Lady B
noob
Dear investigate truth:
while I don't value your support, I value your admittance, finally something we can agree on!
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Signs of The End: A Baha'i View
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
while I don't value your support, I value your admittance, finally something we can agree on!
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Thank you Lady B for your explanation.
Sins are bad things,so who make sins are actually a bad person,such as killing,stealing...etc.
Jesus pbuh is a sinless man,which means he is of perfect morals.
So now in order to save the bad people who do sins,god should sacrifice a good person.
in other words if there is one country with many bad people who are criminals,then to let those criminals free,we should bring the most innocent person who never did any crime and to kill him so the others will be free from their bad deeds and also they can go in doing sins since that the innocent one had already being killed paying for their awful deeds.
Lady B,am i wrong,or should i understand it in a different way.
Lady B
noob
Dear Fear God:
You have a man's understanding, while it is logical in man's logic, it is not logical in God's logic.let me give you a example in human terms. Can I?
A man is ruler and governor in a village, he is well respected and abides by all laws, and expects others to abide by them as well.can they? Can an entire village obey all laws? This governor loves his people so much that when the day comes for judgment on his people, he chooses to offer himself a sacrifice for them. We humans cannot conceive this, have we ever really sacrificed our selves for anyone? Have we loved a people so much? For instance when you saw the terrible things that the American filmmakers did, how they hurt your prophet, how they insulted and degraded your religion, did it ever enter your mind to pay their penalty? To give your life that they should be forgiven? No. It may have entered your mind to give your life in defense of Islam and your prophet, but I assure you, you never thought to die for the sinner. God did. He alone did. No sinless man has ever taken on sin for our sakes but this man. How do we thank him? We say he deceived us by escaping in the end? I beg you to reconsider what you are saying, God did not reconsider, he loved us so much that he gave us the ultimate sacrifice. He foretold us his plans, though we didn't see, look to Abraham. He was willing to do Gods will and sacrifice his son, yet God stopped him and gave him a lamb, a spotless sinless sacrifice. Had the lamb deserved death? No.
I have a great respect for Islam, please don't get me wrong, I admire the works of Mohammad, I do. Some great doctrines we disagree in, I am not trying to change a religion, I just ask you to reason with me, and let us use our God given minds. That is all....
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Dear Fear God:
You have a man's understanding, while it is logical in man's logic, it is not logical in God's logic.let me give you a example in human terms. Can I?
A man is ruler and governor in a village, he is well respected and abides by all laws, and expects others to abide by them as well.can they? Can an entire village obey all laws? This governor loves his people so much that when the day comes for judgment on his people, he chooses to offer himself a sacrifice for them. We humans cannot conceive this, have we ever really sacrificed our selves for anyone? Have we loved a people so much? For instance when you saw the terrible things that the American filmmakers did, how they hurt your prophet, how they insulted and degraded your religion, did it ever enter your mind to pay their penalty? To give your life that they should be forgiven? No. It may have entered your mind to give your life in defense of Islam and your prophet, but I assure you, you never thought to die for the sinner. God did. He alone did. No sinless man has ever taken on sin for our sakes but this man. How do we thank him? We say he deceived us by escaping in the end? I beg you to reconsider what you are saying, God did not reconsider, he loved us so much that he gave us the ultimate sacrifice. He foretold us his plans, though we didn't see, look to Abraham. He was willing to do Gods will and sacrifice his son, yet God stopped him and gave him a lamb, a spotless sinless sacrifice. Had the lamb deserved death? No.
I have a great respect for Islam, please don't get me wrong, I admire the works of Mohammad, I do. Some great doctrines we disagree in, I am not trying to change a religion, I just ask you to reason with me, and let us use our God given minds. That is all....
execuse us Investigatetruth that we may have moved from the main topic.
Could you please inform me what is the meaning of sacrifice?
What sacrifice means to you? and do you think that god need one to be sacrificed (jesus pbuh in our case) to forgive our sins.
Do you think god got no other choices to save us except by sacrificing his son.
Can god forgive our sins without a sacrifice,or god can't do it except if there is a sacrifice.
Lady B
noob
yes Fear God, I can explain it the best I know how, but without ears to hear or eyes to see, you may not understand. In all of the old testament, th eTorah, God required animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. I do not know why except it was a forshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. God shed the first blood sacrifice after the fall of adam, when He killed the animal to clothe them, from thence, Abel sacrificed an animal and Cain gave fruit, God loved abels sacrifice more and this lead to one brother killing another. Why an animal who did no harm? I believe It was God's way of showing us how his son would be sinless yet sacrificed for us.
yes God has all power, he could just say" i forgive the world" and we would be forgiven. This is not what he did however, and we are not to question his intentions in this way. let us look at real life, If you are constantly against your father, always disobediant to him, shaming him and hurting him. and he says" hey no problem ,I forgive you" will you then repent and change your heart? or will you need to see your father in a more holy sanctified way? God is so holy, we can't even look at his face or we would die...He cannot look at sin, or sinful men, He just cannot... He requires a sacrifice, a true sacrifice. He did not just except any animal, it had to be the best man had, spotless.
