Sin=natural

[Blackheart]

it was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil wasn't it?

this is not a literal story, logical reasoning would point to that assessment...



surely, how? because you have this knowledge she did too?


well lets see here, adam couldn't have explained either...
so if god explained it to her why are we still in the dark?

Im not in the dark. I think that both Adam and Eve knew the consequences otherwise we wouldnt be told that God told them what it would lead to. Somehow the assumption is being made that God didnt have the sense to explain his threat. If they didnt know what death is then the most intelligent being in the universe would of guessed that I reckon and made sure that they understood. Come on...

 

[Blackheart]

it was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil wasn't it?

this is not a literal story, logical reasoning would point to that assessment...



surely, how? because you have this knowledge she did too?


well lets see here, adam couldn't have explained either...
so if god explained it to her why are we still in the dark?

Why do you think the story shouldnt be taken literally?

 

[waitasec]

Im not in the dark. I think that both Adam and Eve knew the consequences otherwise we wouldnt be told that God told them what it would lead to. Somehow the assumption is being made that God didnt have the sense to explain his threat. If they didnt know what death is then the most intelligent being in the universe would of guessed that I reckon and made sure that they understood. Come on...

Why do you think the story shouldnt be taken literally?

for the reason i highlighted. how could they know if they hadn't eaten the fruit yet? and it seems as though free will is what god doesn't want for us, otherwise why make it a set up for failure?

from what i understand, the jewish tradition thinks this to be understood as humanity being lifted up for gaining knowledge. and it also explains why we die.
in a way, metaphorically speaking , it make sense. because once we have knowledge our innocence is dies.

 

[waitasec]

Why do you think the story shouldnt be taken literally?

can i ask you this?
is it at all possible that you can understand the reason i would have this opinion? in other words, is the opinion i hold a reasonable one from your point of view?
and would it be fair to say that the reason you believe otherwise is because of your faith?

penumbra presented an excellent question in another thread...

Why would relying on error-prone methodology be considered a virtue, or worth a blessing?

This is a functional problem at the core of many religions.

this was in response to doubting thomas
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”"

Why on earth would the people other than Thomas be the ones to be blessed?

 

[Beta]

cause it's says so...:areyoucra
gen 2:You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.
it's a paradoxical...
ah, what about the middle east, what about the freedom to marry your same sex partner? if that's that an indication of how religion condones tyrannical ideals, i don't know what else does.
so you would call a skeptic a trouble maker?
being skeptical is a sign of freedom the exact ideal the god of the bible would have you be afraid of.

gen.2...that's how you see it because it is your way of negating God.
And.. God is not into religions my friend ..that is a human affair. God did give man 6 days (6000 years) in which to do his own thing and whatever man desires man does...whether or not God approves...no matter where in the world. It is pointless blaming God for what man does or does not do when they disregard him.
In heaven or his kingdom we do as he says and those who disagree will not be in it ...simple as that - man has a choice.

 

[BIG D]

So what is your point?

then why does the church say it's wrong and we have to repent??....

 

[Danmac]

then why does the church say it's wrong and we have to repent??....

Sin can be defined as any action that harms, injures, cheats, or mistreats another individual in any way shape or from. The Bible commands us to love.....

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

because love is the remedy for the harmful mistreatment of others, which is the result of selfish ambition, etc.....

Romans 13:10 Love inflicts no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Human nature is bent towards self, so the command is to repent from our selfish nature, and begin to love as the bible defines it. This is to cease from sin.....

1John 2:10 He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of sinning in him.

If every individual obeyed the golden rule, and loved his or her neighbor as themselves, there would be perfect world peace. This is the command of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sin can be defined as any action that harms, injures, cheats, or mistreats another individual in any way shape or from. The Bible commands us to love.....

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

because love is the remedy for the harmful mistreatment of others, which is the result of selfish ambition, etc.....

Romans 13:10 Love inflicts no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Human nature is bent towards self, so the command is to repent from our selfish nature, and begin to love as the bible defines it. This is to cease from sin.....

1John 2:10 He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of sinning in him.

If every individual obeyed the golden rule, and loved his or her neighbor as themselves, there would be perfect world peace. This is the command of God.

I'm not a follower of your bible or your god so "sin" does not exist.

The "golden rule" as you call it is not a new concept and was written long before appearing in the bible so whether I follow it or not it has nothing to do with your god.

