This system ensures that every transaction has an equal effect on both sides of the accounts, helping to maintain accurate and balanced financial records.

Now, most people can either easily grasp this idea or already understand it, yet fail to understand how it explains the system of money we have and how we ignore it.

I highlight this concept by asking the question to people I know when on this topic:

"Is it possible for a person to spend money without someone else earning an income?".

Of course the answer is no.

But if that's true, then it's opposite also has to be true:

If someone doesn't spend money, then other people don't earn money.

Duh.

The paradox of thrift explains this by pointing out that if everyone saved their money, then no one else would earn money and an economy would fail because economies literally run on sales. Spending is necessary.

Again, I'm just taking a very long time to say that every transaction has two sides per side or a total of four entries.


For example. I buy a pack of gum from the corner store. There are four entries on the ledger.

Me:
+gum
-money

Store
-gum
+money

Ok, so what does this have to do with anything?

People generally agree that less government spending would be good because it would save money. But, I assert that the government cannot "save money" any more that not speaking all day "saves words". You can choose not to speak, but that doesn't give you any more words to speak tomorrow any more than the government not spending means the government has more dollars to spend in the future.

Why? Because the limitation on speaking has nothing to do with the words themselves. There are constraints on how much you can speak, but there is no pile of words that you have saved. Similarly, government doesn't have a pile of money that it draws from that might some day run out. Dollars, or more accurately the creation of them is not the limitation on spending.

Just as a limitation on speaking might be something like Oxygen, the limitation on spending is productivity. Alan Greenspan, in a rate moment of clarity and wisdom once said: "The government can create all the money it wants and pay it to someone (now I'm paraphrasing), but the key is to understand that there has to be resources to create the things that people will purchase with the money the government creates. The money is nice to have, but it is only valuable in the context of real goods and services".

In other words, the private sector economy both relies on money the government creates and the private sector's productivity (or it's potential productivity) limits how much money the government can create.

Now, saying that you don't trust government is one thing, but what are the alternatives? Crypto? Private sector going back to script created by individual private banks? While the government certainly has it's problems, these ideas are far worse.
The right way to do this would be to stimulate the economy so that tax revenue could cover the deficit.

That's just it. Why would you want to cover the deficit?

Remember that taxes remove money from the economy, every dollar removed is a dollar that isn't spent and a dollar that isn't spent isn't earned. And not to make this any more difficult, but on average, a single dollar will change hands more than once, so each dollar you remove actually removes more that one dollar in sales in the economy.

Remember what I said about double entry accounting? It we zoom out, all the way, there is government and the private sector. now let's do the same double entry accounting for taxes.

Me:

-money
+meet my tax obligation

Government
+money
-one less tax obligation

Now in reality it's slightly different for government. I said +money, but in reality, the government, in a fiat system as we have now, can nover have money, it can only have less debt.

So the government starts at zero. So let's use this oversimplification. There is no money, and no productivity until the government asks me to make a widget and offers to pay me $100

So:

Government:

-$100
+Widget

Me

-Widget
+$100


The government's debt, now $100 is my asset (where I am a stand in for the private sector).

If the government balances it's budget it would tax back the $100 and we'd all (the gov and the private sector) be back to zero.

The government can't have dollars because it only taxes money it creates and spends into the economy. If there are no dollars in the private sector, there cannot be more taxes. The government can only get back to zero in it's own money.

The point here is that the government deficits (the debt) are the government's liabilities, but the government's liabilities are (fiscal) assets in the private sector.

Basically, what I'm telling you is, we shouldn't balance the budget, we should balance the economy.
Passing some arbitrary law will end up forcing the government to make drastic cuts, likely causing irreparable harm to the economy.

Laws are created by people the public votes for. Politicians tend to think as their constituents do. That debt is bad, it represents a moral failing, a lack of responsibility. So we get exactly what we deserve and ironically we blame the politicians because the results are bad because the public doesn't understand how our system of money works. If the public did understand, they would vote for people who do understand (of course, there are very few politicians that understand).

Now a little speculation. The people who are filthy rich don't want you to understand what I just told you because if everyone did, we could minimize economy boom and bust cycles. And that's how the wealthy make money, on disruption in our economy between cycles. People vote for things and politicians carry out things that cause the very problems they want to avoid.

So I would agree that government isn't capable of being smart because the people that put them there don't understand.