God then gave us his only begotten son. The most perfect sacrifice.
I know you have a huge problem in this, your mind is saying " hey why does God, who can do anything by just his word require this? My answer is, he is Holy, so Holy.....
This only says that He has come, it didn't say that he himself was Him.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
yes Fear God, I can explain it the best I know how, but without ears to hear or eyes to see, you may not understand. In all of the old testament, th eTorah, God required animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. I do not know why except it was a forshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. God shed the first blood sacrifice after the fall of adam, when He killed the animal to clothe them, from thence, Abel sacrificed an animal and Cain gave fruit, God loved abels sacrifice more and this lead to one brother killing another. Why an animal who did no harm? I believe It was God's way of showing us how his son would be sinless yet sacrificed for us.
yes God has all power, he could just say" i forgive the world" and we would be forgiven. This is not what he did however, and we are not to question his intentions in this way. let us look at real life, If you are constantly against your father, always disobediant to him, shaming him and hurting him. and he says" hey no problem ,I forgive you" will you then repent and change your heart? or will you need to see your father in a more holy sanctified way? God is so holy, we can't even look at his face or we would die...He cannot look at sin, or sinful men, He just cannot... He requires a sacrifice, a true sacrifice. He did not just except any animal, it had to be the best man had, spotless.
God then gave us his only begotten son. The most perfect sacrifice.
I know you have a huge problem in this, your mind is saying " hey why does God, who can do anything by just his word require this? My answer is, he is Holy, so Holy.....
As not to disturb the main topic of our friend InvestigateTruth,then i moved our debate to a new thread Click here Please
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
How about this one:
"I never passed a tree but Mine heart addressed it saying: ‘O would that thou wert cut down in My name, and My body crucified upon thee.’ We revealed this passage in the Epistle to the Sháh that it might serve as a warning to the followers of religions. Verily, thy Lord is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. " - Baha'u'llah
or this one:
"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me." - Baha'u'llah
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The Spirit of Jesus was manifest in his own disciples as well, and they too were crucified.
What's the difference?
Did Baha'u'llah claim to be the King of the Kingdom of Israel and to be the head of all 12 tribes gathered?
Did he claim to be of the seed of David with the right to sit upon Israel's throne?
Did he claim to be primarily of the tribe of Ephraim, which is the birthright, and thereby having the priesthood authority to gather the other tribes of Israel?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, He did.
"Ye are but vassals, O Kings of the earth! He Who is the King of kings hath appeared, arrayed in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation; lest the things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven. Arise, and serve Him Who is the Desire of all nations, Who hath created you through a word from Him, and ordained you to be, for all time, the emblems of His sovereignty." -Baha'u'llah
"Say, O followers of the Son! Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness." - Baha'u'llah
"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. " - Baha'u'llah
"O concourse of priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches. It behoveth you, in this day, to proclaim aloud the Most Great Name among the nations. Prefer ye to be silent, whilst every stone and every tree shouteth aloud: The Lord is come in His great glory!? " - Baha'u'llah
"O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined Dwellest thou in palaces whilst He Who is the King of Revelation liveth in the most desolate of abodes? Leave them unto such as desire them, and set thy face with joy and delight towards the Kingdom Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence, and first drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths " -Baha'u'llah
And many more,
Here are references:
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Baháulláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Baháulláh
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None of these claims were about himself, unless you read that into these statements.
There is no mention here about his own person being the Lord of Creation, etc.
He is simply announcing that He is here, somewhere.
Also, you have not answered my questions with anything substantive.
What about his Davidic ancestry?
What about his standing in Ephraim?
What about his gathering the 12 tribes of Israel?
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear Kylixguru,
In this thread I am discussing the Prophecies of the End Time and Second Coming of Christ and other Promised Ones, according to what Bible and other Books say, not from anything else.
In Baha'i view, this Prophecy is Fulfilled. The references of 'He' is to Baha'u'llah, as the Manifestation of God for this Age, and I am familiar with Baha'i Texts and the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
I am not going to do all the work for you, the references I gave you has the info you are looking for.
So, first, if you like to discuss this, you should choose some quotes from the verses of Bible, then I can discuss how they are fulfilled.
I have already discussed many of them in this thread, first please refer to them, just to avoid repeating them. This is a discussion that needs to go step by step, and some initial steps are already discussed in this thread.
My questions are valid.
My responses are justified.
The King Messiah shall be of David's seed.
Shiloh, the birthright, receives the scepter from Judah in the last days.
