Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I like to return the love of your wisdom, and your kindness Tony
You are a very wonderful person and your energy does make people happier 
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Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
You are a very wonderful person and your energy does make people happier 
Jim
Nets of Wonder
@Trailblazer @Tony Bristow-Stagg @loverofhumanity and any other people practicing and defending Baha’i beliefs in Internet discussions, I think now that I’ve been putting all the blame on you for something that is not entirely your fault, maybe not even your fault at all. I’m feeling very foolish now.
Please see this post: People’s personal issues with me
Please see this post: People’s personal issues with me
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I can agree in the sense that Jesus is the governing invisible head of the Christian congregation.
However, I think a more spectacular time is ahead of us:
Executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked.
- Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Psalms 92:7
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can agree that Jesus is ruling from heaven on His throne, so Jesus is not visible to us on Earth..
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting..” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 54-56
Yes, agree a heavenly throne - Revelation 3:21
The ' bad ' things of the Earth pass away because the heavenly things pass Not away.
Bad things such as: the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Humble meek people will inherit the Earth which abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, they will.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
God does not give us rules. Men give us rules. Men pretending to speak for God give us rules. God has no reason to give us rules. God is perfect, complete, and whole without any needs or desires. What need is God fulfilling by giving men rules? What desire is God fulfilling by giving man rules? You choose to believe in a God who has limitations, is not perfect, is not complete, and is not whole. You can't have it both ways. Either God is omnipotent or God has an agenda in order to become omnipotent. This is why the rules you think are coming from God are actually coming from men. Men want to have power. Men want to be omnipotent. So men invent rules they claim are from God so they can build an hierarchical structure of power so they can sit at the top and pretend to be God on Earth. I'm sorry your faith is blinding you that you cannot see the truth. In my World, having faith in God is choice. It is not a decision based on fear. If you want justice, you have to get it in a secular court of law.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
We do not get to choose what choices our life presents to us. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils. Unless each of us had omnipotent powers so we can define our own choices then life is not a test of morality.
You like "punishment". So you and your God are sadomasochistic. As I suspected you do not worship a god of love.
There is nothing logical about your choice of opinions.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
God is never displeased by our behaviors. There is NO amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free will. God is indifferent to our actions.
I do not believe God cares one way or the other on any actions anyone takes. God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. If God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires why would God care about anything man does? God doesn't care. If we crap in our own bed it is up to us to clean it up. Your wish for some kind of justice is the afterlife is just wishful thinking. It is pure fantasy. Because just as God doesn't participate in the affairs of man during the time he is alive why would he start after man dies? This idea of eternal suffering is just made up BS so MEN can control other men with fear. Centuries ago you used to have to buy your absolution from the church. Today is not much different. You are just so wrapped up in a cult you can't see it. A skunk can't smell his own stink.
God is not an object out there. God is an experience that comes from within. Theist often claim there is an experience of a presence much greater than themselves which is the cause for them choosing to believe in God. People who claim to be theists because of scripture are posing or pretending. Choosing to believe in God out of fear is sadomasochistic. God has no reason to be evil. God has no reason to be a sadist. God has no reason to dole out the cruel and unusual punishment of eternal suffering so many people can take pleasure in thinking He does. People who take pleasure in other people's suffering are sadists. This is like a woman who has an abusive relationship who says her husband loves her even though she is sporting a huge black eye. Love is love. Hate is hate. For you it seems hate is love.
Because no matter how much they tell me otherwise their poop smells just as bad as everyone else's. Why do you allow yourself to be manipulated by posers pretending to be God is the more important question. People are evil. Evil is always where you least expect it. People want to control other people by creating a power structure. Anyone who tells you what to think is manipulating you. Unless the person is telling you stop listening to what other people are telling you what to think!
If it walks like a duck.
A skunk can't smell her own stink.
Tell this to the new mom who just had her first baby yesterday. We choose how we experience the World. If you see the World through a lens of hate this is how you will experience the World. The problem is you think your lens doesn't exist or is common sense. It isn't.
There is just as much evidence the World is the greatest possible blessing from God as there is the dark opinion "this dire since WWII." People with love in their heart see love. People with hate in their heart see evil and "dire".
Certainly your opinion is not a perfect mirror. I'm sure your Messengers are saints. But becoming a saint does not come from reading scripture. No one can take your spiritual journey for you. You have to do the hard work. Reading scripture and quoting scripture as if the words came from God is idol worship. You are fan of religion. You are not doing the work by yourself. You are letting other people do the work for you pretending you have done the work. I'm sorry you cannot see why this is important.