Knowledge is key. Unfortunately, our money system hasn't always worked the same way and unlearning is just as hard if not harder than learning.

Apologies up front for the length. If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

-Cheers

EG
 
Last edited:

EconGuy

Active Member
Our whole way of living in this world with civilization is really unsustainable. We should move out from cities of civilization with any others doing this to live on land in simplicity growing what things we can for what is needed, being in really small communities. Government structures can be dismantled. If they are not, they grow to be more powerful and controlling over people's lives. It has been going on all along.

This is one of those things that might be right, that is the world may be better doing what you describe, but in practice it would never happen. It's no different than firearms. If everyone would just turn them in, no one would need them, but if just a tiny fraction keeps there's, no one will turn them in.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
Yes, it could be. America is filled with examples that ignore the Constitution. Like the prohibitions on slavery and tests of religious faith to hold public office.

Laws with respect to finances, based on numbers are not the same as interpretations of the Constitution (like the first and second amendments). In some cases the framers of the Constitution we're intentionally vague because precision at that time was difficult given the fragile nature of the birth of our nation. It was thought that people would interpret these rules and amend the Constitution if necessary, but the Amendment process turned out to be a little harder then they could have known.

That said, I'm not sure it's worth speculating about whether a potential law could just be brushed aside.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That said, I'm not sure it's worth speculating about whether a potential law could just be brushed aside.
It's not speculation. The state will do what it wants to do.
That, and I agree a balanced budget amendment should not be passed, and have nothing else to add but that I do believe it likely those who pass it would be the first to make excuses to not do it.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
It's not speculation. The state will do what it wants to do.
That, and I agree a balanced budget amendment should not be passed, and have nothing else to add but that I do believe it likely those who pass it would be the first to make excuses to not do it.
I'll just say that if it was passed, I sure hope it would be ignored as it would destroy the economy.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
With respect, unless you've spent a very long time trying to understand our national system of money, I would suspect you probably don't understand how it works. And again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, our system of money is, in many ways, counter intuitive. To understand it you first have to understand double entry accounting informally defined as something, like:

Double entry accounting is a method of bookkeeping where every financial transaction is recorded in two separate accounts to show how money moves in and out of a business or government. This system ensures that every transaction has an equal effect on both sides of the accounts, helping to maintain accurate and balanced financial records.

Now, most people can either easily grasp this idea or already understand it, yet fail to understand how it explains the system of money we have and how we ignore it.

I highlight this concept by asking the question to people I know when on this topic:

"Is it possible for a person to spend money without someone else earning an income?".

Of course the answer is no.

But if that's true, then it's opposite also has to be true:

If someone doesn't spend money, then other people don't earn money.

Duh.

The paradox of thrift explains this by pointing out that if everyone saved their money, then no one else would earn money and an economy would fail because economies literally run on sales. Spending is necessary.

Again, I'm just taking a very long time to say that every transaction has two sides per side or a total of four entries.


For example. I buy a pack of gum from the corner store. There are four entries on the ledger.

Me:
+gum
-money

Store
-gum
+money

Ok, so what does this have to do with anything?

People generally agree that less government spending would be good because it would save money. But, I assert that the government cannot "save money" any more that not speaking all day "saves words". You can choose not to speak, but that doesn't give you any more words to speak tomorrow any more than the government not spending means the government has more dollars to spend in the future.

Why? Because the limitation on speaking has nothing to do with the words themselves. There are constraints on how much you can speak, but there is no pile of words that you have saved. Similarly, government doesn't have a pile of money that it draws from that might some day run out. Dollars, or more accurately the creation of them is not the limitation on spending.

Just as a limitation on speaking might be something like Oxygen, the limitation on spending is productivity. Alan Greenspan, in a rate moment of clarity and wisdom once said: "The government can create all the money it wants and pay it to someone (now I'm paraphrasing), but the key is to understand that there has to be resources to create the things that people will purchase with the money the government creates. The money is nice to have, but it is only valuable in the context of real goods and services".

In other words, the private sector economy both relies on money the government creates and the private sector's productivity (or it's potential productivity) limits how much money the government can create.

The point of my post had nothing to do with the idea that the government needs to save money. The point of my post is about intelligent spending. Also as I pointed out trying to force the government to cut spending is likely to be detrimental to the economy. So the above may be relevant to others but unnecessary to my point.

