Lady B
noob
so your proof is now what the Bible does not say literally?
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Signs of The End: A Baha'i View
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Well, you had put a condition, that I should not use symbolism, or Science or other Faiths:
Originally Posted by Lady B
If you want to prove to me or fellow Christians and The jewish religion that Adam was not the first man,and that there were prophets before him ,per your claim, then here is your challenge. Only use Bible scriptures and do not twist them to your own view, acknowledge that This is God's word and respect it. Do not use symbolism when it is a literal verse. Do not use Bahai writings because we both do not agree in their authenticity , do not use science because I do not trust science above a God who created the world. Do not use Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam, this is not a mutual faith between us. Remember it is your claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
To that I replied:
So, I am saying the conditions that you are putting, is a pre-supposition. In my view this pre-supposition is not in the original teachings of Jesus, as can be seen from the Bible. Then how is it that you want me to prove something to you, based on a pre-assumption that in my view, is not part of the original teachings of Bible?
Moreover, there has been knowledgeable Religious Scholars, who became Baha'is eventually. among them was:
Thomas Kelly Cheyne (1841 – 1915) was an English Christian Divine and Biblical Scholar:
- he studied German theological methods
- held a fellowship at Balliol College, Oxford
- he stood alone in the university as a teacher of the main conclusions of Old Testament
- he was made a member of the Old Testament revision company
- he was appointed to be Oriel Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture
- he was a joint editor of the Encyclopaedia Biblica
- his publications include translations, commentaries, and supplemental research.
Now, eventually, after all these achievements, He finally became a Baha'i.
Clearly, shows, someone who has done an excellent research, and was very knowledgeable, found the Baha'i Theology above what He had learned all his life.
Thomas Kelly Cheyne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and Among Muslim Scholars, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl:
- His family were prominent religious scholars
- his father, was a Muslim religious leader
- he studied Islamic sciences at one of the religious colleges
- he became a Muslim prayer leader
- He became teacher of speculative theology, at one of the religious colleges
- He continued learning about philosophy and mystical philosophy
- he was selected to be the head of the religious college
Now after all these he met an uneducated cloth-seller who was a Baha'i. Then He with all these knowledge, became a Baha'i.
Mírzá Abu'l-Fadl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Lady B
noob
Dear Investigate truth:
I did challenge you to prove to myself and other true Bible believers, using the criteria I listed. How can you possibly prove anything to me by using devices I do not agree with? You have made the claims...
1 Adam was not the first man.
2 there were prophets prior to Adam.
In proving this to me, you use that the Bible does not say Adam was the first man. I have shown you with scripture that it does,though not as thoroughly as I could have, given more time.
In proving prior prophets, you say only that the Bible does not say that there wasn't.? This is proof?
I asked you to show me using my scriptures, not yours, obviously because we both do not agree in the authenticity of one, therefore only one can be used as evidence here in this discussion between us two. This is completely rational and not presupposing anything. Don't forget That it is the bahai faith and followers that include The Bible and not the bible and followers that includes the Bahai faith. In other words if you ask any Christian do you believe in Bahuallah, they will say no, If you ask Bahai's if they believe in the god of the bible and or Jesus they will say yes. It is not reciprocated.therfore I see no problem in asking you to prove your claims using my scriptures in which we both accept as the word of God. At any rate I withdraw my challenge, because we cannot agree on the perimeters.
Here is what I see happening in all our discussions thus far. You see most Bible scripture as symbolic and figurative, not clear and literal.I see The bible has a vast message with both symbolic and very literal sayings. The things that are figurative you use to oppose the things that are literal,by suggesting that noone really can interpret them but God, or Bahai's spiritualy informed prophet. you simply dismiss and/or say we The Christians misinterpret our own scriptures. I am not accusing you of knowingly MIS-using scripture, I believe your heart is in the right place and you honestly believe what you are projecting. But seriously you have not proven anything to me thus far that could get me to agree and accept any statements you have made about Jesus, Bahulala, Mohammad, Adam, sinlessness of prophets ,end times ect..
In all due respect you disregard very important doctrines of Christianity, One is the resurrection of Christ in the body. This is not spiritual, symbolic or figurative, when he came to Thomas and to his disciples on the road to amayas, He showed his hands and asked them to examine him, "put your finger in my wounds, feel my side, it is I ,believe!" how do you interpret this?
