Sin=natural

[Twilight Hue]

isn't it just natural to sin<>to get angry, jealous, hate, fornicate,etc????who here has NEVER been angry??or really hated someone,maybe just a little??who here has NEVER sinned?

What you say is true enough, however sin to me implies a manner of transgression against an outside source that supposedly sets a universal standard by way of qualifiers. I don't regard it that way, and would just regard our negative and vitriolic tendencies as being a natural and normal aspect of human nature.

 

[Blackheart]

What you say is true enough, however sin to me implies a manner of transgression against an outside source that supposedly sets a universal standard by way of qualifiers. I don't regard it that way, and would just regard our negative and vitriolic tendencies as being a natural and normal aspect of human nature.

Call me sick if you like but my natural tendancy is to kick people out of the way in the supermarket when theyre blocking the aisle like they are the only people in existance. I dont do this becasuse I know that it is wrong. Sin maybe natural but it doesnt make it right. Why do people always think that natural is good or even ok?? I hear so many people justify their use of cannabis by saying that its natural. Arsenic is natural so is poison ivy, earthquakes etc.

 

[Beta]

yes, doesn't everybody??we're programmed to sin, no?

Think you are mistaken there ! Man was not programmed to sin at all - Man was created with ' free Choice !!! Gen.2v16,17. Man had opportunity to go either way !
Had we been programmed to sin that is all we could do. How could we then ever choose the tree of Life ? We'd have had to be programmed another way as well.
Man was created ' NEUTRAL ' . We ignorantly chose the wrong way by allowing ourselves to be tempted.

 

[waitasec]

Think you are mistaken there ! Man was not programmed to sin at all - Man was created with ' free Choice !!! Gen.2v16,17. Man had opportunity to go either way !
Had we been programmed to sin that is all we could do. How could we then ever choose the tree of Life ? We'd have had to be programmed another way as well.
Man was created ' NEUTRAL ' . We ignorantly chose the wrong way by allowing ourselves to be tempted.

if adam did not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, when being tempted, how could he know he was being tempted?
it's a conundrum...it conflicts with the knowledge of not having knowledge... he couldn't have had that knowledge, he didn't eat the fruit yet.
good and evil could have been call glibber and glabber...how could he know what those words meant?

 

[Beta]

if adam did not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, when being tempted, how could he know he was being tempted?
it's a conundrum...it conflicts with the knowledge of not having knowledge... he couldn't have had that knowledge, he didn't eat the fruit yet.
good and evil could have been call glibber and glabber...how could he know what those words meant?

You are raising an interesting point that others have made before you. Obviously Adam (and Eve) did not have the knowledge that has been gained since - but they had INSTRUCTIONS of what NOT TO DO Gen. 2v16,17.
And since God is fair and just he would not have asked them to respond to these instructions had he known they COULD NOT deliver. In Gen.3v2,3 Eve even repeated what God had said - she (they) must have known what YES and NO meant. If we instruct a small child (without the capability to reason) not to do something dangerous does it first have to fully understand all the consequences involved in disobedience ? No , we expect it to learn in stages as the 'Mind' develops.

 

[PolyHedral]

You are raising an interesting point that others have made before you. Obviously Adam (and Eve) did not have the knowledge that has been gained since - but they had INSTRUCTIONS of what NOT TO DO Gen. 2v16,17.

But the serpent gave conflicting instructions, and that conflict couldn't be resolved non-arbitrarily without aforementioned knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Beta]

But the serpent gave conflicting instructions, and that conflict couldn't be resolved non-arbitrarily without aforementioned knowledge of good and evil.

Was the serpent their God , their Creator ???
Adam had been alive before Eve and had EXPERIENCE of GOD PRIOR to meeting the serpent (who was a created creature and not the Creator). Adam knew God ,that is why he was not as easily deceived as Eve. In fact Adam was not at all deceived - his temptation came from the woman Gen.3v12 whom he did not want to give up. Adam's temptation was purely physical , it was not a question of not having enough knowledge.
But underlying all this temptation and human weakness is a much more serious reason that has yet eluded man who is still in the period of deception. We should remember that God is working to a plan for mankind and He has never yet broken His Word .
So the world will just have to wait for the full truth to be revealed :yes:

 

[PolyHedral]

Was the serpent their God , their Creator ???

Irrelevant. The concept of "trust" doesn't exist yet, because the concept of "deceit" doesn't exist. They were given two equally valid but conflicting instructions, with no way to decide between them.

 

[Beta]

Irrelevant. The concept of "trust" doesn't exist yet, because the concept of "deceit" doesn't exist. They were given two equally valid but conflicting instructions, with no way to decide between them.