Now, saying that you don't trust government is one thing, but what are the alternatives? Crypto? Private sector going back to script created by individual private banks? While the government certainly has it's problems, these ideas are far worse.

I'm not criticizing the monetary system, just the government's attempt to influence it.

That's just it. Why would you want to cover the deficit?

Remember that taxes remove money from the economy, every dollar removed is a dollar that isn't spent and a dollar that isn't spent isn't earned. And not to make this any more difficult, but on average, a single dollar will change hands more than once, so each dollar you remove actually removes more that one dollar in sales in the economy.

Remember what I said about double entry accounting? It we zoom out, all the way, there is government and the private sector. now let's do the same double entry accounting for taxes.

Me:

-money
+meet my tax obligation

Government
+money
-one less tax obligation

Now in reality it's slightly different for government. I said +money, but in reality, the government, in a fiat system as we have now, can nover have money, it can only have less debt.

So the government starts at zero. So let's use this oversimplification. There is no money, and no productivity until the government asks me to make a widget and offers to pay me $100

So:

Government:

-$100
+Widget

Me

-Widget
+$100


The government's debt, now $100 is my asset (where I am a stand in for the private sector).

If the government balances it's budget it would tax back the $100 and we'd all (the gov and the private sector) be back to zero.

The government can't have dollars because it only taxes money it creates and spends into the economy. If there are no dollars in the private sector, there cannot be more taxes. The government can only get back to zero in it's own money.

The point here is that the government deficits (the debt) are the government's liabilities, but the government's liabilities are (fiscal) assets in the private sector.

Basically, what I'm telling you is, we shouldn't balance the budget, we should balance the economy.

Well two things. The government would choose to take money out of the economy to limit things like inflation. If you pour money into the economy so people have more money, sellers will take advantage of that and drive up prices since people will be willing to pay more for the same product or even pay more for less. Nobody benefits from that. In fact you are losing ground.
Regardless the point is that there are intelligent reasons for the government to remove money from the system.

Secondly, how do we know if we are balancing the economy? One thing I learned is that throwing money at a problem doesn't guarantee that the problem is going to get fixed. So how do you know whether your spending policy is being effective? How do you know the economy is going in the right direction?

A way to do this is by monitoring tax revenue. The more tax revenue an economy is generating the more booming the economy. Again this is not about forcing the government to "save" money but gauging how effect government spending policies are.

Laws are created by people the public votes for. Politicians tend to think as their constituents do. That debt is bad, it represents a moral failing, a lack of responsibility. So we get exactly what we deserve and ironically we blame the politicians because the results are bad because the public doesn't understand how our system of money works. If the public did understand, they would vote for people who do understand (of course, there are very few politicians that understand).

Now a little speculation. The people who are filthy rich don't want you to understand what I just told you because if everyone did, we could minimize economy boom and bust cycles. And that's how the wealthy make money, on disruption in our economy between cycles. People vote for things and politicians carry out things that cause the very problems they want to avoid.

So I would agree that government isn't capable of being smart because the people that put them there don't understand.

This is where I'll disagree. It is not necessary that a politician think like their constituents. They only need to publicly display themselves as doing so. They have committees behind them telling them how to present themselves to effectively get votes. So no guarantees of your knowing how a politician thinks.

There are a number of ways people can get wealthy. However I don't understand this idea of getting rich by disrupting the economy unless you mean people taking advantage of inflation as I mentioned before because of ineffectual government spending. i.e. the government being unconcerned with a balanced budget.

Knowledge is key. Unfortunately, our money system hasn't always worked the same way and unlearning is just as hard if not harder than learning.

Right and the way to gain knowledge is by monitoring a set of key indicators like a balanced budget.

If the government need not be concerned about its speeding then why do you think the government bothers to tax us at all?
 
Last edited:

Mr. Ed

Member
If the government were required to balance chaos would occur and favoritism backed by money and power would tilt unfavorably to social and human services.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll say up front that I'm against this idea. If you think it's a good idea explain the benefits that you think make it worthwhile.

-Cheers.
A law, no. An amendment to the constitution yes. A law would not be enforceable (by the Supreme Court) enough to allow for quick decision making when other bills were written, so it would fail and backfire and make things worse. The next Congress could repeal a law, but an amendment would be more difficult to repeal. If we amended the Constitution then lawmakers would have a means of steering all of the results and could hope to truly balance the budget.

