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So was God wrong?

Jacksnyte

Reverend
Christian "missionaries" are still playing a major role in destroying indigenous cultures around the world today. Has anyone here actually ever been to the part of a reservation that people actually live on(not just the shops and casinos)? I recommend you read
 

Keezov

New Member
Genocide would be more appropriate.
"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". (from Wikipedia)

Converting people compulsively to other religion or foreign way of life isn't called "genocide".
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". (from Wikipedia)

Converting people compulsively to other religion or foreign way of life isn't called "genocide".

:facepalm:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Manifest Destiny was always a general notion rather than a specific policy. The term combined a belief in expansionism with other popular ideas of the era, including American exceptionalism, Romantic nationalism, and a belief in the natural superiority of people of English descent (at the time often called the "Anglo-Saxon race"). While many writers focus primarily upon American expansionism when discussing Manifest Destiny, others see in the term a broader expression of a belief in America's "mission" in the world, which has meant different things to different people over the years. This variety of possible meanings was summed up by Ernest Lee Tuveson, who wrote:

A vast complex of ideas, policies, and actions is comprehended under the phrase 'Manifest Destiny'. They are not, as we should expect, all compatible, nor do they come from any one source.[5]


John L. O'Sullivan, sketched in 1874, was an influential columnist as a young man, but is now generally remembered only for his use of the phrase "Manifest Destiny" to advocate the annexation of Texas and Oregon.
Journalist John L. O'Sullivan, an influential advocate for the Democratic Party, wrote an article in 1839 which, while not using the term "Manifest Destiny", did predict a "divine destiny" for the United States based upon values such as equality, rights of conscience, and personal enfranchisement-- "to establish on earth the moral dignity and salvation of man". This destiny was not explicitly territorial, but O'Sullivan predicted that the United States would be one of a "Union of many Republics" sharing those values.[6]
Six years later O'Sullivan wrote another essay which first used the phrase Manifest Destiny. In 1845, he published a piece entitled Annexation in the Democratic Review,[7] in which he urged the U.S. to annex the Republic of Texas, not only because Texas desired this, but because it was "our manifest destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence for the free development of our yearly multiplying millions".[8] Amid much controversy, Texas was annexed shortly thereafter, but O'Sullivan's first usage of the phrase "Manifest Destiny" attracted little attention.[9]
O'Sullivan's second use of the phrase became extremely influential. On December 27, 1845 in his newspaper the New York Morning News, O'Sullivan addressed the ongoing boundary dispute with the United Kingdom in the Oregon Country. O'Sullivan argued that the United States had the right to claim "the whole of Oregon":
And that claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the continent which Providence has given us for the development of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government entrusted to us.[10]
That is, O'Sullivan believed that Providence had given the United States a mission to spread republican democracy ("the great experiment of liberty") throughout North America. Because Britain would not use Oregon for the purposes of spreading democracy, thought O'Sullivan, British claims to the territory should be overruled. O'Sullivan believed that Manifest Destiny was a moral ideal (a "higher law") that superseded other considerations.[11]

Manifest Destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In theology, divine providence, or simply providence, is God's activity in the world. By implication, it is also a title of God. A distinction is usually made between "general providence" which refers to God's continuous upholding the existence and natural order of the universe, and "special providence" which refers to God's extraordinary intervention in the life of people.[1]

Divine providence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". (from Wikipedia)

Converting people compulsively to other religion or foreign way of life isn't called "genocide".

Actually, it is. Don't forget the rest of your definition.
 

Jacksnyte

Reverend
Actually, it is. Don't forget the rest of your definition.

I agree with you, Orias, Destroying one's culture isn't genocide, but systematically wiping out entire populations (enough people over 3-400 years to make the Nazi holocaust pale in comparison!), torturing, maiming, and enslaving, I would say equate to genocide!
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
I agree with you, Orias, Destroying one's culture isn't genocide, but systematically wiping out entire populations (enough people over 3-400 years to make the Nazi holocaust pale in comparison!), torturing, maiming, and enslaving, I would say equate to genocide!

I remember going over this exact scenario in sociology.

You nailed it right on the head ;)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I was thinking in particular of the Spanish priests who traveled with the conquistadors, held up a Bible in front of a group of Indians who spoke no Spanish, asked them if they accepted it and their savior, and when they failed to respond, gave the commander permission to slaughter them.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
I was thinking in particular of the Spanish priests who traveled with the conquistadors, held up a Bible in front of a group of Indians who spoke no Spanish, asked them if they accepted it and their savior, and when they failed to respond, gave the commander permission to slaughter them.