That is simply your opinion based on present-day understanding. You are putting more on the table than was offered to Adam and Eve. Moving away from the simple instructions you are complicating human understanding in favour of your argument.
Adam had known God and had experience of him and along with the instructions that should have sufficed for the purpose it was intended.
What do you mean - two equally valid instructions....the serpent did not give instructions but rather appealed to the woman's vanity with enticing words , wheedling and tempting - not in the least having her/their eternal well-being at heart. It was a cheap and seductive way of destroying mankind ....which they fell for in ignorance and personal desire causing consequent pain and suffering.
What this brought to the surface was the weakness of man which could eventually only be corrected by experience we have undergone these past 6000 years.We are now on the verge of having exposed our final failures brought on by pride and disobedience.
The human experience is for a purpose that will soon become clear.

 

[PolyHedral]

the serpent did not give instructions but rather appealed to the woman's vanity with enticing words , wheedling and tempting - not in the least having her/their eternal well-being at heart. It was a cheap and seductive way of destroying mankind ....which they fell for in ignorance and personal desire causing consequent pain and suffering.

There isn't anything to fall for, because the idea that the serpent could possibly be lying doesn't exist. Eve treats the serpent as acting in good faith, because that's the only available option. The serpent provides an understandable reason, however dubious, for eating the fruit; God provides no reason to obey him other than "You'll die." Since dying is an unknown concept at this point, and so carries almost influence, why is it at all surprising that Eve disobeys?

 

[Beta]

There isn't anything to fall for, because the idea that the serpent could possibly be lying doesn't exist. Eve treats the serpent as acting in good faith, because that's the only available option. The serpent provides an understandable reason, however dubious, for eating the fruit; God provides no reason to obey him other than "You'll die." Since dying is an unknown concept at this point, and so carries almost influence, why is it at all surprising that Eve disobeys?

Fine. Based on their own (and your own) reasoning they disobeyed assuming they knew better than following God's instructions.
God lets mankind have their own way - so why are they now complaining ??? They want God to do things their way ?
It's not going to happen !:no:

 

[PolyHedral]

There is a button in front of you. You do not know why it's there, and no information is available concerning what it does. There are also two people, A and B. A tells you that pressing the button will let you claim 50c. B tells you that you shouldn't press the button, but his explanation why doesn't make sense. They are both acting in your interest. Do you press the button?

 

[Beta]

There is a button in front of you. You do not know why it's there, and no information is available concerning what it does. There are also two people, A and B. A tells you that pressing the button will let you claim 50c. B tells you that you shouldn't press the button, but his explanation why doesn't make sense. They are both acting in your interest. Do you press the button?

So whose decision is it in the end ? Is it not the person pressing the button ? Why are you then blaming the one who told you not to do it when it turns out bad ? Had it turned out good you would take credit to yourself but when bad it's someone else's fault ???
You keep making the mistake of ascribing sensible reasoning to Adam & Eve. How do you explain death and mayhem to people without knowledge ? Apparently they had enough savvy to differentiate between yes and no and could have obeyed.
But applying their own reasoning got man into trouble. This still holds good today and even after 6000 years of negative experience man has not learned to obey and persists in his own mind.
There are so many scriptures telling man to turn from his own ways and take on the Mind of Jesus ..who being the Son of God learned obedience Heb.5v8 and we in turn should learn to obey Him v9.
Have His Words as little effect on us today( Lk.6v46) as God's Words had on Adam and Eve (Gen.2v16,17) ? Seems like man refuses to understand God and would rather blame and accuse Him of not doing enough .

 

[BIG D]

Think you are mistaken there ! Man was not programmed to sin at all - Man was created with ' free Choice !!! Gen.2v16,17. Man had opportunity to go either way !
Had we been programmed to sin that is all we could do. How could we then ever choose the tree of Life ? We'd have had to be programmed another way as well.
Man was created ' NEUTRAL ' . We ignorantly chose the wrong way by allowing ourselves to be tempted.

free will is a whole other subject---if we do have free will, how come men commit murder at a 87% rate compared to women??..87% is too high for anyone to argue that men have just as much free will as women to resist the sin of murder

 

[waitasec]

You are raising an interesting point that others have made before you. Obviously Adam (and Eve) did not have the knowledge that has been gained since - but they had INSTRUCTIONS of what NOT TO DO Gen. 2v16,17.

you realize god did not intend for us to have free will, if that were true.
another thing, how were they to know disobedience was wrong?