What I think would happen is that Congress would, under a requirement to balance the budget, shift expenses (and therefore power) to the states.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I'll say up front that I'm against this idea. If you think it's a good idea explain the benefits that you think make it worthwhile.

-Cheers.
A balanced budget would require a higher level of competency from our elected officials. Any moron can be over budget. The stupidest person, when given a task and budget, will never be on budget. Such an amendment would be a good way to screen people who run for office and help keep out the incompetent. Competency would need to part of the balanced budge amendment. We need more money managers and fewer lawyers, since lawyers are better at drama, than balancing a budget. The elected lawyers waste too much time on TV.

Name me any other place in the culture where you can run a budget with a negative rate of return, and not go belly up and be replaced. People need to balance their home budgets, so why not expect that of the leaders? Why be forced to put stupid and corrupt up on a pedestal?

I would not only like to see a balance budget, but a Government investment attitude than can get a positive rate of return, so citizens do not mind investing in Government. With the current minus 10% rate of return it is the worse investment on earth. The COVID fund has $200 billion missing. This tells us over budget is connected politics and rip off scams. There is plenty of waste that can trimmed, but it may require trimming the incompetent managers ,who think this is their money, and not the money of the American tax payer.

As an example, building the border wall would have saved money compare to the open border policy and the expanses associated with all the refugees, that we were not prepared to absorb. This is how waste happens and a negative rate of return perpetuates; stupid people in power who do not think they need to be cost effective.

After the border wall, you have a large door, where people can be accepted, after/as the logistics are set up, so the there is no further burden on town budgets; forced local negative rate of return for tax payers. Stupid people in office, who are used to being wasteful, think taxes are their own slush fund.

In NYC, they decided to put immigrant up in hotels. How much does that cost? Wouldn't it have made more sense for a less expensive way to be prepared in advance? Stupid is what stupid does.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
The point of my post had nothing to do with the idea that the government needs to save money. The point of my post is about intelligent spending. Also as I pointed out trying to force the government to cut spending is likely to be detrimental to the economy. So the above may be relevant to others but unnecessary to my point.

Then my apologies for misunderstanding your point.
I'm not criticizing the monetary system, just the government's attempt to influence it.

Do you think there is a better alternative?
Well two things. The government would choose to take money out of the economy to limit things like inflation.

Quite right, as I said, the limitation on spending is productivity. Inflation happens when demand exceeds supply. However, I think one of the mistakes that most people make is they underestimate the worlds capacity to absorb net new dollars without creating inflation.

Further, domestically, how might you measure that capacity?

One way it to look at a chart that measures how much capital resources that companies report they own relative to how much of those resources are being utilized. Under utilization generally means that productivity could increase without expensive capital investment.

1692624871209.png


Both charts show the same thing, the point is there is a buffer between utilization and capacity, at least domestically.
sellers will take advantage of that and drive up prices since people will be willing to pay more for the same product or even pay more for less.


First, let's be clear, the entire world experienced inflation as a result of COVID because, as you can see from the chart here in the US, there was a pretty massive dip is capacity utilization. This caused massive disruption and lead to shortages. That said, companies were also profit taking, in that their increases in prices exceeded their costs. Of course just as the wage spirals in the late 1970's lead to price increases, companies are causing cost spirals as their inflate costs and pass those costs on to each other. Competition is supposed to prevent this, but given the consolidation in private space that's taken place over the last 30-40 years, we now have just a handful of companies controlling, for example, most of our food.

1692625516780.png


Thus it only takes a handful of decisions at the highest levels to increases prices though corporate policy (i.e. there isn't enough competition.

Evidence?

Comparing all recent periods of inflation with the one that took place during COVID is revealing.

1692625688378.png


As you can see labor AND net input costs have contributed less to inflation than the surge in cooperate profits. That's not to say that I think corporations are bad, I just think as a nation we've done a poor job regulating them and are now (litterally) paying for it.
Regardless the point is that there are intelligent reasons for the government to remove money from the system.

No, there aren't. That's called austerity, where the solution to running out of oxygen in a room is to choke people so they stop using it, rather than just add more oxygen. Sure both accomplish the same thing, but one causes immense suffering for most of the population.

