So will they or won't they? (Russia/Ukraine)

[muhammad_isa]

Is Russia truly a threat to European or global security? They were a far bigger threat during the Cold War - or at least, they were touted as such. The "evil empire," as Reagan called them. But sometimes I wondered whether the threat was overblown or exaggerated back then.

Do the Russians have reason to feel threatened by us? These are the questions we should be asking, rather than allow ourselves to be afflicted with war fever.

The only reason for the rhetoric that is going on at the moment is due to Russia's military threats.
There is no war fever. The west doesn't want trouble, but it looks like they are going to get it.

Remember. Russia and Belarus [and China], are not democratic, in as much as they are authoritarian.
If you trust them, that's your business.
I feel that there is plenty of reasons not to. They are not open, and have a philosophy that claims to be superior to capitalism, but in reality is not. It relies on censorship of the press etc.

 

[Stevicus]

The only reason for the rhetoric that is going on at the moment is due to Russia's military threats.
There is no war fever. The west doesn't want trouble, but it looks like they are going to get it.

Remember. Russia and Belarus [and China], are not democratic, in as much as they are authoritarian.
If you trust them, that's your business.
I feel that there is plenty of reasons not to. They are not open, and have a philosophy that claims to be superior to capitalism, but in reality is not. It relies on censorship of the press etc.

I didn't say that I trust them, but realistically, there's nothing else we can do except wait and watch to see what they do. I don't think they'll invade at this point, but I don't really know for certain. Anything is possible, I suppose.

I don't think Biden going on about the Russians "could invade any day" is particularly helpful. If they don't invade, then Biden ends up looking foolish. It would be just like the boy who cried wolf.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

@Estro Felino

So in our discussion before, you've told me how you like putin. I have a couple more questions, to get to a bigger picture of your views.. You like putin, what about lukashenko? Do you believe lukashenko was elected fairly, by an 80% margin or so, and that the protests against him were therefore illegitimate? What do you think of recent statements by lukashenko, where he threatened nuclear war. This was shown as a sort of meme on rt's youtube channel

What are your views on other autocrats, like kim jong-un? What's your general view on the leadership and choices made in world war 2, is the modern 'deep state' comparable in rhetoric to say, statements made by the world war 2 era japanese war cabinet?

What do you think of the russian backed yanukovych's anti-protest laws? Were they not objectively brutal? Do you yourself believe in the right to protest? Is that a 'western' right, and therefore, something that should be eschewed?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't think Biden going on about the Russians "could invade any day" is particularly helpful. If they don't invade, then Biden ends up looking foolish. It would be just like the boy who cried wolf.

Mmm .. I know what you mean. It appears to create more tension.

However, I think that if Biden says nothing, that is not particularly helpful either.
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

The right intention is to try to avoid conflict by any means possible, imo.
It seems that conflict is inevitable. I can't see China and Russia changing their colours.

 

[England my lionheart]

Putin has already fast tracked passports for Ukrainians in Donbas,any attack on Ukrainians with a Russian passport is harmed it’s thanks for the invive,he has already chosen the government positions for the region and knows that nato cannot really do much and the UN is,errrm the UN,all the gear no idea.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Putin has already fast tracked passports for Ukrainians in Donbas,any attack on Ukrainians with a Russian passport is harmed it’s thanks for the invive,he has already chosen the government positions for the region and knows that nato cannot really do much and the UN is,errrm the UN,all the gear no idea.

Mmm .. isn't partition an option?
i.e. a redrawing of borders.

I don't favour war. I favour peace.
However, something tells me that that will not happen.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mmm .. isn't partition an option?
i.e. a redrawing of borders.

I don't favour war. I favour peace.
However, something tells me that that will not happen.

Peace would be the ideal,the problem with borders in europe is they are blurred and changed many times,imo partition never works,India Pakistan as an example,or Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Estro Felino

So in our discussion before, you've told me how you like putin. I have a couple more questions, to get to a bigger picture of your views.. You like putin, what about lukashenko? Do you believe lukashenko was elected fairly, by an 80% margin or so, and that the protests against him were therefore illegitimate? What do you think of recent statements by lukashenko, where he threatened nuclear war. This was shown as a sort of meme on rt's youtube channel

What are your views on other autocrats, like kim jong-un? What's your general view on the leadership and choices made in world war 2, is the modern 'deep state' comparable in rhetoric to say, statements made by the world war 2 era japanese war cabinet?

What do you think of the russian backed yanukovych's anti-protest laws? Were they not objectively brutal? Do you yourself believe in the right to protest? Is that a 'western' right, and therefore, something that should be eschewed?

