Should Tipping be Banned?

[Terrywoodenpic]

OK, lets do things your way. Where will these extra wages come from? If I was running a food establishment and wanted to stay open, my wage costs must be within a certain percentage.

If I paid my help more, I would have to charge more for the food. That would increase my "to go" orders prices. People who just want food should not pay as much as someone who spends an hour being waited on hand and foot.

Another issue is, if my help did not have to bust their chops for tips, my service would decline as there would be no incentive for on and beyond service any more.

To bottom line things, the way you want things to work, we would all pay more for less.

I have never had a Tip in my life
This never stopped an employer finding employing me profitable or worth while.
I was always paid a worth while salary.
My employer knew if he did not do so I would move on.

When the boot was on the other foot, my staff were paid competitively so that they wanted to stay.

A businessman should know what a price for his product should be.
In the UK a take away price is not the same as a table price. Though only in bottom end establishments would both be on offer.

Service does not decline with out tips. A better ploy might be to offer staff a sales incentive. this is always a win win.

 

[HonestJoe]

If I paid my help more, I would have to charge more for the food. That would increase my "to go" orders prices. People who just want food should not pay as much as someone who spends an hour being waited on hand and foot.

There's no reason why sit-down and take-out prices must be the same or in that case you might be able to make an argument for a fixed-percentage service charge. But in generally, the amount of money the customers hand over would be pretty much the same.

Another issue is, if my help did not have to bust their chops for tips, my service would decline as there would be no incentive for on and beyond service any more.

If you're incapable of incentivising your staff, that'd be your problem. All the business where tipping doesn't happen seem to manage - why should restaurants, hotels, taxis and hairdressers be (somewhat random!) exceptions?

Anyway, there is no objection here to individual staff getting tips for exceptional service. The key word is exceptional though. It is the idea of tipping being the default, even compulsory, position and that being abused, especially in the restaurant industry, that is the issue.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, lets do things your way. Where will these extra wages come from? If I was running a food establishment and wanted to stay open, my wage costs must be within a certain percentage.

Tips and meal prices all come from the same customer.

If I paid my help more, I would have to charge more for the food. That would increase my "to go" orders prices. People who just want food should not pay as much as someone who spends an hour being waited on hand and foot.

I've been to restaurants that have different prices for eat in and take out.

Another issue is, if my help did not have to bust their chops for tips, my service would decline as there would be no incentive for on and beyond service any more.

IMO, if a manager can't figure out any way to motivate staff than to get the customers other than making tips a huge part of their pay, then he's a ****-poor manager.

To bottom line things, the way you want things to work, we would all pay more for less.

And to me, the bottom line is this: tips allow plausible deniability for the restaurant owner when his wait staff's pay is based on things that he has no justifiable reason for using as the basis for compensation: things like the size of a waitress' breasts or how much she flirts with customers. If he came right out and said "I'll pay you an extra __ per hour if you wear a shirt that shows off your cleavage", he'd get sued.

That's what the tipping issue is largely about, IMO.

 

[Falvlun]

Tipping is not a LAW! Tipping is just DUH... what decent humans do for services rendered!
Don't ask/expect for the service if you have a problem tipping.

I don't think I have ever been tipped for drawing someone's blood. Should you not expect me to draw your blood since you likely won't tip me for doing so?

 

[DallasApple]

I don't think I have ever been tipped for drawing someone's blood. Should you not expect me to draw your blood since you likely won't tip me for doing so?

Of course I should expect you to draw my blood.Its a known /assumed/ by me when I pay my $5,000 deductable and my insurance company pays the other 15,000 for the 4 hour visit to the emergency room that you got paid.

 

[Falvlun]

Of course I should expect you to draw my blood.Its a known /assumed/ by me when I pay my $5,000 deductable and my insurance company pays the other 15,000 for the 4 hour visit to the emergency room that you got paid.

So, tipping isn't what "decent humans do" and we should expect services despite not tipping everyone. Tipping is merely a social custom only associated with particular jobs. If you are willing to pay me indirectly for my service through my employer, then what exactly is indecent about paying a waitress indirectly for her service through her employer?

 

[DallasApple]

o, tipping isn't what "decent humans do" and we should expect services despite not tipping everyone.

