Solution to homosexuals is by government executions according to Pastor.

[Ashoka]

As if this loon is representative of over 2 billion people. You can find examples of anyone saying any crazy thing.

Yet it is more prevalent in Christian circles. Yes there are extremists everywhere. However, American evangelical Christianity has the loudest voice in the country right now. They are the ones spreading this hate. He's not the only one. Look up Stedfast Baptist Church. Look up Greg Locke. No. It's become commonplace for Christians to act like this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yet it is more prevalent in Christian circles. Yes there are extremists everywhere. However, American evangelical Christianity has the loudest voice in the country right now. They are the ones spreading this hate. He's not the only one. Look up Stedfast Baptist Church. Look up Greg Locke. No. It's become commonplace for Christians to act like this.

I live in ****ing Ohio, where you're only 15-20 minutes away from the nearest farm, wherever you are, and it is not "common" for Christians to act like this or hold such violently bigoted views. Maybe you think it is if you only watch the news, but there's the real world outside of that.

 

[paradox]

When one looks at the spectrum of Christians and compares them to the spectrum of humanists, who have no religion and thus serve as a control group for determining the effect of Christianity, one sees the effect of this religion on people.

You know that I could say the same about "humanists"?
I could likewise say "Christians serve as a control group to determine the effects of godless life and it's effects on people"

Maybe you've noticed that you haven't written a single loving word in this thread, disagreeing with non-Christians about acceptance and tolerance of the LGBTQ community, promoting disrespect for them.

I've seen no good word in opposite direction either, so how can you say you're better than me or more loving than me?

Also, notice that I am not saying that the behavior of an individual defines them as a Christian, which can also be correct, but that the behavior of Christians defines what Christianity is, not their words or the words in their book.

This is certainly wrong view since to be a Christian doesn't mean to be Saint, Christians admit they're sinners, do you admit your mistakes?

You haven't demonstrated any bigotry in me, but you have expressed bigotry yourself.

You said "Being good DOES have a behavioral test. Being Christian doesn't."
Which mean you see Christianity as 100% hostile such that no good can come out of it.
How is that not biggotry?

How did you manage to reach this when I just said Christians are an elite group of Bible passage cherry pickers?

I said he is not Christian because he quotes OT law as authoritative and something which determines what Christianity should be today.
You said he's Christian.
What other conclusion could one make out of this? other than you believing that Christians live by OT law.

You said "You are both Christian."
But I do not preach execution of gay people here.
So either he is wrong or I'm right or vice versa but not both.

You decide who is right and whether we are same.

 

[Ashoka]

I live in ****ing Ohio, where you're only 15-20 minutes away from the nearest farm, wherever you are, and it is not "common" for Christians to act like this or hold such violently bigoted views. Maybe you think it is if you only watch the news, but there's the real world outside of that.

I was raised Christian, an Evangelical Protestant. I was Catholic for a while as well. I've lived religious trauma. I don't "think" anything. I know. Christianity, to me, is dangerous. Its belief system, it's "saints", it's preachers, its teachers, its theologians, its doctrines and dogmas. Yes, you're right, your average Christian is not a bad person. But for every good Christian, there are many more that are not, that wish harm, that stormed the capital, that wish this country was a Christian nationalist country. Forced birthers, anti-LGBTQIA, fundamentalists who beat their children. Racists, dominionists...the Christian right has a hold on this country and they absolutely refuse to let go.

All this preacher did was say the quiet part out loud. Wanting the LGBTQIA community to be murdered is a more commonly held belief, albeit a quieter one, than many people realize. Even if they don't wish death, they still see us as "abominations" and "disordered". Even your average "nice" Christian wants us to be gone.

 

[paradox]

And you are free to do as you please as you do here on this thread, including expressing your aversion to a class of people who don't conform to your religious beliefs, which is far from a respectable position.

I'm certainly not of opinion that there is no place for gay people in Christianity, you made this up obviously because you're blinded by this "pastor" who does not represent my faith or views.
First of all he seems to belong to some American sect, but I do not belong to any sects, so how can he be same thing as me?

Your definition of Christian doesn't work for me.

That's because you're ignorant of Christianity.

