So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

[savagewind]

You can see them on your User CP.

Yes I can. So, complaining gets me knowing something. That's a good thing.

But one frubal I begged for so I think it doesn't count. That makes three. Which brings me right back to topic. What's so great about Christian Heaven? It is a place where all the other souls appreciate me. And I appreciate all the other souls there.

 

[savagewind]

.....so in heaven there is either not Hitler OR not me. Please note I am not the one to first mention Hitler. I read that the Thief mentioned him first. And this is me responding to his post.

Picture yourself as Hitler....yes you can.
You make it through the gate and are escorted all around heaven.

Later that evening, you are invited to supper...with 'thirteen' others.
As you dip your bread in the bowl, a Carpenter is doing likewise.
You turn to use another bowl...and Judas is doing so as well.


I would never put Judas in the same class as Hitler. Judas was weak for money (like just about every other person in the world). But Hitler was greedy for power and a very bad man. Judas delivered up ONE man who was delivered up regardless of what Judas did or didn't do. Hitler delivered up millions through pain and suffering for NO good reason and caused MORE of a turning away from God than would have been had he never been born. It is my opinion that Judas never stumbled anyone, but I an't know that for sure. Hitler and those with him stumbled a world imo.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, according to you, is David wrong about the Earth being bequeathed to the meek? How do you know it won't be so? What is your evidence please?

i see you like to edit arguments to make a moot point...
lets fix this shall we?
according to the post i responded to

The earth is not temporary according to Gods word---

the psalmist was absolutely wrong...
i'll give you a hint....


andromeda

 

[Thief]

.....so in heaven there is either not Hitler OR not me. Please note I am not the one to first mention Hitler. I read that the Thief mentioned him first. And this is me responding to his post.

Picture yourself as Hitler....yes you can.
You make it through the gate and are escorted all around heaven.

Later that evening, you are invited to supper...with 'thirteen' others.
As you dip your bread in the bowl, a Carpenter is doing likewise.
You turn to use another bowl...and Judas is doing so as well.


I would never put Judas in the same class as Hitler. Judas was weak for money (like just about every other person in the world). But Hitler was greedy for power and a very bad man. Judas delivered up ONE man who was delivered up regardless of what Judas did or didn't do. Hitler delivered up millions through pain and suffering for NO good reason and caused MORE of a turning away from God than would have been had he never been born. It is my opinion that Judas never stumbled anyone, but I an't know that for sure. Hitler and those with him stumbled a world imo.

Wasn't the point...

We either go to heaven...or not.
If we go, we end up right along side anyone having gone before us.

If we remain the person each one of us becomes....
then proximity is a problem....and consequence could be immediate.

There's a parable that ends with being...
'bound hand and foot and thrown into the outer darkness...
for a weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

[savagewind]

OK andromeda. Not the chick. Not the TV series, because that's fiction. The galaxy? Is it going to collide with ours?

Please never forget the God we worship is ALL POWERFUL. That means it is in God's power to be anything good. Even prevent the sun from failing Earth. Yes. I guess so. Maybe

 

[savagewind]

MY point is I will be happy to dip my bread in the bowl with Judas because I don't keep account of the injury. But Hitler, if he is one in heaven, I know I won't go there. I won't. God can't make me go.

 

[thau]

As to 1st Cor. 2: not really the best rabbit out of the hat as reply, for it echoes many other quotes that either God is purposefully mysterious (or secretive), or that man is to dumb to comprehend anything with the slightest of detail attached. That, I would qualify as unsatisfying, yes.

Yes, perhaps, but only if you are not of the ilk already being indescribably impressed by what we can already observe for ourselves that God has created, i.e. the entire universe, the human mind and senses, etc. I marvel at such a God and if He says there is so much more to be revealed I have no doubts.

Secondly, I’ll gladly apologize if you can cite anywhere in my OP any demand that God meet me on my terms, or upon anyone’s terms for that matter.
*taps and rolls fingers in wait*…

I deducted as much, whether right or wrong on my part.

