So was God wrong?

[Autodidact]

I said that they are accurately part of the stories.

We use the Tradition, because it gives us perspective. Ours is not the only culture. Ours is not the only time available to the human family. Why do we learn history in school? Should we not simply concentrate on what's happening right now?

That -- in a manner of speaking -- is what Jesus said. When asked the most important commandment, Jesus quoted the Shema and added, "...love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the prophets depend upon these two."

But in this case we're not just studying it, we're seeking a source of moral guidance. If these books are full of commandments to do evil, and we have to use our own moral sense to figure out which are good and which evil, it seems to me it would be clearer, not to mention simpler, just to rely on our own moral sense.

At a minimum, I'm sure you'll agree that many, if not most people who do seek moral guidance from these books come away with the "wrong" understanding. They think these commandments actually apply to them, or that God is a god of hatred and vengeance, as He is portrayed, or that what God cares about is what mode of sexual expression they choose, not whether it is loving or not. It seems to me that people would do a better job of figuring out ethics based on compassion and sense, rather than these ancient collections of taboos.

I mean, yes, sure, read them for culture and history, no problem. But for moral guidance? At best, confusing, at worst, killing innocent people.

 

[Autodidact]

What religion "justifies" this behavior? Judaism and Xy use the Bible. Neither religion justifies this behavior.

It not only justified, it commands it. And for most of Christian history, most Christians lived it, slaughtering non-christians by the thousands.

 

[sojourner]

But in this case we're not just studying it, we're seeking a source of moral guidance. If these books are full of commandments to do evil, and we have to use our own moral sense to figure out which are good and which evil, it seems to me it would be clearer, not to mention simpler, just to rely on our own moral sense.

At a minimum, I'm sure you'll agree that many, if not most people who do seek moral guidance from these books come away with the "wrong" understanding. They think these commandments actually apply to them, or that God is a god of hatred and vengeance, as He is portrayed, or that what God cares about is what mode of sexual expression they choose, not whether it is loving or not. It seems to me that people would do a better job of figuring out ethics based on compassion and sense, rather than these ancient collections of taboos.

I mean, yes, sure, read them for culture and history, no problem. But for moral guidance? At best, confusing, at worst, killing innocent people.

The Bible was never meant to be a moral compass. That the popular front takes it that way does not change what it is.

 

[sojourner]

It not only justified, it commands it. And for most of Christian history, most Christians lived it, slaughtering non-christians by the thousands.

Hold on, there, Cochise! Neither Xy or Judaism justify genocide.

Additionally, your' next statement is nothing more than hyperbole. Xians did not slaughter non-Christians for "most of Christian history." In the scope of 2000 years, there has been relatively little slaughter on the part of Xians.

 

[Autodidact]

The Bible was never meant to be a moral compass. That the popular front takes it that way does not change what it is.

I must say that's a very idiosyncratic approach to Biblical morality, but if it works for you, sounds like at least it won't do any harm. It's useless as history, inappropriate as science, never meant to provide moral guidance. What do you use it for, literature?

 

[Autodidact]

Hold on, there, Cochise! Neither Xy or Judaism justify genocide.

Additionally, your' next statement is nothing more than hyperbole. Xians did not slaughter non-Christians for "most of Christian history." In the scope of 2000 years, there has been relatively little slaughter on the part of Xians.

I would argue with your history, but we're getting pretty OT. As a Jew, my primary preconception of Christians and Christianity is, "Someone who may or may not want to kill me." That has been the experience of Jews in Europe since Christianity arrived there.

 

[sojourner]

I must say that's a very idiosyncratic approach to Biblical morality, but if it works for you, sounds like at least it won't do any harm. It's useless as history, inappropriate as science, never meant to provide moral guidance. What do you use it for, literature?

It's a record of our relationship with God.

 

[Autodidact]

It's a record of our relationship with God.

But apparently a wildly inaccurate record?

 

[waitasec]

But this is mediated to us through human agency -- and human agency with a particular cultural agenda.

since the story isn't a factual account, using here as an example is not helpful. Remember that we're dealing with a cultural mind set in which the individual is relatively subordinate to the community. The community was found unrighteous. Therefore, everyone who was part of that community suffered the consequences. There were no "innocents." That being said, that's not our cultural climate today. One can't impose one's cultural climate onto another culture. Things have to be taken as they are. For that culture, wiping out a city would have been reasonable.

Including children? :sarcastic

Yup. We may not agree with it, but that's the way it was.

i wonder why we do not agree with it but religion somehow justifies this behavior...
would you agree this way of thinking perpetuated injustices throughout history?

What religion "justifies" this behavior? Judaism and Xy use the Bible. Neither religion justifies this behavior.

why did you say "but that's the way it was"?
it justifies the behavior of vengeance, retribution and tyranny...

if the bible is an account with our relationship with god, then it is an account full of contradictions on gods end...not ours, we are the ones being toyed with, but you seem to be ok with that ideal.... :sorry1:

 

[sojourner]

But apparently a wildly inaccurate record?

It's not an inaccurate record. It accurately reflects how various groups have felt about God and their place in the world.

 

[sojourner]

why did you say "but that's the way it was"?
it justifies the behavior of vengeance, retribution and tyranny...

"It" refers to the culture extant at the time the stories were generated. Neither Judaism nor Xy were extant then.

if the bible is an account with our relationship with god, then it is an account full of contradictions on gods end...not ours, we are the ones being toyed with, but you seem to be ok with that ideal...

How can it be full of contradictions on God's end? God didn't write it. People did.

 

[ellenjanuary]

"It" refers to the culture extant at the time the stories were generated. Neither Judaism nor Xy were extant then.

How can it be full of contradictions on God's end? God didn't write it. People did.

So how can god be wrong? The Bible is but one lens of resolution to know of god. If this is not the instrument for one's resolution, one can always find (or make) another.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Is it me, or was it forgotten that the Bible was written with the inspiration of God, not by god, but by man?

 

[waitasec]

"It" refers to the culture extant at the time the stories were generated. Neither Judaism nor Xy were extant then.

so again i ask, would you agree this way of thinking perpetuated injustices throughout history, given the fact people throughout history took this bible as the word of god?

How can it be full of contradictions on God's end? God didn't write it. People did.

exactly...

 

[Orias]

Is it me, or was it forgotten that the Bible was written with the inspiration of God, not by god, but by man?

Christians can't seem to come to a consensus on that either, I don't why people even try :no:

 

[waitasec]

Is it me, or was it forgotten that the Bible was written with the inspiration of God, not by god, but by man?

i would say the inspiration of god was conjured up by man...

 

[horizon_mj1]

Christians can't seem to come to a consensus on that either, I don't why people even try :no:

Is it that the actual truth and undeniable facts are too easily contorted for people's own reasons? No wander I try as hard as I can to not be a part of the ignorance.

 

[horizon_mj1]

i would say the inspiration of god was conjured up by man...

This is something to needs to be considered as well.:angel2:

 

[Orias]

Is it that the actual truth and undeniable facts are too easily contorted for people's own reasons? No wander I try as hard as I can to not be a part of the ignorance.

It's more so that people accept whatever is imposed upon them, without question and reason to make sense of it.

People argue what they are told, without even having a complete understanding of it.

 

[horizon_mj1]

It's more so that people accept whatever is imposed upon them, without question and reason to make sense of it.

People argue what they are told, without even having a complete understanding of it.

Exactly. If a thought was put into doing a simple investigation before making a logical decision, people would be further ahead.