You can bring any heretical sect or cult of Christianity in and say " look they didn't believe that" I will tell you and history will tell you that through out all ages of catholic, orthodox and protestant Christianity, all hold to this important doctrine, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. litterally.We Hold to the Oneness Of God in 3 persons, father ,son and Holy spirit, any one who does not is not a Biblical Christian. We can differ on many things but not these very important doctrines of our faith as stated in the apostles creed.
The basic creed of Reformed churches, as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
also He did not say he would come again under disguise and no one will know,Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."
How did Bahuallah come and go and no follower of the risen Christ knew him?
Matthew 24:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many.
I will close and we will agree to disagree, I cannot possibly rationally accept your way and you cannot rationally come to mine. It is a beautiful Idea what Bahai proposes in uniting all religions into one, but we cannot accept the contradictions between us as you can.You say we have no contradictions,Christianity as a whole disagrees.You say you have no contradictions with Islam,Islam disagrees. You say you have no contradictions with Buddhism and zoastrism, they both disagree with your faith and mine and eachothers.
Truly I wish all the world were one religion, and that this religion was the true and only way to salvation, However God gave us his way, not our way, His plan, not ours, and He demands his will be done and In the end It will indeed May God have mercy on us all.
I admire you patience very much and you have been nothing but courteous and respectful to me and others, I thank you and look forward to future discussions with you.
I did challenge you to prove to myself and other true Bible believers, using the criteria I listed. How can you possibly prove anything to me by using devices I do not agree with? You have made the claims...
1 Adam was not the first man.
2 there were prophets prior to Adam.
In proving this to me, you use that the Bible does not say Adam was the first man. I have shown you with scripture that it does,though not as thoroughly as I could have, given more time.
In proving prior prophets, you say only that the Bible does not say that there wasn't.? This is proof?
I asked you to show me using my scriptures, not yours, obviously because we both do not agree in the authenticity of one, therefore only one can be used as evidence here in this discussion between us two. This is completely rational and not presupposing anything. Don't forget That it is the bahai faith and followers that include The Bible and not the bible and followers that includes the Bahai faith. In other words if you ask any Christian do you believe in Bahuallah, they will say no, If you ask Bahai's if they believe in the god of the bible and or Jesus they will say yes. It is not reciprocated.therfore I see no problem in asking you to prove your claims using my scriptures in which we both accept as the word of God. At any rate I withdraw my challenge, because we cannot agree on the perimeters.
Here is what I see happening in all our discussions thus far. You see most Bible scripture as symbolic and figurative, not clear and literal.I see The bible has a vast message with both symbolic and very literal sayings. The things that are figurative you use to oppose the things that are literal,by suggesting that noone really can interpret them but God, or Bahai's spiritualy informed prophet. you simply dismiss and/or say we The Christians misinterpret our own scriptures. I am not accusing you of knowingly MIS-using scripture, I believe your heart is in the right place and you honestly believe what you are projecting. But seriously you have not proven anything to me thus far that could get me to agree and accept any statements you have made about Jesus, Bahulala, Mohammad, Adam, sinlessness of prophets ,end times ect..
In all due respect you disregard very important doctrines of Christianity, One is the resurrection of Christ in the body. This is not spiritual, symbolic or figurative, when he came to Thomas and to his disciples on the road to amayas, He showed his hands and asked them to examine him, "put your finger in my wounds, feel my side, it is I ,believe!" how do you interpret this?
You can bring any heretical sect or cult of Christianity in and say " look they didn't believe that" I will tell you and history will tell you that through out all ages of catholic, orthodox and protestant Christianity, all hold to this important doctrine, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. litterally.We Hold to the Oneness Of God in 3 persons, father ,son and Holy spirit, any one who does not is not a Biblical Christian. We can differ on many things but not these very important doctrines of our faith as stated in the apostles creed.
The basic creed of Reformed churches, as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
also He did not say he would come again under disguise and no one will know,Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."
How did Bahuallah come and go and no follower of the risen Christ knew him?
Matthew 24:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many.
I will close and we will agree to disagree, I cannot possibly rationally accept your way and you cannot rationally come to mine. It is a beautiful Idea what Bahai proposes in uniting all religions into one, but we cannot accept the contradictions between us as you can.You say we have no contradictions,Christianity as a whole disagrees.You say you have no contradictions with Islam,Islam disagrees. You say you have no contradictions with Buddhism and zoastrism, they both disagree with your faith and mine and eachothers.
Truly I wish all the world were one religion, and that this religion was the true and only way to salvation, However God gave us his way, not our way, His plan, not ours, and He demands his will be done and In the end It will indeed May God have mercy on us all.
