Signs of The End: A Baha'i View

[Lady B]

Dear LadyB,

I have already replied to the above, in my post #45, #50, #51.
Please see those first if you would like a proper discussion. Because, this tells me you have not read them!
Moreover, According to the logic you are using, The Prophets in the Old Testament said, Messiah's Name is Immanuel. And they said, there will be False Prophets too.
Yes, Jesus said, there Will be False Prophets, but did not say, there will not be True Prophets. In fact, He said, you can know the True Prophets by their Fruits.

Dear Investigate truth
I have read all posts and decided there is little point to argue scripture if you do not interpret it correctly or constantly disagree in my interpretation and commentary. So if we are to debate rationally I am asking you to educate me on your prophet first. I would like to see how he could claim he is the Christ returned, what prophesies did he fulfill? What miracles did he perform? How was he our Christ? For all men to see? Though we didn't see him.

 

[savagewind]

Dear Savagewind, Please see my post #10.

According to Bible, Jesus is the image of God. I have fully explained this in #10.
The Manifestations of God are Mirrors that reflect the image of God, His Words and His Will to Mankind.
Now, God the Omnipotant is capable of Creating the Mirror in every Age.

Ask yourself "am I talking to you?". I shall go read it......

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear Investigate truth
I have read all posts and decided there is little point to argue scripture if you do not interpret it correctly or constantly disagree in my interpretation and commentary. So if we are to debate rationally I am asking you to educate me on your prophet first. I would like to see how he could claim he is the Christ returned, what prophesies did he fulfill? What miracles did he perform? How was he our Christ? For all men to see? Though we didn't see him.

Please also see my previous post.
Regarding Prophecies, you can read:

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lady B]

As regards to the proof. Baha'u'llah is the Proof. All you need to study His Character, His Teachings, His knowledge.
This is something everyone should do on their own.
The topic of the Thread is "the signs of the end". So, please let's keep the discussion as much possible within the subject.

Now regarding proof, Lets see what Baha'u'llah has said:


"O affectionate seeker! Shouldst thou soar in the holy realm of the spirit, thou wouldst recognize God manifest and exalted above all things, in such wise that thine eyes would behold none else but Him. “God was alone; there was none else besides Him.” So lofty is this station that no testimony can bear it witness, neither evidence do justice to its truth. Wert thou to explore the sacred domain of truth, thou wilt find that all things are known only by the light of His recognition, that He hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, known through Himself. And if thou dwellest in the land of testimony, content thyself with that which He, Himself, hath revealed: “Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto Thee the Book?” This is the testimony which He, Himself, hath ordained; greater proof than this there is none, nor ever will be: “This proof is His Word; His own Self, the testimony of His truth.”"
- Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude

“To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.”
- Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude

The proof of the sun is the light thereof, which shineth and envelopeth all things. The evidence of the shower is the bounty thereof, which reneweth and investeth the world with the mantle of life. Yea, the blind can perceive naught from the sun except its heat, and the arid soil hath no share of the showers of mercy. “Marvel not if in the Qur’án the unbeliever perceiveth naught but the trace of letters, for in the sun, the blind findeth naught but heat.”
- Baha'u'lla, Book of Certitude

In all due respect...
This is not any proof with substance. Here is the problem: you have tried to verify he is the Christ returned according to bible scripture. Well Our bible gives us ways to test all prophets, not by his fruits alone. So give me some prophesies he made and the fulfillment of such. Show me his miracles, surely he did many miracles right? I believe you have said he did and wrote them down, correct?

You invited me to this thread and it was not to discuss end times, You brought my quotes here that did not pertain to the end, moreover they pertained to the beginning, so I do not see how you can say it is off-topic now to discuss Bahaula's authenticity.

If the bible can prove to me whether Bahulala is indeed a prophet or not, then we can continue. Using a verse from Ezekiel prophesying Christ's return in the east is pretty vague don't you agree? Saying his name means Glory of God is also very vague and not exactly proof by any standard.