I believe in love and fellowship. I do not believe in the language of authoritarianism. All kings ever want to do is have wars, kill people, and create empires. I am a pacifist. I choose not to participate in the hate created by people pretending to speak for God.
There is only one all-power all-loving God. And this God is not a god of judgment like the false one you worship. Love means acceptance of our imperfections and the bad behaviors that are the result no matter what happens in our lives. Do you think a mother stops loving her child because their child has been convicted of being a mass murderer? She continues to love her child because her child is a piece of her soul. Just like each of us is a piece of God's soul.
Keep on hating. Keep on idol worshiping your scripture. Keep polishing your Messenger idols. I am getting bored with your god of hate. All you keep doing is pretending hate is love.
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dfnj
Well-Known Member
You seem to be operating under the delusion your opinions are absolute truths. This is not the case. When it comes to matters of spirituality everything is a subjective opinion. All we have is things that are made up. What we do is come up with a set of ideas that we accept as being true based on faith. These ideas cannot be proven one way or the other. Every religion is built on a set of axioms or assumptions that are considered to be true without any proof. It's not just religion but any belief system.
The purpose of religion is the answer the four great existential questions:
1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. What does it all mean?
4. What is going to happen to me when I die?
In many ways these are unanswerable questions. But people invent religion because many people are uncomfortable with unanswerable questions. People want the comfort that comes from having concrete answers and absolute truth. This is why we make things up.
The difference between you and me is you think your Messengers are telling you absolute truth. Where as I am choosing to have faith in my own beliefs.
My idea when we die we go into the light as been documented over thousands of years by people having near-death experiences. The people who have had near-death experiences all claim the experiences was no only positive but extremely positive. People have described the experience as an exceedingly high level of fulfilling love. So I have taken this and incorporated into my chosen belief that when we die we go into the light and experience the infinite beauty of God's face as our last experience before we melt back into the soul of God.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Just because God allows evil that does not mean God is not displeased.
God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires but humans are not perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. God cares about human needs.
God expects us to clean up our own messes but God sends Messengers to help us.
The reason God doesn't participate in the affairs of man during the time he is alive is because we have a rational mind and free will so that we can deal with our own affairs. If justice was not done in this world God will be able to exercise it in the next world since we won’t be able to.
I told you I do not believe in eternal suffering so that is a straw man you have made.
God exists out there separate from us, but God is not an object. God is unknowable.
You cannot know that about other people, you only know about yourself.
God is not evil or a sadist. Whatever punishment God doles out is deserved, it is not cruel or unusual.
The answer is that I don’t because they are not pretenders.
Messengers do not tell me what to think, but you do, so who is the manipulator?
That won’t work. It is still manipulation.
But I don’t walk like a duck. It is you who is judging people, not me. Anyone can see that, you do it constantly.
There you go again, judging me. This is what people resort to when they cannot win an argument.
Tell that to the Covid-19 patients who are dying and the valiant health care workers who are dying trying to save them. Those are the ones with love in their hearts.
This is a blessing? You live in a world make believe.
I am not trying to become a saint.
I worship of the one true God through His Messenger and I do all my own work.
You worship a God you created in your own mind, an imaginary God.
There is only one all-power all-loving God and this God is a God that judges in accordance with justice, the one true God I worship.
You worship a God you created in your own mind, an imaginary God.
A loving mother punishes her child when he behaves badly. That is how children learn to behave. Every psychologist knows that permissive parenting is the worst kind.
A just God is not a God of hate; it is a God of justice. I do not hate anybody and neither does God.
Punishment is not hate, it is punishment and when warranted it is justice.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When did I ever say that? I believe they are true, and that is my right, but I am not expecting anyone else to believe as I do.
It is true that all beliefs are based upon faith, but that does not mean that religions are made up. I believe they are revealed by God, not made up by men. I don’t care if you or anyone else believes that, but it is my right to believe it.
These questions are not unanswerable. They were answered by the Messengers of God.
That is true, so why can’t I believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe? Why try to change me? I am not trying to change you, I only state what I believe.
You are wrong that these experiences are all positive. Most are positive because most people led a good life. Some people didn’t live a good life and they report bad NDE experiences. These people even tie their experiences to the way they had been living their lives and the bad NDE experience helped them to change and become better people before they really die.