Oh yes, lets not forget the slaughter and converstion of the Norse Pagans either.

I think your example is the result of Montezuma's revenge. Ha, funny paradoxes ;)
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Neither the religious texts, nor the Church Fathers, nor other Tradition discusses Manifest Destiny. If Manifest Destiny plagiarizes Biblical tenet, that's not Christianity's fault -- any more than Hitler's pure race policy is Xy's fault.:facepalm:
Know them by their fruit. to believe in a certain type of Christian doctrine means to believe in Manifest Destiny. to believe another doctrine means to be a different kind of Christian.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I often hear Christians say that the horrors of the Old Testament were from the Old Testament and the New Testament is a New Covenant with Gods people as if that somehow justifies the atrocities of the Old Testament.

My question is do you think that murdering someone by stoning for being, Gay, a witch, working on the sabbath, being part of another belief system, etc is acceptable and just? If not then are you saying that God was "wrong" at one point? If God was once wrong and is also supposed to be perfect then how should I as an observer take this?

God is never unjust or unrighteous. The Law He gave to Moses was righteous and good. The nation of Israel made a solemn agreement or covenant to do what God required of them. His judicial decisions and laws were for the benefit of all his people, including laws that required execution of evil people. As Sovereign God, Jehovah has the right to decide what is good and what is bad, and as the Creator, has the right to take back the life he gives from those who do evil. This hasn't changed. Most people ignore the part of John 3:16 that says; "in order that everyone exercising faith in [Christ] will not be destroyed." From the moment we are conceived, we are under sentence of death. (Romans 5:12) The life we enjoy is because of God's mercy and his love. Rather than criticize the Creator, we do well to learn what he requires of us. (John 17:3)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
European Christians claimed that it was God's will that they conquer these lands and subjugate these people in the name of Christendom. Regardless of whether it is scripturally based, it was definitely a christian-based idea.
What they claim may or may not have anything to do with Xy. Charles Manson's activities, using your definitive criterion here, were "Christian-based," too, which is obviously incorrect.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes, but why are Jews more important than Choctaw, Jains, Japanese or Celts?
They're not. But you need to remember that spiritual story is, in part, cultural story. And you further need to remember that the Bible is full of the stories of a wide diversity of cultures: Babylonian, Assyrian, Akkadian, Canaanite, Greek, Hebrew. Those who wrote and compiled the stories were unaware of the cultures of the Choctaws, Jains, Japanese and Celts.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No, only for the history of Christianity right up until secular governments reined it in.
Yeah, but again, in the 2000 year history of Xy, we're talking about a relatively short pd. of time of oppressive activity that was specifically Xian.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In reality, the destruction of the peoples of the Americas was accomplished by Christian priests who travelled with the conquistadors and played an important role in their destruction.
In reality, that wasn't part of Manifest Destiny.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Know them by their fruit. to believe in a certain type of Christian doctrine means to believe in Manifest Destiny. to believe another doctrine means to be a different kind of Christian.
But again, the way in which that doctrine is plied is not Xian action.
 

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
God is never unjust or unrighteous. The Law He gave to Moses was righteous and good. The nation of Israel made a solemn agreement or covenant to do what God required of them. His judicial decisions and laws were for the benefit of all his people, including laws that required execution of evil people. As Sovereign God, Jehovah has the right to decide what is good and what is bad, and as the Creator, has the right to take back the life he gives from those who do evil. This hasn't changed. Most people ignore the part of John 3:16 that says; "in order that everyone exercising faith in [Christ] will not be destroyed." From the moment we are conceived, we are under sentence of death. (Romans 5:12) The life we enjoy is because of God's mercy and his love. Rather than criticize the Creator, we do well to learn what he requires of us. (John 17:3)
God would never ask humanity to do what He Himself can do.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
God is never unjust or unrighteous. The Law He gave to Moses was righteous and good. The nation of Israel made a solemn agreement or covenant to do what God required of them. His judicial decisions and laws were for the benefit of all his people, including laws that required execution of evil people. As Sovereign God, Jehovah has the right to decide what is good and what is bad, and as the Creator, has the right to take back the life he gives from those who do evil. This hasn't changed. Most people ignore the part of John 3:16 that says; "in order that everyone exercising faith in [Christ] will not be destroyed." From the moment we are conceived, we are under sentence of death. (Romans 5:12) The life we enjoy is because of God's mercy and his love. Rather than criticize the Creator, we do well to learn what he requires of us. (John 17:3)

So for you, killing babies is righteous and just?
 
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