So let us try to prove him a true prophet the way God commands us to do shall we? Then we can move on. If you prefer I leave this thread, I will respect it and will make a new thread with these exact requests.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Now, what did the apostle Paul say about philosophy?
'See to it that no-one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which
depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.'
(Colossians 2:8, NIV).
-Almost all New Testament writers were adamant that Christianity was the only true
religion, and that all others were false
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by
which we must be saved.”—Acts 4:12
( previously answered)

In summery: The bible is to be taken literal in the things that are literal. The bible sure has
some things symbolic and mystery, This does not set a rule for interpreting scripture entirely
symbolic. When Daniel and Elijah speak of the seal, This in no way means all God's word is not
understandable to us,and that we are left to our own devices.

I am slowly working my way through your posts, bear with me please

Yes, that is right. Neither did I say everything in Bible is symbolic, did I?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In all due respect...
This is not any proof with substance. Here is the problem: you have tried to verify he is the Christ returned according to bible scripture. Well Our bible gives us ways to test all prophets, not by his fruits alone. So give me some prophesies he made and the fulfillment of such. Show me his miracles, surely he did many miracles right? I believe you have said he did and wrote them down, correct?

You invited me to this thread and it was not to discuss end times, You brought my quotes here that did not pertain to the end, moreover they pertained to the beginning, so I do not see how you can say it is off-topic now to discuss Bahaula's authenticity.

If the bible can prove to me whether Bahulala is indeed a prophet or not, then we can continue. Using a verse from Ezekiel prophesying Christ's return in the east is pretty vague don't you agree? Saying his name means Glory of God is also very vague and not exactly proof by any standard.

So let us try to prove him a true prophet the way God commands us to do shall we? Then we can move on. If you prefer I leave this thread, I will respect it and will make a new thread with these exact requests.

Please list From the Bible: How specifically Bible says to know the Prophets.

looks like, when you reply, I had already replied to this. See above for the list of Prophecies.

 

[Lady B]

Please list From the Bible: How specifically Bible says to know the Prophets.

looks like, when you reply, I had already replied to this. See above for the list of Prophecies.

yes I am slow, being distrcted by life!
here is the biblical tests for prophets. also I might add, all prophets from the Bible did maricles, that were witnessed by many.

Test # 1) Isa. 8:20. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

The "law" here is a reference to the "Law of Moses," the first five books of the Old Testament, which also contain the Ten Commandments law, and "testimony" is a reference to the rest of the Old Testament, and by extension including the New Testament, which also contains the "testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17), that both together explain what the "Law of Moses" means in mankind's practical experience.

True prophet's sayings are totally consistent with all that the Holy Spirit has already revealed in Scripture.

Test #2) Jer. 23:14. "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness. v.16, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD."

True prophets will reprove other prophet's sins, rather than conspire to support one-another's claims.

Test #3) Jer. 28:9. "The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, [then] shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him."

True prophet's predictions must come to pass, ALL of them.

Test #4) Mt. 7:15. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. ... Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. ...Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

True prophets lead people to repentance and humility before God, and to love their fellow humans. They never lead people to become competitive, prideful or self-exalting.

Test #5) 1 Jn. 4:2. "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" (See also Hebrews 4:15. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.")

True prophets confess that Jesus came in our "fallen" human flesh, yet He got the victory over every sin and all sin, just as we can, through connection with His Father and our Father.

Test #6) Dan. 10:17. "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me."

True prophets have no strength or breath of their own while in vision, but supernatural strength from God.
Test #7) Jn. 1:15. "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

True prophets exalt Christ alone, but never their own abilities.​

 

[savagewind]

God is Spirit. The Son of God is spirit by nature of the fact that He is God's Son. The Son of God accomplished salvation at the time he was put to death. John 19:30. There is no need for another savior. It is too obvious there is a need for more teachers. There is ONE savior. Lady B is correct. Baha'u'llah is not a savior. A teacher, yes probably, but not a savior.

 

[Lady B]

God is Spirit. The Son of God is spirit by nature of the fact that He is God's Son. The Son of God accomplished salvation at the time he was put to death. John 19:30. There is no need for another savior. It is too obvious there is a need for more teachers. There is ONE savior. Lady B is correct. Baha'u'llah is not a savior. A teacher, yes probably, but not a savior.

Amen broxther I mean sister!!!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

yes I am slow, being distrcted by life!
here is the biblical tests for prophets. also I might add, all prophets from the Bible did maricles, that were witnessed by many.