 

[near.lucemferre]

Sin is dependant on the Greater Good and Greater Evil; not the simple Good and Evil. It's a sin to cut down a tree, if you believe in simple morality (Good and Evil); yet, if you believe in the Greater Good, then whence cutting down a tree, if it's to build a house to support your people, then you've done it in light of surviving, as without it, you may die or become sick.

If someone kills a loved one (assuming your loved one was good-willed), and you become angry, you're not sinning, for becoming angry through an Evil action is naturally a Good thing to do. If you found it funny or didn't care you would be sinning.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sin is dependant on the Greater Good and Greater Evil; not the simple Good and Evil. It's a sin to cut down a tree, if you believe in simple morality (Good and Evil); yet, if you believe in the Greater Good, then whence cutting down a tree, if it's to build a house to support your people, then you've done it in light of surviving, as without it, you may die or become sick.

If someone kills a loved one (assuming your loved one was good-willed), and you become angry, you're not sinning, for becoming angry through an Evil action is naturally a Good thing to do. If you found it funny or didn't care you would be sinning.

If "i believed in your god" this might apply but since I don't I fail to see how your moral view pertains to my life. Sin is a subjective word contingent on one believing in a particular god. Since I have no belief then I have not sinned.

 

[near.lucemferre]

If "i believed in your god" this might apply but since I don't I fail to see how your moral view pertains to my life. Sin is a subjective word contingent on one believing in a particular god. Since I have no belief then I have not sinned.

True, but you're a sinner through my eyes.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I think there is a problem in thinking that the Christian idea of sin is related to the philosophical view of morality. One can be highly moral without having the concept of sin. Sin is, according to the Greek and the Bible, is to miss the mark of perfection set by God for humankind. Morality is subjective, and is defined by the particular culture, society, laws, and even individuals. Sin is avoiding certain things that god says to avoid, or doing certain things that god says to do. Morality is something that people do just because it's the right thing to do. Sin, or god's laws, are external, morality is internal.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

True, but you're a sinner through my eyes.

It's irrelevant. At least irrelevant to me. My life is not defined by your view of my life. This is why sin does not apply to me. I don't subscribe to your moral view no more than you subscribe to the moral view of Muslims (provided if you're not a Muslim), or Jews (provided you're not a Jew) or Christians (provided you're not a Christian).....Labeling some one as a sinner is subjective. The view of sin is different amongst the Abrahamic religions.

 

[PolyHedral]

There you go again thinking God should think like you.

My conclusion is a rational one. (If it isn't, please point out how.) What additional information would God have that changes it?

Sorry but do you really think she didnt know what God meant when he explained the consequences of eating from the tree? Do you really think that she was that stupid? Even if she had never witnessed the death of an insect or the death of a plant surely she would know that death would be the end of what she knew as life. If not do you not think that maybe God or Adam may have explained it to her? Doesnt make sense to me.

I thought it was a fairly common idea that Eden contained no death ever? It'd be equivalent to me saying that you should not press my magic button, otherwise your unfavorable eigenstates will collapse. You won't understand me, and so won't place any weight on what I asked you to do.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I thought it was a fairly common idea that Eden contained no death ever?

Some Christian groups believe that physical death was still part of Eden, hence the need for the tree of life. The idea is that eating from the tree of knowledge would produce spiritual death, not only from the ability gained from eating from the tree, but also by denying god's law.

 

[waitasec]

gen.2...that's how you see it because it is your way of negating God.

how about this, can you see why i would have this opinion?

And.. God is not into religions my friend ..that is a human affair

absolutely, however religion gets it'd ideals from flawed ancient texts...which ultimately labels nature.

God did give man 6 days (6000 years) in which to do his own thing and whatever man desires man does...whether or not God approves...no matter where in the world.

scientific evidence says other wise

It is pointless blaming God for what man does or does not do when they disregard him.

who's blaming god...?
it's hard for me to blame something that doesn't exist.

In heaven or his kingdom we do as he says and those who disagree will not be in it ...simple as that - man has a choice.

you just contradicted yourself...
in heaven or his kingdom we do as he says...man has a choice

 

[Beta]

in heaven or his kingdom we do as he says...man has a choice[/I]

No contradiction - we choose to do as God says because we agree with him

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

So, you have to do what god says, or else? How is that a choice?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So, you have to do what god says, or else? How is that a choice?

It's a paradoxical question with paradoxical answers...:sorry1:

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

To me, an all loving and all forgiving god would not have to threaten someone with eternal punishment, but, as we are supposed to be his children, his creation, would love us and forgive us regardless. Faith and obedience would just be brownie points, so to speak.