I admire you patience very much and you have been nothing but courteous and respectful to me and others, I thank you and look forward to future discussions with you.
***Staff Advisory***
This thread has been moved to the Religious Debates forum per Staff consensus.
This thread has been moved to the Religious Debates forum per Staff consensus.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear LadyB:
Well, What I have said is clear.
This is My view:
If we go by the same rule that you are going, how can you expect a Jew believe in Jesus as being the true Messiah?
Suppose you are born in a Jewish family who believes in literal interpretation of Bible according to what the Jewish Scholars told you. How could you then believe Jesus is the Messiah?
It is clear that, the people in every age, interpreted their Book in such a way that, when the Promised one came, they had a different understanding regarding Him. Why do you think the Jews do not believe Jesus has fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah?
The answer is clear. Because they interpreted the Bible literally. According to its appearant meaning.
Moreover, you are saying to prove to you Adam is not the first man.
I already did. Using the same thing the Bible says, but ofcourse a different interpretation than what you are told.
Can you prove to a Jew, or even explain to a Jew, Jesus is the Messiah, WITHOUT using new Testament? Clearly not. This is the condition you are putting.
I am saying, what you believe, is based on understanding of the regular man. While, I believe the prophecies of return of Christ are fulfilled.
Regarding the Name of Baha'u'llah . Baha'u'llah in Arabic means Glory of God. It is in the Bible that says:
"and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2
It was Baha'u'llah who came from East to ISrael.
As the Bible says in the Chapter of Revelation:
"I will write upon him my new name. 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
Well, What I have said is clear.
This is My view:
If we go by the same rule that you are going, how can you expect a Jew believe in Jesus as being the true Messiah?
Suppose you are born in a Jewish family who believes in literal interpretation of Bible according to what the Jewish Scholars told you. How could you then believe Jesus is the Messiah?
It is clear that, the people in every age, interpreted their Book in such a way that, when the Promised one came, they had a different understanding regarding Him. Why do you think the Jews do not believe Jesus has fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah?
The answer is clear. Because they interpreted the Bible literally. According to its appearant meaning.
Moreover, you are saying to prove to you Adam is not the first man.
I already did. Using the same thing the Bible says, but ofcourse a different interpretation than what you are told.
Can you prove to a Jew, or even explain to a Jew, Jesus is the Messiah, WITHOUT using new Testament? Clearly not. This is the condition you are putting.
I am saying, what you believe, is based on understanding of the regular man. While, I believe the prophecies of return of Christ are fulfilled.
Regarding the Name of Baha'u'llah . Baha'u'llah in Arabic means Glory of God. It is in the Bible that says:
"and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2
It was Baha'u'llah who came from East to ISrael.
As the Bible says in the Chapter of Revelation:
"I will write upon him my new name. 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
The verse of Bible says, He comes with a new Name, NOT Jesus.
Regarding the statement in the Bible: "Every Eye Shall see Him"
This is very True. If we think about it, the Bible does not say every person shall see Him. It says every Eye shall see Him.
But My question to you: Does everyone has eye? does not Bible itself calls those who are unable to see the truth, as blinds?
Yes, every eye shall see Him, but not those who do not have eye.
As it was said in the Bible:
'He comes like a thief in the night, therefore watch"
Like a thief, that comes and goes suddenly, and people do not see Him!
As regards to His coming in the "cloud".
That is like the coming of the Sun, which the clouds around it, does not allow people to see the truth.
By this is meant that when He the divine Beauty is manifested from the heaven of the will of God, and appears in the form of the human, people will not be able to recognize him, and have doubts. Just as the cloud around the Sun, does not allow people to see the Sun.
dear LadyB, please do not give up. ask all your questions. I love questions.
Looking forward to chat with you.
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Lady B
noob
Dear LadyB:
Well, What I have said is clear.
This is My view:
If we go by the same rule that you are going, how can you expect a Jew believe in Jesus as being the true Messiah?
Suppose you are born in a Jewish family who believes in literal interpretation of Bible according to what the Jewish Scholarstold you. How could you then believe Jesus is the Messiah?
It is clear that, the people in every age, interpreted their Book in such a way that, when the Promised one came, they had a different understanding regarding Him. Why do you think the Jews do not believe Jesus has fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah?
The answer is clear. Because they interpreted the Bible literally. According to its appearant meaning.
