Signs of The End: A Baha'i View

[Lady B]

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

(1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ESV)
here is the entire context, It is sure saying Adam was the first natural man.

The evidence is not in the scripture. It is in the fossil record

then why give scripture to support your claim?

 

[savagewind]

hen why give scripture to support your claim?

I have no idea.

 

[Lady B]

I have no idea.

lol good answer

 

[savagewind]

lol good answer

Hey! What's so funny about me being stuopiod? Sometimes I let my fat fingers have their say. Not often, but sometimes.

 

[Lady B]

Hey! What's so funny about me being stuopiod? Sometimes I let my fat fingers have their say. Not often, but sometimes.

No No, your not stupid, I just like when people admit they have no point really.... instead of dragging it out to an endless debate of nothing! I do not laugh at you, I laugh and take joy in your humbleness as I hope you will mine one day when I run out of apoligies

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Even If Buddha started out believing in God, your God, why then would a prophet of God teach a totally heretical view of God? This is completely baffling to me how your religion unifies religions that do not fit with your God, My God any God.

In Baha'i View all are from the same God.
I don't see how they are not.

Before Adam? So Bahai doesn't even believe the creation scriptures? Adam was the first man. Why was there a need for prophets before Adam? Did they prophesy to God? The angels? You don't see the problem here?

As Savagewind pointed out, the Adam is a symbolic story.
Baha'i Scriptures, explaines that there are various cycles in the History of Human's developement.
One of those Cycles was the Adamic Cycle, or Prophetic Cycle, starting from Adam and lasted about 6000 years, until the end of dispensation of the revelation of Muhammad the Seal of Prophets.

Thus Baha'u'ullah revealed: “The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come.”


In the Bible Scriptures, it is describing the Cycle that started with Adam.
However, there is also a symbolic Figure in the Bible, and Baha'i Scriptures explains various interpretations of that. In the Book, "some answered Questions", they asked Abdulbaha:

Question.—What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?

Abdulbaha explained:​

"In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: “Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die.”† Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: “God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil.”‡ Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: “Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree?” Adam answered: “Eve tempted Me, and I did eat.” God then reproved Eve; Eve said: “The serpent tempted me, and I did eat.” For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: “The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever.” So God guarded the tree of life.§ ​

If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity—that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.

We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.
We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary* was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. ​

Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126​

*Bahá’u’lláh

Your Bias opinion.
Just because you constantly interpret scripture figuratively or symbolically to fit your claims, doesn't make it so.

Not so. For at least Three Biblical reason, there are many Symbolic Verses in Bible:

Firstly Many of the Passages of Bible, are the visions and dreams that the Prophets had. According to Bible and Bible scholars, the visions and dreams have symbolic interpretations.
I would demand you to refer to the story of the Joseph in Bible, when He saw a dream that He saw 11 stars, the Moon and the Sun bow to Him.
Please tell me if that was literal or had a specific interpretations and what was it?

Secondly, Jesus Himself talked in Parabols with Figurative meaninngs. Refer to Bible please, and investigate for yourself.
For example in the Chapter of Matthew:


13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given....13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Thirdly, the Book has reminded that it is sealed, and even the learned cannot understand, once in chapter of Danial, then in Isaiah and finally in the Revelation of John. Please refer Bible to find those.​

 

[Lady B]

In Baha'i View all are from the same God.
I don't see how they are not.

You not seeing doesn't make it true. sure we all would like to believe we all have One God we confuse the details,and prophesies and add here and there..it's ok we will all get to heaven anyway so what's the problem? The problem is God gave us the way the truth and the light and when one tries to change his word to fit his own view of God, he then creates his own God and loses out on the real and true God. you are free to do this, we are all free, But trying to unify all these contradictive religions with one God one way and change or dismiss scriptures that opose you in the process is absurd and useless. I respect you have your Bahai writings and you have your own faith what I don't respect is your inclusion of faiths that opose your own.Islam,Chritianity and Buddhism do not agree with your prophet at all, so why bring us all in and say we all have same God? we do not and we do not wish to be a follower of Bahai'ism or be have our scriptures twisted so that we seem inclusive.

As Savagewind pointed out, the Adam is a symbolic story.

Baha'i Scriptures, explaines that there are various cycles in the History of Human's developement.
One of those Cycles was the Adamic Cycle, or Prophetic Cycle, starting from Adam and lasted about 6000 years, until the end of dispensation of the revelation of Muhammad the Seal of Prophets
.Thus Baha'u'ullah revealed: “The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come.”
In the Bible Scriptures, it is describing the Cycle that started with Adam.

where are you getting this? surely not Bible scripture, and even in your statement you suggest adamic cycle as the first cycle, what was the cycle before adam? who did they prophesy to? your claim was adam was not the first man and there were prophets before him. see challenge below to answer

Firstly Many of the Passages of Bible, are the visions and dreams that the Prophets had. According to Bible and Bible scholars, the visions and dreams have symbolic interpretations.

