• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should we fear Islam?

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Regarding my comment "Appeasment and lack of action is what allowed the nazis to sieze power." any your response...

There is so much wrong with that statement I don't even have time or the care to educate you on that subject.

Let me provide you with a little "education" on the subject. If you look-up "appeasment" in Wikipedia (Chamberlian's policy of appeasing Hitler's demands to avoid war), it says...

"Historians have subsequently explained Chamberlain's policies in various ways. It could be said that he believed sincerely that the objectives of Hitler and Mussolini were limited and that the settlement of their grievances would protect the world from war; for safety, military and air power should be strengthened. Many have judged this belief to be fallacious, since the dictators' demands were not limited and appeasement gave them time to gain greater strength."

Hitler also used the Jews as scape goats upon which to blame all of Germany's problems. Sound familiar?
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Regarding my comment "Appeasment and lack of action is what allowed the nazis to sieze power." any your response...



Let me provide you with a little "education" on the subject. If you look-up "appeasment" in Wikipedia (Chamberlian's policy of appeasing Hitler's demands to avoid war), it says...

"Historians have subsequently explained Chamberlain's policies in various ways. It could be said that he believed sincerely that the objectives of Hitler and Mussolini were limited and that the settlement of their grievances would protect the world from war; for safety, military and air power should be strengthened. Many have judged this belief to be fallacious, since the dictators' demands were not limited and appeasement gave them time to gain greater strength."

Hitler also used the Jews as scape goats upon which to blame all of Germany's problems. Sound familiar?

So, you must be relating Hitler to the US and and the Jews to muslims. I don't think that's a good analogy.
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
So, you must be relating Hitler to the US and and the Jews to muslims. I don't think that's a good analogy.

United States, a rather poor and backwards nation during this time looked up to Germany and Adolf Hitler, it was only when the War begun/finished(?) that this officially went away (other then more higher clergy in the U.S government), you shouldn't use the Indiana Jones movies as your History, if they where true (following history), Indiana Jones would be looking up to the Germans and working together with them with pride, not calling them "nazi scum" and "fight them".

Alot of our American History is forgotten or skewed, worth noting.

Regarding Jews to Muslim comment I didn't understand/see, but what do I know.
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Storm and Gabethewiking,

Don't be confused, Ba'al has adopted Fatihah technique of intentionally warping comments to confuse and distract others.
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
Well, to answer the thread topic: Should we fear Islam?

No, we should fear Muslims (as well as Christians and other religious people wanting to harm or control other people).
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Well, to answer the thread topic: Should we fear Islam?

No, we should fear Muslims (as well as Christians and other religious people wanting to harm or control other people).

And I think Muslims might be too broad a term too... IMO the threat is from puritan/extremist Muslims.

But what's worrying about moderate muslims is how aggressively they speak out against any critisizm of Islam, and deny that purtians/extremists are a threat... or even exist.
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
And I think Muslims might be too broad a term too... IMO the threat is from puritan/extremist Muslims.

But what's worrying about moderate muslims is how aggressively they speak out against any critisizm of Islam, and deny that purtians/extremists are a threat... or even exist.

No, I hold the same opinion Richard Dawkins have, they became extremist, so the ordinary "nice muslim" has the same basis most other muslims have, whatever they are extreme or not.

JUST AS CHRISTIANS, look at the homophobic haters, or the ones bombing abortion clinics and so on.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
And I think Muslims might be too broad a term too... IMO the threat is from puritan/extremist Muslims.

But what's worrying about moderate muslims is how aggressively they speak out against any critisizm of Islam, and deny that purtians/extremists are a threat... or even exist.

Having just finished reading through this thread I have to say I agree 100% with this.

Some Muslims are peaceful, some are violent. I know plenty of Muslims who interpret their scriptures in a benevolent way and preach peace and tolerance. I don't think many people have a problem with these Muslims at all.
Other Muslims however, interpret their scriptures in a destructive way. There ARE Muslims who have committed terrible things due to their interpretation of Islam. In this way, Islam has indeed inspired people to do terrible things. Now I could understand entirely if peaceful Muslims were to say that this is due to a warped perception of Islam, I wouldn't consider that to be unreasonable at all. If it is due a warped perception though, it's far more useful to explain why it is warped than to simply get riled about attacks on Islam.
The fiery comments and in some cases blatant denial of fact does far more harm than good to other people's perception of Islam. Rightly or wrongly, Muslims are being looked on with suspicion in the western world and this is a situation that requires the application of calm reason rather than passionate protesting.
 

olanik

Member
you dont have to fear islam!!just extrime muslim terorists,islam is too wide concept!!!muslims are not evil as west present them!!i am sure about that!!
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Regarding my comment "Appeasment and lack of action is what allowed the nazis to sieze power." any your response...