I tip people who I am fully aware that is how their pay structure is set up.They WORK for tips.If you want "tips" get a job that you rely on tips for your survival.I was a waitress years ago not for long but I was paid $2.50 an hour + tips. Its a performance based pay structure.I also got paid under minimum wage hourly at another job that was + commission.Shoe sales.Oh and later PC's.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I don't think I have ever been tipped for drawing someone's blood. Should you not expect me to draw your blood since you likely won't tip me for doing so?

You don't get paid 2 dollars and change an hour, do you? Being a server is far from a salary job...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I tip people who I am fully aware that is how their pay structure is set up.They WORK for tips.If you want "tips" get a job that you rely on tips for your survival.I was a waitress years ago not for long but I was paid $2.50 an hour + tips. Its a performance based pay structure.I also got paid under minimum wage hourly at another job that was + commission.Shoe sales.Oh and later PC's.

I'm glad someone else understands this. We servers get no respect...

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm glad someone else understands this. We servers get no respect...

If you really believe this, then you don't notice those of us who do give respect....& 20% tips.
We customers get no respect!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

We customers get no respect!

I'm usually happy to get a single drink refill sometime during the visit.

 

[DallasApple]

. If you are willing to pay me indirectly for my service through my employer, then what exactly is indecent about paying a waitress indirectly for her service through her employer?

I suppose nothing.But its not set up that way.And I will tell you one thing.No way on the highway I would take minimum wage to wait tables all night(or day) either.So expect to start paying $25 for a hamburger and fries at Chili's so they can afford me wait on your (not YOU) obnoxious irritating self with a smile on my face.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

If you really believe this, then you don't notice those of us who do give respect....& 20% tips.
We customers get no respect!

You are a rare breed indeed my friend. Most people are terrible tippers, and talk you up the whole time too. The number of times I've heard "You're an excellent server, this is the best service we've ever had at this restaurant" followed by a 10% tip...

 

[DallasApple]

I'm usually happy to get a single drink refill sometime during the visit.

That's the beauty of it! Poor service? Low tip. Exceptional service? Gracious compensation.

There have been times where I have actually been sad to leave because I may never see my waitress or waiter again!

Other times I was thinking they may want to rethink their line of occupation.

 

[DallasApple]

You are a rare breed indeed my friend. Most people are terrible tippers, and talk you up the whole time too. The number of times I've heard "You're an excellent server, this is the best service we've ever had at this restaurant" followed by a 10% tip...

15% should be the aim.For even average service.I also take into account not EVERYTHING is the servers fault if something goes wrong. Or that they may have messed up because they are short staffed etc..The wait staff is at the mercy of the chef's/cooks/the management and things unforseen.

And they RELY on tips to live.And I know that BEFORE I go to the resturant. It takes talent .Its like "acting" to remain friendly,apologetic ,upbeat etc ...for tips.

I don't expect someone who draws my blood to have a big smile on their face or even remotely entertain me.And my interaction with them isn't a "social" event that could make or break my experience.

I guess I could "tip" someone who draws my blood because I didn't even feel the needle go in .They were THAT good.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

15% should be the aim.For even average service.I also take into account not EVERYTHING is the servers fault if something goes wrong. Or that they may have messed up because they are short staffed etc..The wait staff is at the mercy of the chef's/cooks/the management and things unforseen.

Another thing people fail to understand. If I had a nickel for every time I got reamed by a customer because the line cooks screwed up their order... And there's always the people that insisted on sitting in an empty section near yours, you're swamped, and nobody told you you're supposed to take the table. By the time you get there they've been sitting for 5-10 minutes with nothing and the interaction is horrible before it even begins.

And they RELY on tips to live.And I know that BEFORE I go to the resturant. It takes talent .Its like "acting" to remain friendly,apologetic ,upbeat etc ...for tips.

Oh yeah... I get one of those obnoxious tables at least once a day that really test my patience. Not only am I forced to keep up my friendly front with them, but I have to stop my frustration from showing to all my other tables as well... It's infuriating, and probably the reason I smoke cigarettes

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Another thing people fail to understand. If I had a nickel for every time I got reamed by a customer because the line cooks screwed up their order... And there's always the people that insisted on sitting in an empty section near yours, you're swamped, and nobody told you you're supposed to take the table. By the time you get there they've been sitting for 5-10 minutes with nothing and the interaction is horrible before it even begins.