I would demand you to refer to the story of the Joseph in Bible, when He saw a dream that He saw 11 stars, the Moon and the Sun bow to Him.
Please tell me if that was literal or had a specific interpretations and what was it?

The Dream was symbolic but the symbols had clear meanings and were interpreted for us in scripture thereafter, no mystery.

Secondly, Jesus Himself talked in Parabols with Figurative meaninngs. Refer to Bible please, and investigate for yourself.

For example in the Chapter of Matthew:


13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given....13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

exactly!! deciples understood his parables and believe it or not Christians understand them also and do not need another prophet to explain them to us

Thirdly, the Book has reminded that it is sealed, and even the learned cannot understand, once in chapter of Danial, then in Isaiah and finally in the Revelation of John. Please refer Bible to find those.

​

What is figurative is figurative, what is symbolic is symbolic, what is literal is literal. You see all is the first 2 and none really of the later, we who study God's word can understand the difference.granted much in God's word was symbolic, but not near the amount you use symbolicly. The death burial and resurrection of Christ is literal creation was literal, fall of man was literal,Adam was indeed the first literal man created by God on the 6th day.these are major doctrines of the Christian faith and we must let Bahula interpret them ? Because you don't see that doesn't make it so. You used savagewind as a support? He even said He didn't know why he used scripture to make his claim or verify yours, God bless him,and in turn he used science, which I do not care of at all when it contradicts the bible.The bible is not declaring itself not understandable, " God is not the author of confusion".

challenge......
If you want to prove to me or fellow Christians and The jewish religion that Adam was not the first man,and that there were prophets before him ,per your claim, then here is your challenge. Only use Bible scriptures and do not twist them to your own view, acknowledge that This is God's word and respect it. Do not use symbolism when it is a literal verse. Do not use Bahai writings because we both do not agree in their authenticity , do not use science because I do not trust science above a God who created the world. Do not use Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam, this is not a mutual faith between us. Remember it is your claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

[savagewind]

Am I manly? LOL.

I used scripture that you have understood to mean man was the literal first man. OK! I was intercepting you. That is all and I did not want to argue so I didn't. It's a good thing no frubal.*

I have no idea why it is a good thing to argue with people who believe in magic. For if the dust came together to form the first man who God knew as Adam, that's magic. It is not a good idea to reject evolution as there is truth to it. And by doing so you might turn people off their course of discovering The Father. Who wants to listen to a person who shuts their mind off about real evidence? The evidence is clear. There was no first perfect man.

* What I mean is you did not give me one. I noticed. It's OK

 

[Lady B]

Am I manly? LOL.

I used scripture that you have understood to mean man was the literal first man. OK! I was intercepting you. That is all and I did not want to argue so I didn't. It's a good thing no frubal.*

I have no idea why it is a good thing to argue with people who believe in magic. For if the dust came together to form the first man who God knew as Adam, that's magic. It is not a good idea to reject evolution as there is truth to it. And by doing so you might turn people off their course of discovering The Father. Who wants to listen to a person who shuts their mind off about real evidence? The evidence is clear. There was no first perfect man.

* What I mean is you did not give me one. I noticed. It's OK

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings I did not mean to at all, however let us reason together shall we? the OP is using scripture not science to claim there was prophets on the earth before Adam. I questioned this and you came in with a verse from scripture to refute me, that didn't work out so well so you gave science as your reasoning. Ok I am not telling anyone to not use science, I am hoping the OP has some scriptural support for her claim that is all. I even said God bless him, when using your name in my rebutal,because I see no reason she should use you as support for her views when science was not her claim to begin with. that is all and I am sorry If I overstepped my bounds.:sorry1:

 

[savagewind]

Well, there you go again! You assume you hurt my feelings? But my feelings are not hurt. Quite the contrary.

He might be wrong to insist we believe there were prophets longer than the ones we have heard about.

God is always present. God was present before anyone called Adam chose the way he chose. LOGIC says there were prophets before the first sin against God happened.