Let me provide you with a little "education" on the subject. If you look-up "appeasment" in Wikipedia (Chamberlian's policy of appeasing Hitler's demands to avoid war), it says...

"Historians have subsequently explained Chamberlain's policies in various ways. It could be said that he believed sincerely that the objectives of Hitler and Mussolini were limited and that the settlement of their grievances would protect the world from war; for safety, military and air power should be strengthened. Many have judged this belief to be fallacious, since the dictators' demands were not limited and appeasement gave them time to gain greater strength."

Hitler also used the Jews as scape goats upon which to blame all of Germany's problems. Sound familiar?

So your relating Nazi Germany to muslims and that we shouldn't appease to them. :facepalm:
 

Snowber

Active Member
Cruelty in the Quran
  1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6


  1. This verse, 2:6:
    [2:6] As for those who disbelieve, it is the same for them; whether you warn them, or not warn them, they cannot believe.*

    Must be read in context. Those who truly disbelieve will not believe no matter what you show them, I don't see anything offensive here. Have you studied the Koran before quoting all this, or was it just a google search to support your opinions?

    [*]Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

    Man this is gonna be a long night.. Read about 4 verses before that and you'll realize this verse refers to hypocrites:

    [2:8] Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers.

    [2:9] In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.

    [2:10] In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.


    [*]A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

    Descriptions of both Heaven and Hell are always allegorical in the Koran, thus Heaven is being closer to GOD (different degrees of Heaven) while Hell is not having developed your soul and being further from GOD (different degrees of Hell). If you want to believe this is literal without reading "around the verse" and truly understanding the Koran then it will only show the ignorance of the person making claims without understanding what they are claiming.

    [*]Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

    Again, see above.

    [*]"Guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped."
    There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

    [2:48] Beware of the day when no soul can avail another soul, no intercession will be accepted, no ransom can be paid, nor can anyone be helped.

    I don't see anything to argue here, it's a warning for humans to prepare themselves before it's too late.

    [*]Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

    [2:50] Recall that we parted the sea for you; we saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people before your eyes.

    GOD also tells us this is the same army that slaughtered the sons of Israelites at the time:

    [2:49] Recall that we saved you from Pharaoh's people who inflicted upon you the worst persecution, slaying your sons and sparing your daughters. That was an exacting test from your Lord.

    I'd say it was a well deserved punishment.

    [*]"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81

    Again see the comment about Heaven and Hell having allegorical descriptions.

    [*]If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

    [2:85] Yet, here you are killing each other, and evicting some of you from their homes, banding against them sinfully and maliciously. Even when they surrendered, you demanded ransom from them. Evicting them was prohibited for you in the first place. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this, except humiliation in this life, and a far worse retribution on the Day of Resurrection? GOD is never unaware of anything you do.

    The writer has taken the verse out of context and injected their own opinions. Cheers to those who defame a religion under the guise of being against ignorance :)

    [*]Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

    Read verses AROUND the verse and you'll have a much better understanding of specifically who this refers too. Again the opinion of an ignorant author + a supposed reason to defame = more ignorance.

    [*]For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

    Again you must realize that GOD gives examples of "different disbelievers", that's why the context is so important. Please read the verse, read the verses around it, then come with your argument.

    There was more but it's just more verses about "disbelievers" being punished and I've already answered claims about these verses above. I'd like to move on please.

    1. "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)."</I> There is no doubt about this or any other "Scripture". It is false. It wasn't revealed by God and it won't "ward off evil." 2:2

      "This Scripture is infallible, a beacon for the righteous"

      In fact, those who believe in the Koran as it was meant to be believed will find that it does "ward off evil".

