So will they or won't they? (Russia/Ukraine)

[Estro Felino]

Just like the belief that Russia doesn't interfere and skew results? How can you dispute the last line? You have voting slips?

I understand Russian. I have read so much about this matter.
If you do not trust me, go to Sevastopol and ask people if they are happy or not.

 

[Stevicus]

Why don't they redo it then?
The result will be the same.
Why are Crimeans happy, then?
You speak Russian? I do.
I know they voted for being with the RF.

The Crimeans voted to be part of Religious Forums?

Добро пожаловать, крымчане!

 

[Estro Felino]

The Crimeans voted to be part of Religious Forums?

Добро пожаловать, крымчане!

RF...Rossiiskaya Federatsia

 

[Kooky]

Explain me one thing.
So a nation, a people is wicked, when the 90% of it sides with a person that certain elites consider "wicked"?

You tell me. Were the Austrian Germans "wicked" for legitimizing the already factual and present annexation of their country in a totally democratic, and definitely not fraudulent or coerced, 90% result?

Were the people of the Crimea "wicked" for presenting a charade of approval for a military force that had already seized their country, armed to the teeth by one of the world's nuclear superpowers?

 

[Kooky]

That is not credible...I am sorry.

After all, if Putin's party can manage 110% electoral victories in Russia, why wouldn't they have similar rates of approval in a country they violently occupied and annexed in defiance of an international agreement that they themselves signed specifically to keep Ukraine from joining NATO?

 

[Estro Felino]

You tell me. Were the Austrian Germans "wicked" for legitimizing the already factual and present annexation of their country in a totally democratic, and definitely not fraudulent or coerced, 90% result?

Were the people of the Crimea "wicked" for presenting a charade of approval for a military force that had already seized their country, armed to the teeth by one of the world's nuclear superpowers?

No...they are not.
If you consider Crimeans wicked for preferring Putin, and refusing Kiev, just say it.

 

[Stevicus]

This article made a few interesting points: Why the US is involved in the Ukraine-Russia conflict (msn.com)

There appears to mixed public opinion about this whole matter:

As global leaders continue to engage in diplomatic efforts to avoid war between Russia and Ukraine, a senior Department of State official told ABC News warned Thursday that this is "perhaps the most perilous moment for peace and security since the end of the Cold War."

As the conflict plays out on a global stage, Americans are somewhat mixed on how the U.S. should respond. In a new poll from Quinnipiac University, 57% of Americans said the U.S. should not send troops into Ukraine if Russia invades, and 54% support Biden's decision to deploy troops to support NATO allies.

57% of Americans believe the US should not send troops into Ukraine if Russia invades.

Earlier this week, President Joe Biden addressed the American public and again made clear the U.S. will not send troops to support Ukraine. But he promised to defend "every inch" of NATO territory, already deploying several thousand more troops to Europe, and to support the Ukrainian people and their government with lethal defensive weapons, economic aid, and crippling U.S. and allied sanctions on Russia.

That high level of U.S. involvement is necessary, he said, because "this is about more than just Russia and Ukraine."

"It's about standing for what we believe in, for the future that we want for our world, for liberty, the right of countless countries to choose their own destiny. And the right of people to determine their own futures, or the principle that a country can't change its neighbor's borders by force," Biden said. "If we do not stand for freedom where it is at risk today, we'll surely pay a steeper price tomorrow."

So "it's all about freedom." That's the standard interventionist party line.

Everything is about freedom. We can justify invading or intervening in any conflict or country in the world and say "it's all about freedom."

So much for Joe Biden's input on the matter. "Freedom! Rah!"

A better, more detailed answer seems to come from this professor they're quoting in the article:

To understand the United States' vested interest in the conflict, you'd have to go back to the Cold War, Craig Albert, an associate professor of political science and the director of Intelligence and Security Studies at Augusta University, told ABC News.

To counter Soviet aggression in Europe, the U.S. helped form the security alliance NATO, or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in 1949. In the years since, NATO has expanded several times, including adding three former Soviet republics.

Ukraine, a former Soviet republic that is bordered by Russia on the east, is not a NATO member, though in 2008 the alliance opened the door to membership. Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded this not happen, as he seeks to limit NATO along Russia's border.

"Ukraine has attached itself to the West, to NATO," Albert said. "They still have military agreements, treaties, economic treaties, business treaties or relationships, even though there's no NATO treaty in place between Ukraine and NATO and the U.S."