And yes, in real terms there are enough resources to ensure that austerity isn't necessary.
Secondly, how do we know if we are balancing the economy?

I admit that is a complex question, but to give you a simple answer....Unemployment is a good measure. U6 unemployment measures how many people are looking for work and cant find it. You could also look at the number of jobs in a region relative to how many people are out of work.

Of course you'd have to keep an eye on the capacity utilization chart and limitations on real resources, especially energy which is volatile speculative market that has an outsized influence on inflation.

In other words, if there are people looking for work and work that needs to be done, your economy is probably unbalanced unless there are other structural issues. If there are, the solution is to address those issues (whatever they are).
One thing I learned is that throwing money at a problem doesn't guarantee that the problem is going to get fixed.

That's right, taken in a vacuum "throwing" things around won't ever work, at least sustainably.


If you and I are going to agree on what the fix is, we'd first have to define what the goals we believe are goals that should be pursued by our government and in the private sector. Only then could we evaluate our opinions in the context of what is happening in the country.

That said, spending money into our economy is necessary, but I think we'd agree that all spending doesn't achieve the goals I think we could probably agree are "good". But then the solution isn't the level of spending, rather how the money is being spent.
A way to do this is by monitoring tax revenue. The more tax revenue an economy is generating the more booming the economy. Again this is not about forcing the government to "save" money but gauging how effect government spending policies are.

First, let's establish something, then I'll circle back to taxes and their purpose.

What do we do as a nation when inflation get's to high? We increase interest rates. The idea being that increasing rates will slow spending. and slow spending will allow productivity to level out against demand. Most people believe it is too much spending or, too much money in the private sector that is the cause (thought I don't always agree with this take), but ironically, increasing interest rates has the opposite effect. Well, in fairness it does both. Higher rates hurt people who are in the bottom 2/3rds of income earnings. But it helps those in the top 10%, and adds billions of dollar in new money into the economy. This might explain the disconnect between the stock market doing well while the rest of the country isn't doing so well, because people with lots of money are being paid to save and their using that income to buy more investments.

1692627844479.png


The red circle is money paid out to holders of US treasuries. So while interest rates are increased to decrease spending in the economy, it is simultaneously adding billions of net new dollars in interest revenues back into the economy into the hands of the people that need it the least. Which, IMO is why when you ask anyone in the bottom 1/2 of the economy how they feel about it, they'll tell you, pay is down and prices are up.

Taxes are the only method to control inflation driven by spending. That is one of the purposes of taxes, to maintain the spending power of the dollar (i.e. control inflation).

But, Congress cannot enact tax increases on the people that have most of the money (and are driving most of the inflation) because of how much those politicians rely on the donations of the people they need to tax in order to control inflation. So instead the job falls to the Fed who thinks they have any control at all.

Of course people are continually surprised that all of this money isn't creating run-away-inflation (though people like Peter Schiff has been telling anyone who will listen we're right on the cusp of a spending fueled inflation collapse to anyone who will listen over the last 20 years).

Right and the way to gain knowledge is by monitoring a set of key indicators like a balanced budget.

This part of the conversation could get very long, so I'll give you a short example of an "economy" that is balanced and I hope it will make sense why it wouldn't work.

How does one get into a movie theater? With a ticket. The ticket is the currency of the theater. If you try to give the usher $15 he'll send you back to the ticket counter to get a ticket. What is the ticket? Just like the dollar it is a debt from the theaters perspective. As long as you hold the ticket you are owed a seat. It is your asset and the theaters debt.

When you enter the theater the usher destroys it by ripping it in half. Thus 100% of the tickets created are destroyed. This is an example of a balanced budget. The problem is that zero tickets would circulate as all of the tickets created are destroyed in short order.

But if you wanted to ensure there were tickets in circulation you'd have to issue more than were destroyed.

So, let's say you issue 10,000 tickets in a day, but only redeem 1,000, now 9,000 are circulating. That is the money we use and roughly how it works. The government spends money and taxes back some portion of it leaving some amount to remain in circulation as money to be used (economists call this "private sector savings").

But what happens if the population grows, productivity increases? Well, you are going to need more tickets. You're going to have to run a larger debt, but you can't if you have a balanced budget. The money in circulation cannot increase (unless you use private sector debt which has very finite limits).