The Shepherd, the Stone of Israel, is of Joseph's tribe.
I am not going to mill through everything you have written or links you have posted.
Either such references exist for Baha'u'llah to fulfill these aspects of end times Messianic prophecy or he doesn't.
You are the expert making the claims, please provide the specific references to substantiate such.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear Kylixguru,
I did not say your questions are not valid. However, the accuracy of quoting the exact verses, is important to this discussion, and as my time is limited, I liked others to help finding the information from Bible or the Books they are also familiar, then I can do my part.
Anyways, you had asked me about David Branch, and if there is any reference in Baha'u'llah's Books.
Yes, here it is:
“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related."
– Baha’u’llah
“I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned…. Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart.”
- Baha’u’llah
Regarding other info, please quote from the Bible, I will find the info from Baha'i Scriptures. Looking forward to chat with you.
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You need to please provide the actual reference for these quotes.
What book, chapter, verse, etc.?
I would like to read these quotes in their complete context.
So far I do not yet see Baha'u'llah saying that he alone is the fulfillment, but that he is saying the fulfillment now exists.
Also, neither of these passages say anything about him being of the bloodline of King David or of him being of the birthright tribe of Ephraim or of Joseph.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
How would the following verse is not saying He alone is the fulfillment?
“I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned…. Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart.”
- Baha’u’llah
" I am the Sun of Wisdom and the Ocean of Knowledge. I cheer the faint and revive the dead. I am the guiding Light that illumineth the way. I am the royal Falcon on the arm of the Almighty. I unfold the drooping wings of every broken bird and start it on its flight. " - Baha'u'llah
Please provide these verses in Bible, which says, He is "bloodline of King David or of him being of the birthright tribe of Ephraim or of Joseph"
Reference? Which verse? Chapter?
I am not sure what your current religious background is, and what religion you believe. knowing your background can help to communicate with you.
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Because I do not see the context that quote is in. That is why I asked for exact references so I can look it up for myself.
I don't fit any religious mold so it wouldn't be helpful for you.
Just think of me as someone who sees validity in all religious traditions, in as much as their holy texts are transmitted, translated and understood correctly.
That's why I am asking you to provide specific references.
As far as mine go, I am referring to the well known promise to King David, that the Messiah would be from his offspring. It's important to note, this was a personal promise that applied to the house of David as an individual and was not meant to be applied to the tribe of Judah as a whole. Of course we understand that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, but in order for the Messiah to return and to sit upon the throne in victory, there has to be reconciliation with the birthright tribe in the last days too.
If you look at Genesis 49 you can see what I am referring to.
Genesis 49
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
...
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [Shiloh] shall the gathering of the people be.
...
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence [Joseph] is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
Verse 1 clearly establishes that these passages pertain to what should befall the children of Jacob (Israel) in the last days.
Verse 10 clearly indicates Judah as a tribe does not maintain the kingship in the last days, but that the kingship goes back to the Birthright, which is what Shiloh is a reference to. Shiloh is the city where Ephraim's seat of power was located. It is also derived from Hebrew that means "to whom the right belongs". This means that in the end-times of the last days that it will be Ephraim's responsibility to gather the 12 tribes of Israel and to hold the scepter over them all, including Judah. This passage more or less says that when Shiloh comes, the scepter shall depart from Judah's tribe to his tribe, which is the birthright tribe.
Verse 24 indicates a confirmation that the Shepherd and the Stone of Israel shall come from the House of Joseph. This is the great High Priest and King that shall rule over the whole House of Israel.
Verse 26 provides additional confirmation that the crown does indeed go to Joseph and that the dream that Joseph had that all of his brothers, as well as his progenitors, would give obeisance to him.
The Jews would again try and sell Joseph down the road and try to take from Joseph the glory that has been ordained to him, but their long lost brother shall return and "rouse them up".
So, with this understanding, I look to qualify those who make claims of being the end times King-Priest-Messiah of the last days to ascertain if they are aware of how the birthright of Israel will factor in. If Baha'u'llah never made any mention of being of the tribe of Ephraim or of Joseph, then he would not qualify to be the King-Messiah you are trying to purport that he was.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Let's talk about them one by one. First regarding davidic Throne.
Non of the verses you have quoted, is using the word "blood line" if we want to look at them the way, you look at the Baha'i Scriptures.
The verses in Bible uses the word "Branch" or in some Translations "Throne of David"
For example:
"But King Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established
before the LORD forever." 1. King 2:45
In the verse I quoted from Baha'u'llah, He is clearly refering to Himself as the Ancient Beauty on the Throne of David.
"THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’" - Baha'u'llah
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 89-90
Jesus also according to Bible did not have a Physical Father. The Jews do not accept Him to fulfill this Prophecy.
However, Baha'u'llah has clearly said that in His verse.