Moreover, you are saying to prove to you Adam is not the first man.
I already did. Using the same thing the Bible says, but ofcourse a different interpretation than what you are told.
Can you prove to a Jew, or even explain to a Jew, Jesus is the Messiah, WITHOUT using new Testament? Clearly not. This is the condition you are putting.
I am saying, what you believe, is based on understanding of the regular man. While, I believe the prophecies of return of Christ are fulfilled.
Regarding the Name of Baha'u'llah . Baha'u'llah in Arabic means Glory of God. It is in the Bible that says:
"and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2
It was Baha'u'llah who came from East to ISrael.
As the Bible says in the Chapter of Revelation:
"I will write upon him my new name. 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
The verse of Bible says, He comes with a new Name, NOT Jesus.
Regarding the statement in the Bible: "Every Eye Shall see Him"
This is very True. If we think about it, the Bible does not say every person shall see Him. It says every Eye shall see Him.
But My question to you: Does everyone has eye? does not Bible itself calls those who are unable to see the truth, as blinds?
Yes, every eye shall see Him, but not those who do not have eye.
As it was said in the Bible:
'He comes like a thief in the night, therefore watch"
Like a thief, that comes and goes suddenly, and people do not see Him!
As regards to His coming in the "cloud".
That is like the coming of the Sun, which the clouds around it, does not allow people to see the truth.
By this is meant that when He the divine Beauty is manifested from the heaven of the will of God, and appears in the form of the human, people will not be able to recognize him, and have doubts. Just as the cloud around the Sun, does not allow people to see the Sun.
dear LadyB, please do not give up. ask all your questions. I love questions.
Looking forward to chat with you.
you truly are a patient being!
did you notice they moved our thread? You think we were doing something wrong?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear LadyB,
The Bible contains both verses that are literal and verses that are symbolic.
But it does not always say which verse is symbolic and which is literal.
Those who wrote the Bible, have written "All Scriptures are inspired by God", therefore only God can know what is literal and what is symbolic.
If you recall, it is written in Bible that the Book is sealed and the scholars (Learned), whould not be able to know everything in it, Untill the time of End, when the Promised one comes to unseal it:
"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isa. 29:11-12
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Danial 12:9-10
"Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? ...Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda..." Revelation 5:2-5
Moreover His Holiness Jesus Christ has said “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."
These were things which they could not then bear, or accept or understand.
"Briefly, in the sayings of Him Who is the Spirit (Jesus) unnumbered significances lie concealed. Unto many things did He refer, but as He found none possessed of a hearing ear or a seeing eye He chose to conceal most of these things. Even as He saith: “But ye cannot bear them now.” That Dawning-Place of Revelation saith that on that Day He Who is the Promised One will reveal the things which are to come." - Baha'u'llah
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BSM1
What? Me worry?
I am not a fan of prophecy interpretation because most prophecies seem to declared "met" after the fact. (Nostradamus comes to mind. "That must have been what he was talking about..." usually follows any discussion of his quatrains.) But here's a thought on "...stars falling from the heavens..". Yeshua never said the stars would fall on earth just out of heaven- disappear from the night sky. We have reached the point in our technological evolution where we know some stars that were there are no longer there (novae for instance). Could this be the cryptic meaning in the wording of the verse?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Hi BSM1,
The purpose of God in sending His Revelations has been to guide His flock to the right path.
Whenever there was a lack for guidance, He has provided that by sending His Prophets to establish the Religion.
While eventually at the end of every Age, these spiritual principles are faded and loose their effect.
This was also in the scripture of the other World religion, such as Hinduism and Buddhism:
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." (BG 4.7)
"To deliver the faithful, to annihilate the miscreants and also to reestablish the principles of occupational duty, I appear in every age." (BG 4.8)
"I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.' His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds."
As regards to the meaning of "Stars Fall", we can see that the Authors of Bible, used the Word "Stars", as a symbol for the Righteous, and spiritual glory, as can be seen in this verse for example:
“And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.” Daniel 12:3
So, I believe, whenever there is a decline in righteousness, that is to say whenever the light is turned to darkness, and the stars who are the symbols of guidance and righteousness disappear, at that time, God manifests to re-establish the principles of religion again.
As regards to the disappearance of stars physically from sky, I believe, that was not the intention of the Authors of Bible, but it is a good imagination!
The purpose of God in sending His Revelations has been to guide His flock to the right path.
Whenever there was a lack for guidance, He has provided that by sending His Prophets to establish the Religion.