The point is, when you balance the budget you ensure that your economy cannot grow, it is locked in at the moment you balance the budget. But population doesn't stop, so in 30 years when the population increases by 100,000,000 people they are going to be competing for the same number of dollars as there were the day the decision was made to balance the budget.

Balancing the budget would initially cause private sector borrowing to go up (pre-2008 like, until the private sector was maxed out and the system would crash and make 2008 look like party time.

Excellent conversation, apologies for my long-windedness. Being brief was never my strong suit. I just hope you found it interesting if not compelling. If not, I look forward to your reply.

Respectfully,

EG
 
Last edited:

EconGuy

Active Member
A balanced budget would require a higher level of competency from our elected officials.


Your right anyone could balance a budget. All you'd have to do is raise taxes enough to decrease the deficit to zero.

Let's look at the deficit over the last few years:

1692632245927.png


Starting in 2022 and going back just ten years, If each of those years had had a balanced budget how would you accomplish it?

There are a few choices.


Reduce spending by the amount of the deficit, increase taxes by the amount of the deficit or some combination of both.

The result $11 trillion less dollars circulating in the US economy over 10 years. And remember, each dollar circulates and passes though multiple hands, thus cutting spending has to be multiplied by the velocity of our dollar. Which today is about 1.4so 1.4x 11t=$15.4 trillion.

But as the amount of deficit spending decreases, velocity is sure to increase, so this number would likely be higher, but let's just run with $15 trillion.

What do you think our economy would be like with $15 trillion dollars less in spending?

Remember that GDP is a measure of spending (imperfect I'll grant you, but it's still a decent broad indicator).

So, the economy would shrink at a massive pace with a balanced budget. The US would likely see a depression that would make the 1920 look mild by comparison.

So what part of the economy do want to take $11 trillion dollars from $15 trillion adjusted for velocity.
Name me any other place in the culture where you can run a budget with a negative rate of return, and not go belly up and be replaced.

Well let's look at that....

Taking the economy as a whole, private and public sectors....

Looking at total debt vs total assets, dam, I'd say we're doing pretty dam good.

1692633037425.png


Wealth is 6 times the debt. Scale that down, a company with $32 million in debt and $195 million in assets. Give that CEO a raise.

All joking aside, if we look at assets per citizen, $582,000 maybe we begin to see the real issue.

25% of Americans have nothing saved and just 7% have more than $500k.

So while on average Americans have over $500k in assets, just 7% or more actually have that much, which means that the the top 7% have a LOT of money. So it looks more like the disproportionality is the problem, not the amounts.
As an example, building the border wall would have saved money compare to the open border policy and the expanses associated with all the refugees, that we were not prepared to absorb.

While creating walls in some places makes perfect sense, in other places it does not. Further, your comment assumes that a wall would actually work. I mean, I want you to imagine the perseverance it takes to walk from anywhere in south America, though all of Central America and Mexico and imagine anyone that persisted though all of that being beaten by 30' wall.

I'm not saying it would do nothing, but people are resilient and resourceful and would beat your $25 billion dollar wall fairly easily relative to the price.

Setting aside the wall issue for a second, keeping people out of the US has dire economic consequences in industries in the US. I don't have an issue with creating a secure boarder where everyone that enters does so though a process, but that process is being abused on all sides to fulfill political agendas rather than taking a smart look at what is needed.

One side tried to decrease limitations and the other side increases them and they both have issues because policy on immigration is run by extremists, mostly because images like this:

1692634177926.png


Play to both sides.

One side sees and "invasion" the other side sees a "needless humanitarian crisis.

A solution exists but neither of the extremes will ever find it because their getting too much political mileage out of images like this. Cruel callus Republicans vs open boarders Democrats. Neither is true, but the Information Industrial Complex aka mainstream news needs viewers and this stuff is made for TV.

But I digress.

Building a wall for $15 billion dollars (as some estimates say) and spending $1-$5 billion a year to maintain it will cause more economic harm than good if it's not put into place with other common sense policies.

After the border wall, you have a large door, where people can be accepted, after/as the logistics are set up, so the there is no further burden on town budgets; forced local negative rate of return for tax payers.

Ill just say you are right, it's not fair that immigrants are putting pressure on small towns. But I think think that's the plan and those towns are sacrificial lambs used to drive a political agenda.
 
Top