I cited most of the popular (biblical) Scriptural C&V that directly (or alludes directly enough) any sort of pointed description of a Christian Heaven. Sources included Strongs Concordance, Easton’s Bible Dictionary, numerous commentaries, etc. regarding C&V citations of Heaven. Now I realize that since you self-identify as a Catholic adherent, you may well consider Catholic catechisms and dogma as essentially equal to direct quotable scripture (or you may not), but then there are many Protestants that consider such Pope sanctioned “interpretations” to be written by the Church, and not from God (just saying).

That’s a whole other realm of discussion. I have many objections to Protestant theology where we both cannot be right. Suffice it to say for the moment that in Matthew 16 Jesus established His Church here on earth to be the final authority where what the Church deems to be bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and so on. Whether you or the Protestants deny who that Church now is is the crux of contention I suppose.

I seem to recall you qualifying your scenario as being “plausible” (but you have inspired me to pop in my Eagles debut album now; love me some “Peaceful Easy Feelin’&#8221.

Too each his own. The Eagles music just never excited me. I was always more intrigued in their fascination with demonic ancestors than I was with their music. Not that I am not without my demons. I happen to have grown up with the Doors and the Blue Oyster Cult as my “true loves.”

Well, that’s certainly a most pleasant fantasy, I would concur (sounds a bit more like Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist reincarnation spin, but ok...). Is it your claim that the Christian Heaven is that specific kind of fantasy? If so, could you/would you please cite any Biblical C&V (any translation mind you) that bolsters and describes that claim as you have suggested? I would be grateful (though not eternally ya know) if you would. If not, I invite you to offer a better and more plausible conundrum to contemplate.

Not for one second to I claim that kind of fantasy I described will resemble “the Christian heaven.” I was merely suggesting to those who think heaven would get boring a scenario where it would not be. I am certain heaven is infinitely more amazing and filled with joy.

Of course, I am not so naïve to think God cannot be far more creative and fascinating than my example, but my example satisfies a number of concerns.
Well of course, and as you’ll note in the OP, your caveat was not an expectation of mine to be met that you be more “creative” that your god… only that you might bolster a solid and Scripturally based argument for a Christian Heaven as one might be able to glean alone, or by reason, shall we say.

Heaven has been visited by a number of saints and other privileged souls where we do not doubt its existence. More than anything they all seem to reveal an indescribable peace that they never experienced on earth, one where they feel they belong and never want to leave.

Let’s say you are a stowaway upon a ship that sinks in the middle of the South Pacific, and you are the lone but fortunate survivor that washes ashore that cliched desert island. Your only companion and source of entertaining reading is a waterlogged copy of The Bible (let’s just say the NIV, being most popular today). Let’s say you were raised in an unreligious home…aware of some religious claims…but favoring nor disfavoring any particular claims either theologically or philosophically (Now c’mon, that’s certainly plausible, as I am one example myself). Just from reading that one Bible, front to back, again and again (with no one else present to lend any bias, or interpretation, or explanation, or commentary)… what might you then conclude to “know” with certainty and absolute conviction of “truth” that the Christian “Heaven” is is a destination of desirable outcome within a certain mortal existence (Eagles on the heavenly jukebox excepted)?

Maybe not a lot for most would be my guess. You might be totally forgiven for your dismissal of the words? But that is why Jesus established His Church to be the guiding authority of not only interpretating Scripture, but witnessing to the truth. Someone alone on an island with or without the Bible is a whole different class of people God will judge.

Christians the world over, from untold numbers of sects and sub-sects (we have snake-handlers nearby these parts, no kidding) all seem to have unique and/or similar claims (depends upon the claim) of otherwise implicit and impossibly vague and unsubstantiated details, and quite frankly some stuff that is obviously pure invention and/or wish-making. For adherent believers already “gifted” with religious faith, such claims ask little of sourced validation or substantiation, I know.

There will always be division amonst the bretheren, that has been manifest. I still maintain certain truths are too clear to be denied and if you live upon those dogmas alone you cannot stray too far. No one should feel entitled to have answers to all their questions first answered before they feel obligated to give God any credit or gratitude.

But if you’re on that remote desert island all alone…with naught but Bible in hand, and even less measure of requisite believing faith… where in that book shall I look to answer the simple question…

…”What’s so great about a Christian Heaven”?