This might happen when people leave their body and almost die, but those people were not fully dead.
So you are going to base all your beliefs about the afterlife on people who had NDEs and were not even fully dead. As I said before, you want to believe that and that is why you have chosen to believe it. So if something else is true, you do not want to know about it.
What that boils down to is that you don’t want to know the truth if it contradicts what you want to believe. So if you died tomorrow you could die not knowing the truth. You close your mind to anything you don’t want to hear. That is a foolish way to live.
Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics
The great majority of near-death experiences (NDEs) reported publicly over the past four decades have been described as pleasant, even glorious. Almost unnoticed in the euphoria about them has been the sobering fact that not all NDEs are so affirming. Some are deeply disturbing.
Few people are forthcoming about such an event; they hide; they disappear when asked for information; if inpatient, they are likely to withdraw; they are under great stress. What do their physicians need to know to deal with these experiences?
Varieties of Distressing Near-Death Experiences
We have documented three types of distressing NDE: inverse, void, and hellish.1 The brief descriptions below illustrate the types. All examples are from the authors’ files unless otherwise indicated.
Inverse NDE
In some NDEs, features usually reported in other NDEs as pleasurable are perceived as hostile or threatening. A man thrown from his horse found himself floating at treetop height, watching emergency medical technicians working over a his body. “No! No! This isn’t right!” He screamed, “Put me back!” but they did not hear him. Next he was shooting through darkness toward a bright light, flashing past shadowy people who seemed to be deceased family members waiting. He was panic-stricken by the bizarre scenario and his inability to affect what was happening.
A woman in childbirth felt her spirit separate from her body and fly into space at tremendous speed, then saw a small ball of light rushing toward her: “It became bigger and bigger as it came toward me. I realized that we were on a collision course, and it terrified me. I saw the blinding white light come right to me and engulf me.”
A woman collapsed from hyperthermia and began re-experiencing her entire life: “I was filled with such sadness and experienced a great deal of depression.”
The Void NDE
An NDE of the “void” is an ontological encounter with a perceived vast emptiness, often a devastating scenario of aloneness, isolation, sometimes annihilation. A woman in childbirth found herself abruptly flying over the hospital and into deep, empty space. A group of circular entities informed her she never existed, that she had been allowed to imagine her life but it was a joke; she was not real. She argued with facts about her life and descriptions of Earth. “No,” they said, “none of that had ever been real; this is all there was.” She was left alone in space.2, pp. 1–5
Another woman in childbirth felt herself floating on water, but at a certain point, “It was no longer a peaceful feeling; it had become pure hell. I had become a light out in the heavens, and I was screaming, but no sound was going forth. It was worse than any nightmare. I was spinning around, and I realized that this was eternity; this was what forever was going to be…. I felt the aloneness, the emptiness of space, the vastness of the universe, except for me, a mere ball of light, screaming.”
A woman who attempted suicide felt herself sucked into a void: “I was being drawn into this dark abyss, or tunnel, or void…. I was not aware of my body as I know it…. I was terrified. I felt terror. I had expected nothingness; I expected the big sleep; I expected oblivion; and I found now that I was going to another plane … and it frightened me. I wanted nothingness, but this force was pulling me somewhere I didn’t want to go, but I never got beyond the fog.”
A man who was attacked by a hitchhiker felt himself rise out of his body: “I suddenly was surrounded by total blackness, floating in nothing but black space, with no up, no down, left, or right…. What seemed like an eternity went by. I fully lived it in this misery. I was only allowed to think and reflect.”
Hellish NDE
Overtly hellish experiences may be the least common type of distressing NDE. A man in heart failure felt himself falling into the depths of the Earth. At the bottom was a set of high, rusty gates, which he perceived as the gates of hell. Panic-stricken, he managed to scramble back up to daylight.
A woman was being escorted through a frighteningly desolate landscape and saw a group of wandering spirits. They looked lost and in pain, but her guide indicated she was not allowed to help them.
An atheistic university professor with an intestinal rupture experienced being maliciously pinched, then torn apart by malevolent beings.3
A woman who hemorrhaged from a ruptured Fallopian tube reported an NDE involving “horrific beings with gray gelatinous appendages grasping and clawing at me. The sounds of their guttural moaning and the indescribable stench still remain 41 years later. There was no benign Being of Light, no life video, nothing beautiful or pleasant.”