While eventually at the end of every Age, these spiritual principles are faded and loose their effect.
This was also in the scripture of the other World religion, such as Hinduism and Buddhism:
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." (BG 4.7)
"To deliver the faithful, to annihilate the miscreants and also to reestablish the principles of occupational duty, I appear in every age." (BG 4.8)
"I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.' His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds."
As regards to the meaning of "Stars Fall", we can see that the Authors of Bible, used the Word "Stars", as a symbol for the Righteous, and spiritual glory, as can be seen in this verse for example:
“And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.” Daniel 12:3
So, I believe, whenever there is a decline in righteousness, that is to say whenever the light is turned to darkness, and the stars who are the symbols of guidance and righteousness disappear, at that time, God manifests to re-establish the principles of religion again.
As regards to the disappearance of stars physically from sky, I believe, that was not the intention of the Authors of Bible, but it is a good imagination!
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear LadyB,
In Addition to the reasons I gave you above from the Bible, I quote from Baha'u'llah Himself:
"Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His facethe face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book.
Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the part of those who have searched with such earnestness and longing. Their attack hath been more fierce than tongue or pen can describe. Not one single Manifestation of Holiness hath appeared but He was afflicted by the denials, the repudiation, and the vehement opposition of the people around Him. Thus it hath been revealed: O the misery of men! No Messenger cometh unto them but they laugh Him to scorn.* Again He saith: Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth. " - Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I have already discussed the meaning of coming in the clouds, and what is the meaning of every eye shall see him, in my previous posts.
Now, as regards to the part that says: "Even those who pierced him"
This means that the same type of people who wanted to kill and pierce the Body of Christ, would appear at the time of Baha'u'llah.
If you recall the concept of Return of Elijah as the Person of John the Baptist which is in the Bible, that should help with the Biblical meaning of the Return.
By return of Prophets, it is intended, a spritual return, not a physical one.
If we read the Old Testament we see, that according to scriptures, the Elijah was supposed to return before the Messiah:
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and... all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.... Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5
Now we should ask, was this prophecy fulfilled according to Bible?
Th answer is in the Bible:
"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13 (LIVING BIBLE-CATHOLIC EDITION) (this account can also be found in: Mark 9:11-13)
Now as to your question how is it that "He did not say he would come again under disguise and no one will know"
My reply: for the same reason that Elijah returned as John the Baptist. Did the old testament say, Elijah would come with a New Name?
No it did not!
No it did not!
But at least the Bible gave us a hint that Christ was to return with a new name to help us recognize Him.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I was a Baha'i twice. I quit the first time when in the 70's Christians showed me the "literal" word of God in their version of the Bible. The Baha'i's said that the spirit of truth to come was Baha'u'llah. In the book of Acts, it was the Christian Holy Spirit. The Baha'i's pretty much explained away a physical resurrection of Jesus by saying something like Jesus was brought back to life in the hearts of his followers.
So it is easy to fulfill anything you want by coming up with spiritualized interpretations. The big prophecy of the Baha'i Faith I used to hear was that there would be a lessor peace by the year 2000. What happened? I rejoined the Baha'i's in the late 80's and was there in San Francisco for their Peace Conference, and I remember their Peace Message. What happened? Are the Baha'i's bringing the world together in peace and unity? If they can do that, I will believe! But, so far, all I hear is talk. Yes, there has been some action, but mostly talk. And important Baha'i creed was "let deeds, not words, be your adorning."
I hope you can do something. The Baha'i Faith came out of Iran and the Islamic world. If you can bring peace and unity, do it already.
So it is easy to fulfill anything you want by coming up with spiritualized interpretations. The big prophecy of the Baha'i Faith I used to hear was that there would be a lessor peace by the year 2000. What happened? I rejoined the Baha'i's in the late 80's and was there in San Francisco for their Peace Conference, and I remember their Peace Message. What happened? Are the Baha'i's bringing the world together in peace and unity? If they can do that, I will believe! But, so far, all I hear is talk. Yes, there has been some action, but mostly talk. And important Baha'i creed was "let deeds, not words, be your adorning."
I hope you can do something. The Baha'i Faith came out of Iran and the Islamic world. If you can bring peace and unity, do it already.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Jesus pbuh will be back similar to the way he lefted up to heaven.
if you think that it is impossible for god to send Jesus pbuh from heaven to earth,then explain to us why impossible.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear Didymus,
As regards to literal interpretation of Bible, please see my post #45 and #47, as I have already discussed this in details.