Christian heaven speaks of living for all eternity, about knowing those dear to you once again, about no more pain or sorrow. If God is real, then so is his love for his creation. It makes no sense He would abandon us to oblivion after a very brief flirtation with existence.


Hard for me to find the time to really engage anyone on these boards, but I appreciate your effort, and understand I often may not be able to reciprocate. Ps – ditch the Mencken quote; he assumes these things are unknowable, that is his first mistake.

 

[Thief]

MY point is I will be happy to dip my bread in the bowl with Judas because I don't keep account of the injury. But Hitler, if he is one in heaven, I know I won't go there. I won't. God can't make me go.

Yeah well....
We go to that 'place'...or we don't.

I suspect, there is a judgment call made in the hour of the last breath.
As you stand from the dust, the angels are there to see what comes of it.

They will then allow you to follow or leave you wherever you fell.
Heaven's choice...not yours.

I don't think Hitler is content....no matter where he is.
Anyone near him can see him as he truly is....and likely move away.

 

[waitasec]

OK andromeda. Not the chick. Not the TV series, because that's fiction. The galaxy? Is it going to collide with ours?

Please never forget the God we worship is ALL POWERFUL. That means it is in God's power to be anything good. Even prevent the sun from failing Earth. Yes. I guess so. Maybe

hmmm, "god" is indifferent. not good not evil. why would god care about this little tiny blue insignificant planet...because we're on it? please. we aren't that special in the scheme of things...just look at how natural events like a tsunami cares about what is in it's way, much less than our sun dying out.

one day, or whatever you may call this event, all of the stars will die....

fade to black.
the end.


so yes the psalmist was very very wrong.

 

[waitasec]

MY point is I will be happy to dip my bread in the bowl with Judas because I don't keep account of the injury. But Hitler, if he is one in heaven, I know I won't go there. I won't. God can't make me go.

isn't god all powerful?

 

[savagewind]

isn't god all powerful?

I think it should be obvious The God does not MAKE people do or don't do

 

[kjw47]

MY point is I will be happy to dip my bread in the bowl with Judas because I don't keep account of the injury. But Hitler, if he is one in heaven, I know I won't go there. I won't. God can't make me go.

Hitler will never be in heaven he blasphemed against the holy spirit. If one reads revelation--only 144,000 are bought from the earth. rev 14:3) they make up the little flock = the bride of Christ.

 

[savagewind]

kjw47, are you a Jehovah's Witness or a former one?

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses teach it is not ours to judge who will be receiving everlasting life when "Hitler" is mentioned. Which makes it a possibility that he might have life along with a Jewish baby he killed. They use the scripture that only God can read hearts. But I think I agree with you that Hitler blasphemed The Holy Spirit.

Are you a JW? What does the "k" stand for? Kingdom perhaps?

I don't believe 144,000 is a literal number of people. It is my opinion it has to do with heavenly aspects of reality, not earthly.

 

[kjw47]

kjw47, are you a Jehovah's Witness or a former one?

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses teach it is not ours to judge who will be receiving everlasting life when "Hitler" is mentioned. Which makes it a possibility that he might have life along with a Jewish baby he killed. They use the scripture that only God can read hearts. But I think I agree with you that Hitler blasphemed The Holy Spirit.

Are you a JW? What does the "k" stand for? Kingdom perhaps?

I don't believe 144,000 is a literal number of people. It is my opinion it has to do with heavenly aspects of reality, not earthly.

Yes i am a JW, kjw are my initials--- blaspheming the holy spirit = working in opposition to the will of God. Hitler threw the JW,s into the concentration camps alongside of the Jewish people-- Because they refused to stand on both sides of the war and kill one another--the only group claiming to be christian that applied the teachings of Gods son over the orders of men.
144,000 is literal--the little flock = the bride of Christ--to go to heaven to serve as kings and priests alongside of Jesus during judgement--- the great crowd actually recieved this promise from Jesus- Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

 

[savagewind]

I think it's cool your initials can mean Kingdom Jehovah Witness!