 

[F1fan]

What I loathe, as a Christian, is the abysmal irrationality inherent in the preaching by many American pastors ('pastor'? How about that for irony!)

They sling verses around and their preaching style amounts to little more than literal wooden principles. The concept of different types of genre is a mystery to these guys.

Where I live I don't come across this nonsense very often, but USA seems to have
more than its fair share.

It's a gift to atheists of course! They can pretend that this is Christianity.

Well, Christianity is a theological buffet. A person can select what looks tasty and ignore the rest. This is how Christianity can include pro-choice liberals all the way to right wing extremists like members of the KKK, and all believe they are saved via Jesus' sacrifice. With some 44,000 sects of Christianity who can say what the actual truth is or isn't? It's all the eye of the beholder.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was raised Christian, an Evangelical Protestant. I was Catholic for a while as well. I've lived religious trauma. I don't "think" anything. I know. Christianity, to me, is dangerous. Its belief system, it's "saints", it's preachers, its teachers, its theologians, its doctrines and dogmas. Yes, you're right, your average Christian is not a bad person. But for every good Christian, there are many more that are not, that wish harm, that stormed the capital, that wish this country was a Christian nationalist country. Forced birthers, anti-LGBTQIA, fundamentalists who beat their children. Racists, dominionists...the Christian right has a hold on this country and they absolutely refuse to let go.

All this preacher did was say the quiet part out loud. Wanting the LGBTQIA community to be murdered is a more commonly held belief, albeit a quieter one, than many people realize. Even if they don't wish death, they still see us as "abominations" and "disordered". Even your average "nice" Christian wants us to be gone.

I'm sorry you were traumatized or hurt. I have my own experiences of being hurt in some ways by fellow members of my former parish or other Christians being rude or nasty. But that's them as people. But I just don't see them as representative of the religion. I'm a trans man, myself. Most of the LGBT people I know, if they are religious at all, are Christians and go to some church or other. I've never met a Christian in person who wanted LGBT people murdered. Even most Catholics are cool with gay people and think the Church's teachings on sexuality are ridiculous (almost no Catholics actually follow the Church's teachings on sex, anyway). I can see where you're coming from, but that's not the full scope of things.

 

[Twilight Hue]

As if this loon is representative of over 2 billion people. You can find examples of anyone saying any crazy thing.

I bet there are some real hummdingers yet to be discovered.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well, Christianity is a theological buffet. A person can select what looks tasty and ignore the rest. This is how Christianity can include pro-choice liberals all the way to right wing extremists like members of the KKK, and all believe they are saved via Jesus' sacrifice. With some 44,000 sects of Christianity who can say what the actual truth is or isn't? It's all the eye of the beholder.

It's also a solid proof there is simply no communicating God whatsoever in Christianity.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You know that I could say the same about "humanists"? I could likewise say "Christians serve as a control group to determine the effects of godless life and it's effects on people"

Yes, you could. And I wish you would. If you had a representative sample of Christians and humanists, you could see the difference between the two groups. Consider the topic we're discussing in this thread. You represent a large chunk of Christians. Many cluster with you on the homophobic end of the spectrum, which is largely unpopulated in the humanist spectrum. Who is persecuting LGBTQ in the States? You might not know, so I'll tell you: conservative, evangelical Christians. And who is objecting to this? Who is promoting love and tolerance there? Not the Christians. The humanists are, and likely several other groups, including the dharmics, Wiccans, and polytheists. Looking at these things is how we can decide what beneficial and what harmful effects various worldviews have on their adherents. It's how I know that I have no problem with any of the latter, and don't see their belief systems as destructive.

Shall we do the same for misogyny? What fraction of each of the groups just named opposes abortion rights? The answer tells you something about the effect their choice has on them.

And we can look at other parameters: anti-scientism, prayer in schools, and some things not necessarily religious but affected by religion praising faith. What fraction of anti-vaxxers do you suppose are Christian, and what fraction humanist? How about climate deniers? There are far more Christians than humanists in either group. This is how I judge all of these isms - by their fruit.

I've seen no good word in opposite direction either, so how can you say you're better than me or more loving than me?