The NATO members bordering Russia also present a concern. The potential impact of the Ukraine conflict on U.S. interests is considered "significant," by the Council on Foreign Relations, which said in part that the conflict "risks further deterioration of U.S.-Russia relations and greater escalation if Russia expands its presence in Ukraine or into NATO countries."

As Russia tries to "reassert itself into the great power game," the U.S. is seeking to maintain the balance of power in Europe and "protect Ukraine as a buffer against Russian-perceived aggression in Europe itself," Albert said, noting that Ukraine is "strategically important" for Russia, the U.S. and NATO.

NATO is "critical to U.S. policy in Europe," and supporting Ukraine for the past 30-plus years "has been integral to U.S. security policy for the European continent as a whole," Matthew Pauly, an associate professor of history at Michigan State University who is an expert on Russia, Ukraine and Eastern Europe, told ABC News.

"There's no doubt that the most eastern-facing NATO member states are quite rightly anxious about Russia's actions in Ukraine," Pauly said. "The United States obviously views it as its duty to oblige by the responsibilities of NATO membership to hold the line on the eastern front of NATO."

Indeed, the U.S. has already sent in troops amid the Russian aggression to support NATO's eastern flank.

"Make no mistake, the United States will defend every inch of NATO territory with the full force of American power," Biden said this week. "An attack against one NATO country is an attack against all of us."

This is a cogent point. I can see where the leaders and governments of the nations which border Russia, Belarus, or Ukraine might have cause to be wary and anxious about Russia's actions in Ukraine. But I also can't help but notice that the US media are focusing primarily on the US government and what Biden is saying. What about hearing directly from the leaders of the nations closest to the action? Don't their opinions count? Or do the media only care about what Joe Biden says about it?

The article also mentions the possible impact a war in Ukraine could have, in the form of higher energy prices and a potential escalation in cyberwarfare. The Russians have already shown their prowess in that department, somehow always getting the better of the hapless clowns of Silicon Valley.

The exact impact of an invasion beyond the front lines remains unclear. Though Biden warned the American people that there would be "consequences at home" -- foremost an increase in energy prices as a result.

"I will not pretend this will be painless," Biden said Tuesday. "There could be impact on our energy prices, so we're taking active steps to alleviate the pressure on our own energy markets and offset rising prices."

In an incursion limited to eastern Ukraine, there could be a rise in the price of oil by $5 or $10 a barrel, according to Patrick De Haan of GasBuddy. Currently, a $1 per barrel rise equates to about a 1.5 cents per gallon rise in the national average price of gas. Should the U.S. and allies issue severe sanctions on Russia, it could retaliate by curbing oil exports, he said, impacting global markets.

If higher oil and gas prices cause the Federal Reserve to be more aggressive in its monetary tightening, that could also impact inflation, according to Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody's Analytics.

Cyberwarfare also remains a concern. Last month, the Department of Homeland Security warned that the U.S. response to a possible Russian invasion could result in a cyberattack launched against the U.S. by the Russian government or its proxies.

There's also the impact on American troops, as more military forces are being deployed to support NATO countries.

"I think [Americans] should be paying attention to this because it could significantly affect strategic deployments of U.S. personnel," Albert said. "If nothing else, just people moving from where they are in their typical assignments right now, to move somewhere else, more strategically positioned against, perhaps, a Russian invasion."

 

[amorphous_constellation]

@Estro Felino You seem to want to answer my specific questions with very broad answers. I guess you can do that, but I thought I had good questions. But don't I think broad answers make for a very enriching forum interaction.

 

[muhammad_isa]

57% of Americans believe the US should not send troops into Ukraine if Russia invades.

I wasn't aware that it was even on the table.
Why should it be?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I understand Russian. I have read so much about this matter.
If you do not trust me, go to Sevastopol and ask people if they are happy or not.

Do you think they get any unbiased media? Since apparently there is no proper free press in Russia (and in any allied to Russia), so how would they know what it is like to be not under the Russian boot? And what do you think about any political opposition in Russia? Not think this might carry over to other areas? A likely opposition leader was almost murdered.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Estro Felino You seem to want to answer my specific questions with very broad answers. I guess you can do that, but I thought I had good questions. But don't I think broad answers make for a very enriching forum interaction.