A woman who attempted suicide felt her body sliding downward in a cold, dark, watery environment: “When I reached the bottom, it resembled the entrance to a cave, with what looked like webs hanging…. I heard cries, wails, moans, and the gnashing of teeth. I saw these beings that resembled humans, with the shape of a head and body, but they were ugly and grotesque…. They were frightening and sounded like they were tormented, in agony.”
Summary
Like the better-publicized pleasurable NDEs, distressing near-death experiences are both fascinating and frustrating as altered states of consciousness. Because of the deeply rooted concept of hell in Western culture and its Christian association with eternal physical torment, they pose serious challenges to the individuals who must shape their lives around such a profoundly durable event, and to their families, friends, and physicians. In the absence of clear-cut clinical data and universal cultural views, physicians are advised that neutrality of opinion and careful listening are likely to constitute best professional practice for addressing these difficult near-death experiences.
Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics
dfnj
Well-Known Member
Nobody knows how God feels. God's being is beyond our comprehension.
Your Messengers are telling you not God.
No one has ever experienced God's justice. It's all made up delusional BS by your messengers. If you want justice you will only find it in a secular court of a law.
Every belief system is a straw man. Every belief system is built on a set of assumptions. It's just that some people think their assumptions are better than others. Everyone thinks their own personal dogma is the only "right" and "correct" one and people who disagree with it are "insane". This is the nature of human language.
Other than your opinion you have no proof God doles out anything. You are just assuming your messengers are speaking for God.
I doubt God doles out anything. There is no reason why God would care about your ideas of justice. God is perfect, whole, and complete. God would not have a need to dole out justice. God just is God regardless of your delusional projections of what you want God to be.
You certainly have the right to have your own OPINION.
You are the one who being manipulated in believing the messengers are speaking for your version of god.
Flipping my argument back on me is juvenile and lazy.
You are right. I do not have a positive opinion of your belief system. As I am sure you do not have a positive one of mine.
I see the World as being awesome! Life is great! People are awesome!
Sure, there are problems. The pandemic is a big problem. But I see heroism all around. I am touched, moved, and inspired by people sacrificing for others. I do not need some goofy scripture written by some goat herder 2000 years ago to know what is important in life.
Haha! I am not the one who is delusional here. Nature is not evil. Nature is indifferent. A virus is just a virus. It means nothing. People attribute meaning to every experience they have. If you think covad-19 is punishing everyone because people are evil or people are no believing the right way you are delusional. Attributing evil meaning to our experiences is superstitious non-sense.
You are just trying to live your life according to what the messengers are telling you to do.
You worship false idols.
If I hold an apple in my hand and we both look at the same time and I say "apple" there is no denying the existence of apples. Yes, you are absolutely right. My ideas of God are completely imaginary. For me, God is just a word. Since God is just a word it has meaning that only exists within my mind. This is what I mean when I say absolute authority comes from within. I have a different set of ideas than you about the nature of God. The difference between you and me is you are delusional in thinking your version of God exists like "apple" because your messengers are telling you what and how to think about God.
You are follower not a leader. It's okay. There are many ways of being. I purposely choose the content of my belief system. You are taking the content of what you believe from someone else. You are just fine the way you are! The good news is when you die you will go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty like everyone else regardless of your devotion to your messenger idols.
Whatever fills your needs. If you want to pretend God will do your bidding doling out justice then whatever floats your boat.
Is there any other kind? You tell me where I can walk up and shake hands with your God in reality.
You are so delusion if you can't see you are doing the exact same thing I am doing. So let me get this straight. You think your way of thinking is absolute truth because your messengers told you how to think. And you think everything I think is imaginary because I am not one of your idols.
Obviously, you've just proven the old adage, "One man's religion is another man's cult."
You like punishing. And you probably like being punished too. The way I see it is sometimes the only way people can figure out right from wrong is by learning it on their own.
Your version of god is a god of hate. My version of God does not dole out justice. The problem with justice is it is based on evil. What is evil and what is not evil is purely subjective. So which person in the World does God choose to get His version of what is evil and what is not evil. One man's insurgent is another mans freedom fighter. The executioner is murderer and so are soldiers but they are given a pass. What is evil and what is not evil is not so simple and absolute. You claim the messengers are telling you what is evil and who is worth hating or judging.
Since God is omnipotent and has no needs or desires I doubt very much God cares how we treat each other either now or in the afterlife. I have not seen God ever strike someone down with a lightening bolt because they robbed someone or committed a felony. The only justice I have ever seen in my life comes from a secular court of law.