I didn't say that. What I said was you're homophobic. The people disagreeing with you are being loving. You are not. I suggested earlier that Christians spend a little more time thinking about what others perceive Christianity to be. It's not how they see it themselves

Christians admit they're sinners, do you admit your mistakes?

To whom? I apologize when appropriate, and I try to learn from my mistakes, so, I admit them to myself. But there is no analog to confession or praying to a deity for forgiveness in humanism.

You said "Being good DOES have a behavioral test. Being Christian doesn't." Which mean you see Christianity as 100% hostile such that no good can come out of it. How is that not bigotry?

I don't know what you mean by Christianity being 100% hostile. And you are correct. I don't see much good coming out of Christianity, but that's not my point. My point is that if you tell me you're a Christian, I accept that, and also that Christianity is a source of homophobia.

How is that not bigotry? One cannot be bigoted against an ideology, only groups of people. One is a bigot if he has a destructive opinion about every member of a class of law-abiding people simply by being a member. I have not done that, but you have.

I said he is not Christian because he quotes OT law as authoritative and something which determines what Christianity should be today.
You said he's Christian. What other conclusion could one make out of this? other than you believing that Christians live by OT law.

I don't care what part of his Bible he quotes, but yes, most Christians quote the Old Testament. How often do we read that the Bible says thou shalt not kill? How often do Christians refer to Old Testament myths? Aren't your opinions about homosexuality Old Testament in origin - Leviticus I believe? None of that disqualifies a person from being a Christian

Here is Christian Dominionist Gary North bemoaning the influence that humanism has had on mankind - not enough stonings. What part of his Bible do you suppose he consulted to arrive at this opinion? :

"Why stoning? There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost...executions are community projects--not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his' duty, but rather with actual participants...That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christian."

It's also another data point you can add to your spectrum of Christians when comparing them to humanists.

You said "You are both Christian." But I do not preach execution of gay people here. So either he is wrong or I'm right or vice versa but not both.

How does that make one of you not a Christian?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm certainly not of opinion that there is no place for gay people in Christianity, you made this up obviously because you're blinded by this "pastor" who does not represent my faith or views.

I wrote, "And you are free to do as you please as you do here on this thread, including expressing your aversion to a class of people who don't conform to your religious beliefs, which is far from a respectable position." Somehow, you understood that as me telling you that you believe that there is no place for homosexuals in Christianity. And I'm not affected by this pastor at all except that he's yet another data point on the spectrum of Christians. The fact that he proposes violence and you haven't is to your credit, but not relevant to the discussion. You participate in homophobic structural violence (the word violence is metaphorical here, not literal) using words alone.

First of all he seems to belong to some American sect, but I do not belong to any sects, so how can he be same thing as me?

How can you both be Christian homophobes if only one of you belongs to a sect? Simple. By both claiming to be Christians and by both of you disparaging gays. Have you ever considered keeping that opinion to yourself, or sharing it only with other Christians? I continue to recommend that you start considering the message you are actually sending about yourself and the religion that taught you to feel that way. Even if you consider it holy because you believe that your god considers homosexuality an abomination, consider that others might consider that opinion abominable. Or maybe you don't care who you hurt or how you are perceived.

you're ignorant of Christianity.

No, you are. I'm free to see Christianity as it is with all of its warts. You exclude those warts from Christianity, saying that bad actors claiming Christianity aren't Christians. Almost any skeptic will have a more objective view of what Christianity is than most believers, and most humanists know the Christian Bible better than most believers.

Maybe you could see that better if we discussed a religion other than yours. We have some posters here on RF who are not Muslim, but seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of Islam and the Qur'an. When Muslims tell him that their religion is a religion of peace and tolerance, they go to the Qu'ran to contradict them. Who are you going to believe in a dispute like this, a Muslim or a humanist? All of the following came from non-Muslims debating Muslims. Do they not know these things, or are they trying to cover them up? Doesn't matter. Either way, they're not going to be objective about their religion. You need to go to non-Muslims (or, if you care to invest the time, to their scriptures) to get a balanced look at the Qur'an:

• 2:98 - "Allah Ado al kafarina" (God is the enemy of unbelievers").