If you are saying why Baha'u'llah did not use the Word "Bloodline", then I tell you, the Bible also does not use the Word Blood Line either. So, let's be fair in our Judgements.
Moreover, just to give you some background to Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah in His Written Will, anounced that after Him, Abdulbaha is the Infallible Succesor, and He Perfectly knows the Knowledge of the Verses of God. So, if you are looking to Baha'i Revelation, the Proper Way is to know that the guidance and interpretation of Scriptures continued until Shoghi Effendi, and it is not proper to separate them from Baha'i Revelation.
Abdulbaha, has explained the following in His Writings:
"When Christ appeared, twenty centuries ago, although the Jews were eagerly awaiting His Coming, and prayed every day, with tears, saying: ‘O God, hasten the Revelation of the Messiah,’ yet when the Sun of Truth dawned, they denied Him and rose against Him with the greatest enmity, and eventually crucified that divine Spirit, the Word of God, and named Him Beelzebub, the evil one, as is recorded in the Gospel. The reason for this was that they said: ‘The Revelation of Christ, according to the clear text of the Torah, will be attested by certain signs, and so long as these signs have not appeared, whoso layeth claim to be a Messiah is an impostor. Among these signs is this, that the Messiah should come from an unknown place, yet we all know this man’s house in Nazareth, and can any good thing come out of Nazareth? The second sign is that He shall rule with a rod of iron, that is, He must act with the sword, but this Messiah has not even a wooden staff. Another of the conditions and signs is this: He must sit upon the throne of David and establish David’s sovereignty. Now, far from being enthroned, this man has not even a mat to sit on. Another of the conditions is this: the promulgation of all the laws of the Torah; yet this man has abrogated these laws, and has even broken the sabbath day, although it is the clear text of the Torah that whosoever layeth claim to prophethood and revealeth miracles and breaketh the sabbath day, must be put to death. Another of the signs is this, that in His reign justice will be so advanced that righteousness and well-doing will extend from the human even to the animal world—the snake and the mouse will share one hole, and the eagle and the partridge one nest, the lion and the gazelle shall dwell in one pasture, and the wolf and the kid shall drink from one fountain. Yet now, injustice and tyranny have waxed so great in His time that they have crucified Him! Another of the conditions is this, that in the days of the Messiah the Jews will prosper and triumph over all the peoples of the world, but now they are living in the utmost abasement and servitude in the empire of the Romans. Then how can this be the Messiah promised in the Torah?’
In this wise did they object to that Sun of Truth, although that Spirit of God was indeed the One promised in the Torah. But as they did not understand the meaning of these signs, they crucified the Word of God. Now the Bahá’ís hold that the recorded signs did come to pass in the Manifestation of Christ, although not in the sense which the Jews understood, the description in the Torah being allegorical. For instance, among the signs is that of sovereignty. For Bahá’ís say that the sovereignty of Christ was a heavenly, divine, everlasting sovereignty, not a Napoleonic sovereignty that vanisheth in a short time. For well nigh two thousand years this sovereignty of Christ hath been established, and until now it endureth, and to all eternity that Holy Being will be exalted upon an everlasting throne.
In like manner all the other signs have been made manifest, but the Jews did not understand. Although nearly twenty centuries have elapsed since Christ appeared with divine splendour, yet the Jews are still awaiting the coming of the Messiah and regard themselves as true and Christ as false. " Selection From the Witings of Abdulbaha,p.38
In like manner all the other signs have been made manifest, but the Jews did not understand. Although nearly twenty centuries have elapsed since Christ appeared with divine splendour, yet the Jews are still awaiting the coming of the Messiah and regard themselves as true and Christ as false. " Selection From the Witings of Abdulbaha,p.38
"In Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, it is said: “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him.....
.....This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened.
.....But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh....."
Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions, p.32
Moreover, the other verses I gave from Baha'u'llah, is clearly saying "I am".
If you like to read them within the context, here are references:
"Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me. I am the Sun of Wisdom and the Ocean of Knowledge. I cheer the faint and revive the dead. I am the guiding Light that illumineth the way. I am the royal Falcon on the arm of the Almighty. I unfold the drooping wings of every broken bird and start it on its flight" - Baha'u'llah
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-3.html
"I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned…. Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart. " - Baha'u'llah
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-7.html.utf8
Please let's try to keep the subject within the scope of thread "Signs of the End"
If Baha'u'llah is Christ then the World is in BIG trouble. He is not even mentioned in Time The 100 Most Influential People Of All Time September 2012. Why I wonder?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear, have you not read the Bible, when Jesus said: "the world shall not recieve Him, because they cannot see Him"
Morever, those who wrote about 100 most influential people, were they part of the Bible, and they are inspired by God, and do they know the truth?
Moreover, it has passed only 150 years from the Baha'i Revelation.
How long did it take for Christianity to spread around the World?
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