Test # 1) Isa. 8:20. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

The "law" here is a reference to the "Law of Moses," the first five books of the Old Testament, which also contain the Ten Commandments law, and "testimony" is a reference to the rest of the Old Testament, and by extension including the New Testament, which also contains the "testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17), that both together explain what the "Law of Moses" means in mankind's practical experience.

True prophet's sayings are totally consistent with all that the Holy Spirit has already revealed in Scripture.

Yes, ofcourse Baha'u'llah sayings are totally consistent with ALL other Divine Messengers. Moreover Baha'u'llah helps people to correct those teachings of the Messengers of past, who people have forgotten.

Test #2) Jer. 23:14. "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness. v.16, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD."

True prophets will reprove other prophet's sins, rather than conspire to support one-another's claims.

This is talking about False Prophets who comitted adultry. Please read previous verses to see this within the context.

Test #3) Jer. 28:9. "The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, [then] shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him."

True prophet's predictions must come to pass, ALL of them.

Ofcourse All teachings of Baha'u'llah is to establish peace and unity.

Test #4) Mt. 7:15. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. ... Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. ...Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

True prophets lead people to repentance and humility before God, and to love their fellow humans. They never lead people to become competitive, prideful or self-exalting.

Ofcourse, All you need to do, is read the life and teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Test #5) 1 Jn. 4:2. "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" (See also Hebrews 4:15. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.")

True prophets confess that Jesus came in our "fallen" human flesh, yet He got the victory over every sin and all sin, just as we can, through connection with His Father and our Father.

This one, you have seen so far surly.

Test #6) Dan. 10:17. "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me."

True prophets have no strength or breath of their own while in vision, but supernatural strength from God.

Ofcourse.

Test #7) Jn. 1:15. "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

True prophets exalt Christ alone, but never their own abilities.​

Ofcourse Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus.
Read His writings about the things Baha'u'llah have said about Jesus.

Now it is your job to see it for yourself!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

God is Spirit. The Son of God is spirit by nature of the fact that He is God's Son. The Son of God accomplished salvation at the time he was put to death. John 19:30. There is no need for another savior. It is too obvious there is a need for more teachers. There is ONE savior. Lady B is correct. Baha'u'llah is not a savior. A teacher, yes probably, but not a savior.

Good Job, That was quick.
I wonder how long it took you to figure it out.

 

[Lady B]

I am off to rest and spend some time with family, will continue this tomorrow, peace!

 

[savagewind]

Good Job, That was quick.
I wonder how long it took you to figure it out.

I am 56. It was 56 years in the making!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am 56. It was 56 years in the making!

Dear Savagewind.

You have written:

God is Spirit. The Son of God is spirit by nature of the fact that He is God's Son. The Son of God accomplished salvation at the time he was put to death. John 19:30. There is no need for another savior. It is too obvious there is a need for more teachers. There is ONE savior. Lady B is correct. Baha'u'llah is not a savior. A teacher, yes probably, but not a savior.

Jesus Prophesized that


"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
- John 16:13


Baha'u'llah fulfilled this Prophecy:

"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." - Baha'u'llah



The Prophecy that Jesus did was that, when the Promised One comes, He will tell us of the things to come. That is this Age that we live in, not the Age Jesus lived.
Baha'u'llah came for this Age. He is the Savior for this Age to bring Unity and peace to mankind.
His Holiness Christ had come for previous Age, and brought teachings for that Age, but as the people of that Age were not ready to accept teachings regarding peace and Unity, it was left for Baha'u'llah.
His Holiness Baha'u'llah spent most of His life in prison so, mankind may be saved. He prophesized that a time will come, All people of the earth will be united.

 

[savagewind]

Is Baha'u'llah a man? He might be your savior but he is not World's savior. I have had many helpers. All together we can not save the world. The World will be saved, if it is saved, by the Spirit who has been manifest in ONE, not many. There is just one leader. The leader is the promised messiah. He came. There is not another. How can there be?