As regards to prophecies regarding the Spirit of Truth. The Baha'i Scriptures explains Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth.
The reason is given as follows:
"In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.”
Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp. "
Some Answered Questions, p.51
Your explanation as "something like Jesus was brought back to life in the hearts" although might be an individual’s opinion, is not in the Baha'i Scriptures.
In our view, many of the writings of the Bible is Figurative and symbolic. That includes the story of Raising Jesus from the Dead.
The Body of Christ, according to the Bible is described as:
"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." 1 Cori. 12:27
The above verse describes the Body of Christ after His crucification, as His disciples. That is to say, His Disciples were His body members.
Thus, when the Bible said, the Body of Christ raised, in a spiritual sense, when the Disciples after 3 Days raised to serve the cause of Christ, it is said, the Christ has raised.
Otherwise in Baha'i View, Jesus did not raise in a physical sense, but only spiritually.
Moreover, here is farther clarification:
"Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” (1) while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact."
Some Answered Questions, p.49
(1): see John 3:13, literal translation
Dear Didymus,
This question is not related to subject of the thread. The subject of thread is Signs of the End. Please make a separate thread for these questions. Also, there is no such a thing in Baha'i Scriptures which says "that there would be a lessor peace by the year 2000" (please make a separate thread, I will be more than happy to discuss that with you)
so, do you mean, the Christ was not supposed to come from Persia?
Please see my post #45.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear FearGod,
Please see my post #54.
It is not about being impossible for God or not impossible for God. It is about how God returns His Messenger according to Scriptures. Please also see post #51, as I have discussed how God made Elijah to return as John the Baptist.
Note that our Christian brothers and sisters also say, God can do anything, and therefore God appeared as a Human.
That is like saying God can create a heavy stone, which He cannot lift. It is a logical fallacy. God does not do illogical things. He is the all-knowing, the all-wise.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear LadyB,
Please see my post #47.
According to Christ, He said “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."
These were things which they could not then bear, or accept or understand.
So, you cannot find their details in Bible, as people at that time were not ready to accept that, for example Adam is not the first human. Therefore we need to use the New Scriptures that is revealed for this Age.
This is the concept of Progressive revelations of God.
Basically, why, God did not send Jesus from beginning? Why He sent Moses before Him? The answer that Baha'i Scriptures give, is that, in each Age a new Manifestation of God appears who brings teachings which are according to the understanding and requirements of the people who live in that Age.
Lady B
noob
I have not deserted you or given up, I have been busy with a missionary family this weekend and will try to comment on each of your posts adressed to me tomorrow,by evening.Thank you and I miss you all
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Why it is illogical for Jesus pbuh to come from heaven,many have observed the UFOS,travelling with incredible speed.
Do you think it is hard for god to bring Jesus pbuh from heaven and can then you explain to me how god can answer our prays,is it logical that my pray will reach him in seconds and then how god bring a table of foods from the heaven,not possible.
So everything not possible for us,should be impossible for god,, no,it can't be so.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear FearGod,
In addition to the evidence that I gave from Bible in this thread, If you remember, I had already discussed 2 subjects in other threads, based on Quran.
One subject, was that according to Quran, those who are killed in the path of God are alive and in Heaven.
Moreover, according to Bible, the Physical Body cannot go to Heaven. Therefore it is not in accordance with Quran and Bible, that a physical body goes to heaven.
(I am only discussing the Holy Scriptures)
As God revealed in Quran, "Say, do you know better than Allah?"
I can only refer to what God reveals. His logic is above any person.
Another subject was that, according to Quran, some of the verses of Quran are Figurative, and non knows their Taweel(interpretation), until God reveals its interpretation on the Day of Resurrection, which according to Quran was 1000 years after the flow of guidance of Islam. That period is ended in year 1260 A.H in Islamic calendar. I believe in the Taweel that was revealed to Baha'u'llah, which is also in accordance with previous scriptures.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
From Islamic view Jesus pbuh raised to heaven and will be back in similar way.
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (4:157)
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (3:55)
So from verse 4:157 it is very clear that they didn't slay or crucify him,so simply he didn't die.
in verse 3:55 it is clear that god ascent Jesus pbuh to him to heaven
Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision. (3:169)
This verse is different that the one who have been slain in the way of god will be saved and of course his body was dead,so he'll have a new body.
So as i can see that Islam view do contradict christian view,whereas Bahai view is saying both are correct and that can't be.