I am sorry of I sounded too vague.
Btw...I do think there is an American Deep State who works for people who manage billions as if they were poker cards. Bankers mainly.
And so, if they want to start a war, they will yse their financial resources to push people to go to war, no matter the cost.

 

[Kooky]

No...they are not.
If you consider Crimeans wicked for preferring Putin, and refusing Kiev, just say it.

I think the Crimeans are perfectly sensible to prefer being ruled by Putin to being shot by bloodthirsty pro-Russian paramilitaries, or disappeared into Siberian labor camps by Russian state police types.
To be killed or to be enslaved is, after all, a voluntary choice on their part - that is, so long as their continued survival remains useful to the Russian state apparatus.

I do, however, consider it a wicked thought that there is any legitimacy to conquest and oppression. Making people cheer your goosestepping stormtroopers does not indicate popular approval, it only indicates that you're desperate to mask your own blatant show of force behind veneers of legitimacy.

 

[Kooky]

This is a cogent point. I can see where the leaders and governments of the nations which border Russia, Belarus, or Ukraine might have cause to be wary and anxious about Russia's actions in Ukraine. But I also can't help but notice that the US media are focusing primarily on the US government and what Biden is saying. What about hearing directly from the leaders of the nations closest to the action? Don't their opinions count? Or do the media only care about what Joe Biden says about it?

Well, yes. The leaders of other countries have always been, at best, props for the America-centric worldview that all US propaganda has always relied on. Americans believe they are the world's chosen people, and their President the leader of the free world, so any propaganda needs to pander to that sentiment in order to be effective.

This is especially true for centrists and center-left liberals, who are especially vulnerable to the notion that foreign diplomacy is to be guided by lofty ideals rather than the brutal power politics of imperialism.

 

[Suave]

Biden and Putin speak; U.S. pulls embassy staff, military trainers from Ukraine | Reuters

Putin said nothing on Macron call to indicate invasion: French official | Reuters

I've seen numerous headlines where they're saying a Russian invasion of Ukraine is imminent, but according to a French official, Putin's call to Macron didn't indicate invasion. The US and other countries are warning their citizens to leave Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the Russians are saying they chased off a US submarine from their territorial waters: Russia chases off U.S. submarine from its far east waters, Moscow says (msn.com)

The U.S. thinks the Russians might be planning some kind of "false flag" as a pretext to justify invasion, but the eyes of the world are on this situation right now, the Russians may decide to hold off and wait. That is, if they were ever planning any invasion at all.

In order to deescalate tensions in and around pro Russian separatist regions of the Donbas region, perhaps Russia, Ukraine, and most everyone could agree the people of Donetsk and Luhansk should vote if they would like to be independent nations or become annexed by Russia.

 

[England my lionheart]

In order to deescalate tensions in and around pro Russian separatist regions of the Donbas region, perhaps Russia, Ukraine, and most everyone could agree the people of Donetsk and Luhansk should vote if they would like to be independent nations or become annexed by Russia.

Too late for that as putin has already given them russian passports.

 

[Suave]

Too late for that as putin has already given them russian passports.

Please let us consider a national referendum be held among current residents of Donetsk and Luhansk. I am confident it is not too late for Democracy to work there.

 

[England my lionheart]

Please let us consider a national referendum be held among current residents of Donetsk and Luhansk. I am confident it is not too late for Democracy to work there.

Putin fast tracked their russian passports and has recognized the as independent states which has angered many countries,his speech today was very ominous,this has been well planned in advance so if this escalates russian troops can move into the 2 states to protect their russian citizens,i hope its not too late too but,

 

[Suave]

Putin fast tracked their russian passports and has recognized the as independent states which has angered many countries,his speech today was very ominous,this has been well planned in advance so if this escalates russian troops can move into the 2 states to protect their russian citizens,i hope its not too late too but,

Fortunately, peacekeepers by Russia are moving into the war torn Donbas region where perhaps peaceful elections could soon be held.

 

[England my lionheart]

Fortunately, peacekeepers by Russia are moving into the war torn Donbas region where perhaps peaceful elections could soon be held.

As predicted im not so sure they are there for peacekeeping though,after all putin has already chosen the ukranian government if he goes in which is so more likely now.

 

[Suave]

As predicted im not so sure they are there for peacekeeping though,after all putin has already chosen the ukranian government if he goes in which is so more likely now.

Русские тоже любят своих детей

"Путевка в жизнь"