 

[savagewind]

If it were possible for there to be another messiah I suppose Heaven would allow for another one. I think it is not possible for there to be two.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Is Baha'u'llah a man? He might be your savior but he is not World's savior. I have had many helpers. All together we can not save the world. The World will be saved, if it is saved, by the Spirit who has been manifest in ONE, not many. There is just one leader. The leader is the promised messiah. He came. There is not another. How can there be?

Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God.
He Fulfills the Prophecies Regarding Return of Christ.
This is the subject of the Thread!

Baha'u'llah wrote to many, proclaiming His station:

"O CONCOURSE of priests! The Day of Reckoning hath appeared, the Day whereon He Who was in heaven hath come. He, verily, is the One Whom ye were promised in the Books of God, the Holy, the Almighty, the All-Praised. How long will ye wander in the wilderness of heedlessness and superstition? Turn with your hearts in the direction of your Lord, the Forgiving, the Generous. " Baha'u'llah, Proclaimation of Baha'u'llah, p.27

So, you do not believe in Return of Christ?

 

[savagewind]

I believe Christ. I believe what he said. Don't you? I was a part of a group that believes the same thing like Baha'u'llah said on p.27. The Jehovah's Witnesses. Interesting. I don't believe any person or group represents the return of Christ.

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save

I wonder what Baha'u'llah says about the Lord's prayer?

I could not have posted on your thread if you had posted in the blue DIR section. OK?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear SavageWind and LadyB,

The Bible called Jesus, the Image of God, and has used the term Mirror and Image as an analogy to describe the station of Jesus, and the appearance of Glory of God.

So, we should think what really this means.
Consider a Mirror. If we place this Mirror in front of the Sun, what do we see in the Mirror?
We see the light of Sun, the image of sun inside the Mirror.
If we put two identical mirrors in front of the Sun, what do we see in them? We see the same exact image. The light and image of the Sun appears exactly in both.
Now if we put Mirror #1 yesterday in front of the Sun, and Today we put another identical Mirror #2 in front of the Sun. Today we see the same Sun in Mirror #2 as We Saw yesterday in Mirror #1, because the Sun that appears yesterday, is the same Sun that appeared today.
So, if there was a Perfect Mirror whose Name was Jesus who appeared 2000 years ago, who reflected the light of God, the Word, and Attribute of God, and they saw the image of God in Him, then another Identical Mirror has appeared 150 years ago, whose name was Baha’u’llah. Both of them reflect the same Truth, for the God that Manifested in previous Age, is the same God that appeared in this Age.

As the Bible says in the Chapter of Revelation:


"I will write upon him my new name. 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."


The verse of Bible says, He comes with a new Name, NOT Jesus.

Regarding the Name of Baha'u'llah . Baha'u'llah in Arabic means Glory of God. It is in the Bible that says:

"and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2


It was Baha'u'llah who came from East to Israel.
Moreover, the Bible prophesized, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God.

Therefore we had other Mirrors whose names were Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Moses and Zoroaster each one appeared in a different Age, and they reflected the Word and Will of God for the people of their time.
This is the reason Muhammad said I am all the Prophets.
All these Mirrors, had prophesized that, when the new Age come, a Manifestation of God would appear. Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of those Prophecies.

If it were possible for there to be another messiah I suppose Heaven would allow for another one. I think it is not possible for there to be two.

The Messiah was the Title of Jesus who was prophecises in Old Testament.
Baha'u'llah manifested with other Titles as it was prophecised:

To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.”
To Him Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, had alluded in His Book as the “Great Announcement,” and declared His Day to be the Day whereon “God” will “come down” “overshadowed with clouds,” the Day whereon “thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank,” and “The Spirit shall arise and the angels shall be ranged in order.” His advent He, in that Book, in a súrih said to have been termed by Him “the heart of the Qur’án,” had foreshadowed as that of the “third” Messenger, sent down to “strengthen” the two who preceded Him.

Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I believe Christ. I believe what he said. Don't you? I was a part of a group that believes the same thing like Baha'u'llah said on p.27. The Jehovah's Witnesses. Interesting. I don't believe any person or group represents the return of Christ.

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save

Dear Savagewind,

Baha'u'llah is not just a reglar Man. He is the Manifestation of God. This is the first thing that a person should investigate to see this Truth.

I wonder what Baha'u'llah says about the Lord's prayer?

I am not sure what you asking. Please clarify.