I did not use the scripture to refute you. I used the scripture to read your mind. OK?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you want to prove to me or fellow Christians and The jewish religion that Adam was not the first man,and that there were prophets before him ,per your claim, then here is your challenge. Only use Bible scriptures and do not twist them to your own view, acknowledge that This is God's word and respect it. Do not use symbolism when it is a literal verse. Do not use Bahai writings because we both do not agree in their authenticity , do not use science because I do not trust science above a God who created the world. Do not use Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam, this is not a mutual faith between us. Remember it is your claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

Those who wrote Bible, did not say, they are writing literal words. Neither they said do not use science. Neither they said other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and the future religions are not from God. Neither they said there was not another prophet before Adam.
Unless you want to show me this is what they said?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Those who wrote Bible, did not say, they are writing literal words. Neither they said do not use science. Neither they said other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and the future religions are not from God. Neither they said there was not another prophet before Adam.
Unless you want to show me this is what they said?

Depending on who you ask:

-Paul did say something to the effect of understanding the Bible literally
-Paul was very much against science and philosophy
-Almost all New Testament writers were adamant that Christianity was the only true religion, and that all others were false
-Paul called Adam, the first man, so it would seem illogical to think that he believed in other prophets before Adam

 

[Lady B]

Depending on who you ask:

-Paul did say something to the effect of understanding the Bible literally
-Paul was very much against science and philosophy
-Almost all New Testament writers were adamant that Christianity was the only true religion, and that all others were false
-Paul called Adam, the first man, so it would seem illogical to think that he believed in other prophets before Adam

Dear Dyana
you misquoted me ,I surely do not have this view.....
That is not my post, This is Investigate truths words, I quite agree with you!!

 

[Lady B]

Well, there you go again! You assume you hurt my feelings? But my feelings are not hurt. Quite the contrary.

He might be wrong to insist we believe there were prophets longer than the ones we have heard about.

God is always present. God was present before anyone called Adam chose the way he chose. LOGIC says there were prophets before the first sin against God happened.

I did not use the scripture to refute you. I used the scripture to read your mind. OK?

fair enough

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Dear Dyana
you misquoted me ,I surely do not have this view.....
That is not my post, This is Investigate truths words, I quite agree with you!!

I think there was a typo on his post, when he quoted you, and then when I quoted him, it carried over.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

LadyB and Dyana, can you please correct your quotes to reflect the correct username.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Depending on who you ask:

-Paul did say something to the effect of understanding the Bible literally
-Paul was very much against science and philosophy
-Almost all New Testament writers were adamant that Christianity was the only true religion, and that all others were false
-Paul called Adam, the first man, so it would seem illogical to think that he believed in other prophets before Adam

I am not aware of that. If you want please give a few quotes from Paul as you say.

But, here are some verses:

"Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60


“His eyes were as a flame of fire”, and “brass-like were His feet”, and “out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword” Revelation 19:12-15

How could these words be literally interpreted?​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

(1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ESV)
here is the entire context, It is sure saying Adam was the first natural man.

It is clear from the verse you quoted, Christ is refered as the last Adam. But He was not really the last person on earth. Likewise, the First Adam is not meant that He was the first person.
In my view verses are not to be taken literally.

I quote from Baha'i Scriptures:

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." What is the meaning of these words? ​

"Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection. ​

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive," means, according to this terminology, that Adam* is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 118-121

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....it's ok we will all get to heaven anyway so what's the problem? The problem is God gave us the way the truth and the light and when one tries to change his word to fit his own view of God, he then creates his own God and loses out on the real and true God.

Well, in my view, the Baha'i Scriptures is saying exactly what the Bible says, but as some Christian Religious Leaders literal interpreted, and selectively chose some parts of the Bible, while tend to deny other parts, they changed Bible's meaning from its original.
Just the truth as I see it, but we can always discuss the details.

I respect you have your Bahai writings and you have your own faith what I don't respect is your inclusion of faiths that opose your own.Islam,Chritianity and Buddhism do not agree with your prophet at all, so why bring us all in and say we all have same God? we do not and we do not wish to be a follower of Bahai'ism or be have our scriptures twisted so that we seem inclusive.

But, you seem to be talking on behalf of every people. The Baha'is come from different religious bachgrounds, including Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Jewism, Zoroastrism and Buddhism. Clearly says, it has been understood to be the Truth by many, considering it has been only 160 years past from the beginning of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

According to the Hindu scriptures that deal with the end of the creation cycle, we still have millions of years left before the end.

Ok, but also according to Hindu Scriptures, these words are reccorded:

"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." (BG 4.7)

"To deliver the faithful, to annihilate the miscreants and also to reestablish the principles of occupational duty, I appear in every age." (BG 4.8)

So in one sense, the end of an Age, can be seen as an end in religious practice. Seeing in that way, then in every Age, He would appear.

The Baha'i Scriptures also talk about Universal Cycles. The One we are in, according Baha'i Scriptures, is the Cycle of fulfillment.
So, perhaps the one you are talking about in millions of years is related to future Cycles.