Oh yeah... I get one of those obnoxious tables at least once a day that really test my patience. Not only am I forced to keep up my friendly front with them, but I have to stop my frustration from showing to all my other tables as well... It's infuriating, and probably the reason I smoke cigarettes

I waited tables for years when I danced professionally. It was the one way I knew I could eat every night I got off work.

Didn't know if you saw my earlier posts in this thread, but your frustrations are understood by me. I tip minimum 15% if the service is less than stellar. Most of the time I tip 20% at the low end, 30% on the high end, and if the service is absolutely spectacular I've been known to tip higher than that. But the vast majority of times I've been out I'd say service was satisfactory.

I think when people think of poor service, many times it's out of the servers control. When it is under the servers control, an apology followed by an offer might alleviate things. But I have found in this area, this demographic where there is only a small handful of fine dining establishments that cater specifically to the wealthy, most people arrive with an entitlement mentality expecting the world and more from sit-down dinner service.

Is it really my fault that a table of Muslims sat down close to them? Was I responsible for their horrible dining experience because of that? And when we're suddenly slammed and I'm taking care of 10+ tables at once, even when I let the tables know that I will get to their requests ASAP, if I don't bring them an extra tub of butter for their baked potato soon enough, did that really warrant leaving no tip?

Same thing with me when it came to being educated on what makes a good tip. I've had my fair share of "That was wonderful!" when I would ask how the meal was, and if they needed anything else. Next thing you know....bang....10% tip.

Ah well, looks like I was just lazy, apparently, according to some folks.

 

[Falvlun]

I tip people who I am fully aware that is how their pay structure is set up.They WORK for tips.If you want "tips" get a job that you rely on tips for your survival.I was a waitress years ago not for long but I was paid $2.50 an hour + tips. Its a performance based pay structure.I also got paid under minimum wage hourly at another job that was + commission.Shoe sales.Oh and later PC's.

You don't get paid 2 dollars and change an hour, do you? Being a server is far from a salary job...

I don't think anyone who advocates doing away with tipping also thinks we should keep waitresses at $2 an hour.

So yes, in the current system, we are morally obligated to tip, otherwise you are essentially stealing someone's labor. But no, tipping is not inherently "what decent people do" nor is it something you must do if you expect to be provided a service, as Dallas indicated. It is simply the way our culture has decided to pay people in specific industries-- a method which could be changed.

 

[HonestJoe]

You are a rare breed indeed my friend. Most people are terrible tippers, and talk you up the whole time too. The number of times I've heard "You're an excellent server, this is the best service we've ever had at this restaurant" followed by a 10% tip...

15% should be the aim.For even average service.I also take into account not EVERYTHING is the servers fault if something goes wrong. Or that they may have messed up because they are short staffed etc..The wait staff is at the mercy of the chef's/cooks/the management and things unforseen.

You both seem to have recognised some of the many flaws with the system you're supporting. Why do you support wait staff getting screwed out of their rightful wages because of selfish customers or incompetent kitchen staff (that they'll sometimes be forced to share their tips with)?

Why wouldn't it be better if the 10%-15% you expect them to receive by default was part of their standard wage (and standard cost to customers)? Anything above and beyond that basic service could still earn an actual tip but that would be a bonus, not an expectation (and thus a more pleasant experience).

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You both seem to have recognised some of the many flaws with the system you're supporting. Why do you support wait staff getting screwed out of their rightful wages because of selfish customers or incompetent kitchen staff (that they'll sometimes be forced to share their tips with)?

Why wouldn't it be better if the 10%-15% you expect them to receive by default was part of their standard wage (and standard cost to customers)? Anything above and beyond that basic service could still earn an actual tip but that would be a bonus, not an expectation (and thus a more pleasant experience).

1)We'd get a lot less customers if food costs went up so that we could make a higher wage (even if that higher wage was the federal minimum), so there would be less tips, less shifts, and less money overall.
2)I would never wait tables for minimum wage. It would be too much work for too little reward. Again, I make more than a police officer does in my city by waiting tables. Even the terrible tips add up to making more money than I would in retail or other jobs that pay near minimum wage. The increased wage would have to be pretty high, which would in turn discourage customers from eating at the establishment (see #1)

Where I work, we don't tip out the kitchen staff; only the bartenders, bussers, and food runners (all of whom deserve a tip-out). The kitchen staff makes a decent hourly wage and doesn't deal with half of the problems the front-of-house staff does.