I had questions about some of the doctrine the Watchtower teaches for many years. The first one to come to mind is why do they teach "not forsaking the gathering together as some have the custom" to mean be at every meeting? How is missing a meeting forsaking gathering together. "Forsake" means to "leave behind entirely". And from there there were others.

The Lord did show me what Hebrews 10:25 really means and it is wonderful.

You understand that they are telling you the truth so you believe them. I believed them for a long time because I know how to "cover over sin". But when two elders told me that they obey the Governing Body and not Jesus, I walked out never to return. Know what? I do not care to to be blessed because I obey men. I would rather suffer, thank you very much.

Because I am sure they teach error about some Earthly things I am sure they do not know about Heavenly things. How could they?

They teach John the Baptist will not be serving in Heaven. Do you know how to "walk in another man's shoes"? What do you think John will think of Jehovah when he finds out he is restricted to Earth and won't be going to Heaven? That is what the Watchtower teaches.

 

[javajo]

I believe Heaven will one day be on a new earth, the City of the New Jerusalem comes down and God and Christ dwell forever with us on earth. The Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has it come into the heart of man the things God has prepared for those who love him. I think there will be plenty of fun and interesting things to do, including work, but not by the sweat of our brow, but pleasant, joyful work. It will definitely be way better than this present world by far.

 

[kjw47]

I think it's cool your initials can mean Kingdom Jehovah Witness!

I had questions about some of the doctrine the Watchtower teaches for many years. The first one to come to mind is why do they teach "not forsaking the gathering together as some have the custom" to mean be at every meeting? How is missing a meeting forsaking gathering together. "Forsake" means to "leave behind entirely". And from there there were others.

The Lord did show me what Hebrews 10:25 really means and it is wonderful.

You understand that they are telling you the truth so you believe them. I believed them for a long time because I know how to "cover over sin". But when two elders told me that they obey the Governing Body and not Jesus, I walked out never to return. Know what? I do not care to to be blessed because I obey men. I would rather suffer, thank you very much.

Because I am sure they teach error about some Earthly things I am sure they do not know about Heavenly things. How could they?

They teach John the Baptist will not be serving in Heaven. Do you know how to "walk in another man's shoes"? What do you think John will think of Jehovah when he finds out he is restricted to Earth and won't be going to Heaven? That is what the Watchtower teaches.

No one who died before Jesus died will enter heaven-- they will have eternal life on earth in paradise( nothing wrong with that prospect)
No one makes all of the meetings.
If they said they listened to the governing body-- its because Jesus appointed the faithful and discreet slave( lead teachers) over all of his belongings to give spiritual food at the proper time--Jesus also said of them persay-- whatever you do to the least of these my brothers-you do to me-- so in effect by listening to them one is listening to Jesus persay.
They are the only ones on this earth who actually listen to Jesus and apply his truth.

 

[javajo]

I believe when Jesus died he went to Hades where both Hell and Paradise (with a gulf separating them), existed. Jesus preached to, and set the Captive free, led them on high, so to speak. I believe he took them from Paradise to Heaven and so all the OT Saints are in Heaven with the Lord now. I believe those who die in the Lord are in Heaven, but that one day the Heavenly City and God will forever be on a new earth and we will all be with the Lord forever. And it will be grrrrreat!

 

[savagewind]

jkw47 everything you have posted on this page was TOLD you by the Watchtower. Tell me please, how did Moses, Abraham, David, Mary.....know of Heavenly things without the Watchtower? THEN they heard from Heaven, now we need the Watchtower? Isn't that going spiritually backwards?

Please remember the ONLY claim they have of inspiration is a QUESTION. Can you for one second imagine Matthew 24:45-47 is another parable of Jesus and NOT a prophesy? Also, even if it is prophesy, who judges whether they have become the "evil slave" mentioned in Matthew 24:48? Them? If you were the evil slave would you publish it? I think I probably wouldn't.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

isn't god all powerful?

No, God is not all powerful because God can not lie.- Titus 1 v 2

Jesus ransom covers everyone except those committing the unforgivable sin.
-Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6

That is why Matthew could write that Jesus ransom covers MANY and not all.
-Matthew 20 v 28