I am for democracy and against autocrats.
As for Ukraine, Crime chose to become part of the Russian Federation via referendum.
So Crimeans' will has to be respected.

I think the Deep State is using Ukraine to get to Putin.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I didn't say that I trust them, but realistically, there's nothing else we can do except wait and watch to see what they do. I don't think they'll invade at this point, but I don't really know for certain. Anything is possible, I suppose.

I don't think Biden going on about the Russians "could invade any day" is particularly helpful. If they don't invade, then Biden ends up looking foolish. It would be just like the boy who cried wolf.

Don't forget hypocritical as well.

Kind of makes the Afghanistan pullout pointless with all the BS excuses made for doing so.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I am for democracy and against autocrats.
As for Ukraine, Crime chose to become part of the Russian Federation via referendum.
So Crimeans' will has to be respected.

I think the Deep State is using Ukraine to get to Putin.

So if part of Italy voted to be an independent state you'd be fine with that? And if you look to Wiki, the voting was hardly judged as free and without questions.

 

[Estro Felino]

So if part of Italy voted to be an independent state you'd be fine with that? And if you look to Wiki, the voting was hardly judged as free and without questions.

Yes. I am for the referendum for the South Tyrol independence.
You can find posts of me saying that in several threads.
I know several Austrians who appreciate this stance of mine.

 

[Estro Felino]

And if you look to Wiki, the voting was hardly judged as free and without questions.

Why don't they redo it then?
The result will be the same.
Why are Crimeans happy, then?
You speak Russian? I do.
I know they voted for being with the RF.

 

[Sedim Haba]

I think Putin was toying with the idea, but he's a smart man. A lot of intelligence can be obtained by the reactions of other foreign countries and I'm sure a wealth of data was made available.

He's a hard read though and conditions and circumstances are not constant.

If he does, I suspect April or May as the weather improves for military operations to be the most effective.

He's KGB so he's toying with senile Biden and having a good lol

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes. I am for the referendum for the South Tyrol independence.
You can find posts of me saying that in several threads.
I know several Austrians who appreciate this stance of mine.

And this should apply all around the world, and where 'manipulation' of the population is likely? Is that conducive to peaceful relations between neighbouring countries?

 

[Estro Felino]

And this should apply all around the world, and where 'manipulation' of the population is likely? Is that conducive to peaceful relations between neighbouring countries?

These are conjectures.
In democracy the majority of a population is always right.

 

[Mock Turtle]

These are conjectures.
In democracy the majority of a population is always right.

Majority?

2014 Crimean status referendum - Wikipedia

Andrey Illarionov, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a former Russian government adviser, cited results of previous polls over past three years showing the Crimean support for joining Russia between 23 and 41 percent to conclude that the actual support for the reunification of Crimea with Russia was about 34 percent and that at least two thirds of Crimea did not vote for it. He called the referendum a "grossly rigged falsification" and the outcome "cynically distorted".

The chairman of the electoral campaign of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People claimed officials did not check carefully whether voters' names were on the electoral register and that some voters were bussed in to Bakhchysarai to increase participation rates in the city. Mejlis also stated that only 34.2% of Crimea residents participated in the referendum.

And a third option - to keep the status quo - apparently wasn't an option.

 

[Estro Felino]

Majority?

2014 Crimean status referendum - Wikipedia

Andrey Illarionov, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a former Russian government adviser, cited results of previous polls over past three years showing the Crimean support for joining Russia between 23 and 41 percent to conclude that the actual support for the reunification of Crimea with Russia was about 34 percent and that at least two thirds of Crimea did not vote for it. He called the referendum a "grossly rigged falsification" and the outcome "cynically distorted".

The chairman of the electoral campaign of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People claimed officials did not check carefully whether voters' names were on the electoral register and that some voters were bussed in to Bakhchysarai to increase participation rates in the city. Mejlis also stated that only 34.2% of Crimea residents participated in the referendum.

And a third option - to keep the status quo - apparently wasn't an option.

That is not credible...I am sorry.

 

[Mock Turtle]

That is not credible...I am sorry.

Just like the belief that Russia doesn't interfere and skew results? How can you dispute the last line? You have voting slips?

 

[Kooky]

I am for democracy and against autocrats.
As for Ukraine, Crime chose to become part of the Russian Federation via referendum.

Like Austria did in 1938; a very democratic referendum, after military occupation was already a fait accompli.

 

[Estro Felino]

Like Austria did in 1938; a very democratic referendum, after military occupation was already a fait accompli.

Explain me one thing.
So a nation, a people is wicked, when the 90% of it sides with a person that certain elites consider "wicked"?