      [*]"Shall we believe as the foolish believe?"
      According to the Quran, the answer is, yes. To be truly wise you must believe whatever the foolish believe. 2:13

      Not true, in fact GOD encourages to verify what hear, there is no special mention for the Koran being exempt of this:

      [17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
 

Snowber

Active Member
[*]"If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things." 2:20

[2:20] The lightning almost snatches away their eyesight. When it lights for them, they move forward, and when it turns dark, they stand still. If GOD wills, He* can take away their hearing and their eyesight. GOD is Omnipotent.

Another allegorical verse. Even besides, what is so debatable here, that GOD can take away their hearing and eyesight?


[*]And He taught Adam all the names."
Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

For all we know GOD the communication that took place here could've been done in an instant mentally if GOD willed, no argument here.

[*]"And if ye are in doubt ... then produce a surah of the like thereof."
If you doubt that the truth of the Quran, then try making some stuff up and see how it compares. (Whatever you come up with will be better than the Quran.) 2:23

In fact, the Koran has retained its literary value while still maintaining an awesome miracle, and this was all done 1400 years ago, I'd say it's pretty hard to imitate.

[*]Allah commands the angels to worship Adam. They all do, except for Iblis, who becomes a disbeliever. 2:34

[2:34] When we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever.

Again, a misinterpretation of a verse. In fact to prostrate before Adam in this instance (not necessarily a physical prostration, mind you) was an example of their devotion to GOD.

[*]Allah struck Moses with lightening and then revived him just so that Moses would thank him for it! 2:55-56

[2:55] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we will not believe unless we see GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck you, as you looked.

These are the people who are TELLING MOSES they wont believe unless they see GOD physically, not Moses. In all translations this is apparent, another example of the writer's bias.

[*]Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews at the time of Moses because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. But what prophets could they have killed and what revelations could they have rejected? Most of the prophets and revelations came later, didn't they? 2:61

Prophets have been delivered to communities way before the time of Moses, I don't understand why this assumption is made?

[2:61] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

[*]Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Allegorical, they were "despicable as apes".

[2:65] You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you as despicable as apes."

[*]"Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is."
A load of silly bull **** about a yellow cow. 2:67-71

Opinions here that you don't like the verse? In fact, if you look at the context of this verse you'll learn that the Moses's people were commanded to sacrifice a cow and instead they asked a bunch of questions about what kind of cow, so on and so forth when all they were commanded to do was sacrifice a cow. They made life harder on themselves "after a lengthy reluctance, they finally sacrified the cow"


[*]To settle a murder mystery, Allah brought a murder victim back to life by hitting his dead body with a piece of the yellow cow. The risen man then identified his murderer! 2:72-3

You don't like this so I guess it's not true?

[*]Allah makes a man "die" for 100 years, and then brings him back to life. 2:259
[*]To show how he gives life to the dead, Allah tells Abraham to cut up the bodies of four birds, scatter their remains on four hills, and then call to them. Allah says that the dead birds will come quickly to Abraham. 2:260
[/LIST]

Again, because someone doesn't like something doesn't remove it's validity.

  1. Quran and women's rights:
    1. It's OK to have sex with your wives on the night of the fast.


    1. Before this law was in place it was NOT ok to sleep with your wives during the month of Ramadan, and now it is ok. Is there a problem here?

      [*]Menstruation is a sickness. Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222

      The verse says that sex during menstruation is considered to be harmful. This does not degrade women.

      [*]Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223

      [2:223] Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers.

      Isn't it funny that the verse ends with "SO LONG AS YOU MAINTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS"? Of course, it wouldn't be righteous to have sex with your wife when she doesn't want to have sex. Silly.

      [*]Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228

      [2:228] The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.



      This is in the case of pregnancy and DOES NOT make women any less than men. GOD clearly points out that women are equal to men.

      [3:195] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are EQUAL TO ONE another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.

      [4:25] Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are EQUAL TO ONE another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


      [*]A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282


*2:282 Financial transactions are the ONLY situations where two women may substitute for one man as witness. This is to guard against the real possibility that one witness may marry the other witness, and thus cause her to be biased. It is a recognized fact that women are more emotionally vulnerable than men.
 

Snowber

Active Member
Are the Quran and the Bible inspired by the same loving God?