And since God is fair and just he would not have asked them to respond to these instructions had he known they COULD NOT deliver. In Gen.3v2,3 Eve even repeated what God had said - she (they) must have known what YES and NO meant. If we instruct a small child (without the capability to reason) not to do something dangerous does it first have to fully understand all the consequences involved in disobedience ? No , we expect it to learn in stages as the 'Mind' develops.

well that's essentially what this story says...god expected adam and eve to understand what obeying meant. you obey because you understand the consequences, how could adam and eve know what death meant?

and if god were fair, why did he command eve to be a subordinate to adam?

 

[waitasec]

So whose decision is it in the end ? Is it not the person pressing the button ? Why are you then blaming the one who told you not to do it when it turns out bad ? Had it turned out good you would take credit to yourself but when bad it's someone else's fault ???
You keep making the mistake of ascribing sensible reasoning to Adam & Eve. How do you explain death and mayhem to people without knowledge ? Apparently they had enough savvy to differentiate between yes and no and could have obeyed.
But applying their own reasoning got man into trouble. This still holds good today and even after 6000 years of negative experience man has not learned to obey and persists in his own mind.
There are so many scriptures telling man to turn from his own ways and take on the Mind of Jesus ..who being the Son of God learned obedience Heb.5v8 and we in turn should learn to obey Him v9.
Have His Words as little effect on us today( Lk.6v46) as God's Words had on Adam and Eve (Gen.2v16,17) ? Seems like man refuses to understand God and would rather blame and accuse Him of not doing enough .

this story is not meant to be taken literally...there are too many holes, too many disclaimers and too many inconsistencies BECAUSE we are ascribing sensible reasoning to Adam & Eve. gee why in the world would we do that?

 

[PolyHedral]

So whose decision is it in the end ? Is it not the person pressing the button ? Why are you then blaming the one who told you not to do it when it turns out bad ? Had it turned out good you would take credit to yourself but when bad it's someone else's fault ???

It's not Adam's, and it's not Eve's. Informed decision-making can't be given if the person is drunk, too immature, or otherwise incapacitated, and I'm fairly sure that "inability to conceive of the negative consequences" counts as incapacitated decision-making.

You keep making the mistake of ascribing sensible reasoning to Adam & Eve.

...This is a mistake? Weren't you saying earlier that Adam and Eve weren't stupid? (Or was that another thread?)

How do you explain death and mayhem to people without knowledge ? Apparently they had enough savvy to differentiate between yes and no and could have obeyed.

This is an all-powerful God we're talking about. He could explain quantum physics to them if He so wished! God is an infinitely good communicator, ergo any failure to understand lies with Him, rather than them.

But applying their own reasoning got man into trouble. This still holds good today and even after 6000 years of negative experience man has not learned to obey and persists in his own mind.

But God hasn't actually provided any reason to obey Him, other than what appears to be a bribe. After all, if He truly loved us, Hell would be a nonsensical concept.

Have His Words as little effect on us today( Lk.6v46) as God's Words had on Adam and Eve (Gen.2v16,17) ? Seems like man refuses to understand God and would rather blame and accuse Him of not doing enough .

Infinitely good communicator, remember? If God actually wishes to be understood, He will be understood. No exceptions.

 

[Beta]

free will is a whole other subject---if we do have free will, how come men commit murder at a 87% rate compared to women??..87% is too high for anyone to argue that men have just as much free will as women to resist the sin of murder

'Free Will' is relevant to this topic.
No one is arguing about who is more sinful. We are all sinners whether we commit ONE sin or MANY. We should learn not to commit any that is the point being made in scripture. :yes:

 

[paolops181]

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
-1Jhn1:10

 

[Beta]

It's not Adam's, and it's not Eve's. Informed decision-making can't be given if the person is drunk, too immature, or otherwise incapacitated, and I'm fairly sure that "inability to conceive of the negative consequences" counts as incapacitated decision-making.
...This is a mistake? Weren't you saying earlier that Adam and Eve weren't stupid? (Or was that another thread?)
This is an all-powerful God we're talking about. He could explain quantum physics to them if He so wished! God is an infinitely good communicator, ergo any failure to understand lies with Him, rather than them.
But God hasn't actually provided any reason to obey Him, other than what appears to be a bribe. After all, if He truly loved us, Hell would be a nonsensical concept.
Infinitely good communicator, remember? If God actually wishes to be understood, He will be understood. No exceptions.

Fact is we could argue about A&E night and day and never agree.Why don't we bring this foreward to our time today ?
Do YOU today understand God any better than they did or are you still blaming Him for all YOUR mistakes ? After all, 6000 years of human experience should have enlightened us somewhat ???