I think God loves every aspect of His creation equally no matter what. My God of love saves everyone no matter what. This is because my God is strong enough not to be offended or bothered by people's behaviors which are a result of people having needs and desires because each of us is created with imperfections. God knows we have have imperfections. Everyone is allowed to go into the light after we die. There just is no other choice than to go into the light an experience God.
Your quibble of about my God of love not being "just" is just your petty desires of revenge and hate for people who do not behave the way you like. My God of love has no desire for justice because my God of love has no needs. This is what perfect, whole, and complete means.
I totally agree. You implying I don't think punishment is warranted by making this statement is a straw man argument. Yes, people should be punished and that is often the result in a secular court of law. If you want justice the only place you will get it is from a secular court of law. Claiming God is going to do your hard work of attaining justice for you is a pleasant thought but it is delusional. God has no need to believe the way you want Him to believe.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Any time now..... Christians have been saying that forever, and still no Jesus.
I believe Jesus has already returned and we are living in the End Times.
Nobody, except Christians, ever said there would be no more tribulations AFTER Jesus returned and there is no basis for that in the Bible.
I believe there is no evidence that Jesus has returned.
As a Christian I believe I have not lived forever for you to be saying that I have been saying it that long.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Any time now..... Christians have been saying that forever, and still no Jesus.
I believe Jesus has already returned and we are living in the End Times.
Nobody, except Christians, ever said there would be no more tribulations AFTER Jesus returned and there is no basis for that in the Bible.
I believe there are signs but whether they are the right ones remains to be seen.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
All religions are made up. You are totally making this up: "I believe they are revealed by God, not made up by men." You have no way of knowing what God is doing. No one knows. Anyone who tells you they are a messenger from God is delusional. Anyone who claims someone else is a messenger from God is delusional. God has no need to send any messengers. God has everything God needs.
This may be the funniest thing I've ever read on RF!
I have no wants. All I have is my choice. I choose to believe in a omnipotent God of unconditional love because I believe there is no other god worth my devotion.
You claim to know the true nature of God. But you do not know God's true nature and either do I. You choose to believe what someone else, the messengers, are tell you what is the true nature of God. You claim your god is a god of justice. I choose not to believe in lesser gods who have human values and human needs. My God just exists. My God's being is beyond human comprehension. For me, God just exists.
You are the one who is living a foolish life pretending your messengers are speaking for God. My truth is just as good as your truth.
Yes, I do close my mind to your delusions of projecting an anthropomorphic type God having your human values of justice.
Am I foolish, you have know way of knowing because you haven't died and then come back to tell us how not to be foolish. You are just as foolish if you think the way you believe is absolute truth.
I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternally Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practice or not practiced our religion. An omnipotent God has no need or desire not to save every soul. If you want to choose to worship a god of hate who makes choices about how people behave it is up to you. I choose differently because I think everyone is sacred and divine. Yes, people make bad choices. But if God wanted to really test people's morality he would have given us all omnipotent powers so we can define the list of choices we get to choose from. But he did not. So who are you to judge God for allowing evil to exist by having a creation with so many imperfections? I choose not to judge any part of God's creation as being anything more than just what it is. I choose not to judge God.
You are so easily manipulated! No agenda here: "Clinical social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp observed, “All the people I know who have had negative experiences have become Bible-based Christians"
I recently read "Living in a Mindful Universe" by Eben Alexander, MD. He was in a coma and brain dead an then came back. His books is about his experience. But there is nothing in his book that is evangelical.
Last summer I read the Tibetan Book of the Dead which describes people being tortured by demons of their own creation based on how one has lived one's life. But the book also claimed people had opportunities to go into the light at any time if they made peace with their own demons.
Nobody knows what happens after we die. This is why we have faith. People choose what they believe. I just choose differently than you do. I have no desire to see anyone suffer regardless of any bad decisions or behaviors as a result of someone's God given imperfections. I choose to only see the good in people. I choose to see everyone as being sacred and divine regardless of any results because of God given imperfections. I choose NOT to hold up a ruler of perfection to measure other people's imperfections so I can judge them. This is because I do not have hate in my heart. I am forgiving of other people because I know they are doing the best they can with their God given imperfections as I am doing.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that there is ample evidence that the Christ Spirit has returned.
You have not been saying it forever, but Christians have been saying it ever since Jesus died on the cross.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It can be seen right now if one knows their scriptures.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you quote that scripture?