The Bible says:
  1. God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs. This was necessary since Adam couldn't find a "help meet" in any of the animals that God made for him. 2:20-22
  2. Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. 3:12-13
  3. "In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. ... Thy husband ... shall rule over thee."
    God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. 3:16
  4. Adam is also punished, although less severely. He now will have to work for a living because he "hearkened unto the voice" of his wife. 3:17
  5. Lamech is the first of a long line of biblical men with more than one wife. It seems that God approves of such marriages. 4:19, 23
  6. Finally, sometime in the next 800 years, Adam begat some daughters. These nameless ones are the first (and nearly the last) girls to be born in the Bible. 5:4
  7. "The male and his female ..." Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men. 7:2

You've included the Koran in the question above but all these verses are from the Bible? Sorry if I missed something here.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
why is the title of the thread about fearing islam? there is one islam. the islam revealed by Allah (swt) to Muhammed (saws) through Gabriel (as).

a muslim on the other hand is someone who has submitted himself to that islam (the one above) anyone who does not follow that is not a muslim. there are no such people as extremist muslims. they are either extremist people or they are muslim people. this is nonsense.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
why is the title of the thread about fearing islam? there is one islam. the islam revealed by Allah (swt) to Muhammed (saws) through Gabriel (as).

a muslim on the other hand is someone who has submitted himself to that islam (the one above) anyone who does not follow that is not a muslim. there are no such people as extremist muslims. they are either extremist people or they are muslim people. this is nonsense.

The point some people have been making (myself included) is that there are people who interpret the Koran in a peaceful manner and others who interpret it in a violent manner. Both groups tend to accuse the other of not being true Muslims, but from a Western point of view it's impossible to tell which side truly represents Islam.
Now I would consider it perfectly acceptable if you were to say that the people carrying out violent acts in the name of Allah have a warped perception of Islam, but I would also ask for something to back this up.
I haven't read the Koran, but I would be interested in learning how some people can interpret Islam as encouraging violence. What are your views on this? Are the people responsible for murders in the name of Allah real Muslims? Why/why not? What is there in the Koran that could encourage violence?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
The point some people have been making (myself included) is that there are people who interpret the Koran in a peaceful manner and others who interpret it in a violent manner. Both groups tend to accuse the other of not being true Muslims, but from a Western point of view it's impossible to tell which side truly represents Islam.
Now I would consider it perfectly acceptable if you were to say that the people carrying out violent acts in the name of Allah have a warped perception of Islam, but I would also ask for something to back this up.
I haven't read the Koran, but I would be interested in learning how some people can interpret Islam as encouraging violence. What are your views on this? Are the people responsible for murders in the name of Allah real Muslims? Why/why not? What is there in the Koran that could encourage violence?


thats the point, Shyanekh. there is nothing in te quran that would encourage violence. if there was then why the hell am i not violent?
i don't understand the statement of how someone could missinterpret islam. there is nothing to missinterpret.

i will open a thread in the islam forum and will send you a link to see which side is the right one. those that kill anyone who crosess their path or those that forgive anyone who crosess their path. you can judge for yourself.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
thats the point, Shyanekh. there is nothing in te quran that would encourage violence. if there was then why the hell am i not violent?
i don't understand the statement of how someone could missinterpret islam. there is nothing to missinterpret.

i will open a thread in the islam forum and will send you a link to see which side is the right one. those that kill anyone who crosess their path or those that forgive anyone who crosess their path. you can judge for yourself.

That would be helpful.
Do you have any theories on why people go so horribly wrong? Is it a cultural/economic thing? Do the people doing these things not have access to a Koran and listen to lies?
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Correct... I am not a muslim. What I know about the Taliban is they claim they are muslims. I assume you claim to be a muslim. You claim to know about Islam, yet you don't answer the simple yes or no question... do you think the Taliban are muslims too?

I'm not expecting an answer from you... just more word games. But if you had any sense about you, you'd realize how damaging your word games are to the perception of Islam by non-muslims.

Instead of acknowledging that the muslim faith has conflicts within it, and explaining the BIG difference between peaceful, moderates and violent, puritians, you prefer to play word games.

I'm assuming you think I'm trying to paint Islam with a negative brush. I'm not, but even if I was, your doing a much better job of that than I could even dream of.

Response: To the contrary, with such conversations like this one, it is your own words that help to demonstrate the fact that islam is a religion of peace, and it's people like yourself who try desperately to portray otherwise, but fail miserably.
 
Top