• "Those who disbelieve will deny ... give them tidings of a painful doom." - Quran 84:22-24

• It sounds as though you are prepared to obey verse 9:111 (Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill and are killed).

• Just because a person is born into (and therefore forced into) Islam does not mean he wants to "fight in the cause of God". In fact, verse 2:216 recognizes as much, but still urges such people to fight anyway - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and ye know not".

• Verse 29:68 says, "And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?"

• Kill all the Jews: “Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him ...” Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6985. Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985):

• "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides" - Quran 5:33

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You decide who is right and whether we are same.

It's not for me to decide who is right. You are both Christian, with different views yes but neither of you can definitively state who is correct and why. It's been an endless debate going on for hundreds of years now.

 

[Sheldon]

How many pastors there are that say the same as that pastor? By what I know, he is the only one saying that and there is probably more than 1000 pastors in the world. So, <1/1000 is not in my opinion an unusual amount of hate going on in Christianity.

No true Scotsman fallacy writ large there, and the made up stats are simply hilarious.

Telling what a law book says is not hateful.

Of course it is, what spectacularly stupid claim, if someone recited Mein Kampf this would be hate speech, why should the bible get a pass?

Obviously, it is not the only thing Bible says, but still, it is not sign of hate on itself to tell what is said in the Bible.

So you don't think it's hate speech to claim people should be executed because they happen to have been born gay? I must agree to disagree, luckily there are laws against hate speech, and with very good reason.

that doesn't mean we can't say if something is against God's will. And actually, saying it can be seen as sign of love, that we care.

By claiming gay people should be executed? Love must mean something very different to you than it does me.

 

[Sheldon]

Hypocrisy in it's "purest" form.

From who, the hate mongering pastor in the story? Well yes, I'd agree with that.

 

[paradox]

Almost any skeptic will have a more objective view of what Christianity is than most believers, and most humanists know the Christian Bible better than most believers.

If you "humanists" are so good with the bible as you say and know it way better than Christians, then explain OT eschatology to me in no more than 3 sentences.
Go ahead, take your self time and show me your skills which you claim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I bet there are some real hummdingers yet to be discovered.

Get involved with an Evangelical Southern Baptist Church for a few years if you want to see some real treats of humanity. That "Bible thumper" expression is actually a literal thing, and some will see the Holocaust as Jehovah punishing the Jews.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It's not for me to decide who is right. You are both Christian, with different views yes but neither of you can definitively state who is correct and why. It's been an endless debate going on for hundreds of years now.

The screwy Bible is taken to be perfect and this is why we have so many ways to be "Christian."

 

[samtonga43]

How did you manage to reach this when I just said Christians are an elite group of Bible passage cherry pickers?

I'm sorry you were traumatized or hurt. I have my own experiences of being hurt in some ways by fellow members of my former parish or other Christians being rude or nasty. But that's them as people. But I just don't see them as representative of the religion. I'm a trans man, myself. Most of the LGBT people I know, if they are religious at all, are Christians and go to some church or other. I've never met a Christian in person who wanted LGBT people murdered. Even most Catholics are cool with gay people and think the Church's teachings on sexuality are ridiculous (almost no Catholics actually follow the Church's teachings on sex, anyway). I can see where you're coming from, but that's not the full scope of things.

Well said, Saint Frankenstein. It's just unfortunate that some atheists find it suits their agenda to 'hastily generalize'. (Note that I said 'some' atheists...)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you "humanists" are so good with the bible as you say and know it way better than Christians, then explain OT eschatology to me in no more than 3 sentences.
Go ahead, take your self time and show me your skills which you claim.

If you "humanists" are so good with the bible as you say and know it way better than Christians, then explain OT eschatology to me in no more than 3 sentences.
Go ahead, take your self time and show me your skills which you claim.

From a perspective based in Judaism as it originally was or how Christians twisted and reinvented it?

 

[paradox]

The screwy Bible is taken to be perfect and this is why we have so many ways to be "Christian."

You can think of it as of tower of babel,
God mixed up their languages and they couldn't finish the tower.

See Luke 10:21-24

Due to this secrecy I find it way more than perfect.