=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[free spirit]

Sorry my friend but this of heavenly church is pure poppycock.

POPPYCOCK!!!!!!!!!!! Ho! How wrong you are. You and your people haven't moved one bit from the position you were at 2000 years ago, because.
1) You still believe that you are the chosen people.
2) You still believe that God dowels in Temple made by the hands of men.
3) you still believe that you have to keep the laws of Moses.
4) You still believe that Jerusalem is the holy city.
5) You still believe that the promise land is a piece of real estate.
I hate to tell you Ben but God has moved on from those childish things.
1) You were chosen for one purpose, and one purpose only; and that was that through your people God would be born among men, and you people did that beautifully, Jesus Holy Spirit is the hope of Israel, He is the light of the world, He is the Redeemer and Saviour of mankind, He was a Jew, an Israelite, He was the Son of God; you all should be proud of Him.

2) Your people wants to rebuild the temple of Erode the great so God can dwell in it. But in ACTS 17: 24 - 25, we read "The God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temple made with hands; neither is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all life and breath and all things. As you know this was written by a Jew."

3) In Romans 2: 17 to 20,we read; "but if you bear the name "Jew' and rely upon the law, and boast in God, and know his will, and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth." You will find the truth in the following scriptures, we read in Romans 2: 10 to 15, "But glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law; and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them."

4) The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the holy city, For we read in Galatians 4: 22 to 28, "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. this is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; for more are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise."

5) Ask yourself why after four thousand years the "Jews" are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Could it be because, God never meant the promised land to be a piece of real estate, please consider the following two undeniable similarities. first; we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the land, and second, when they repented God brought them back into the land.
So we need to understand from the above two clearly illustrated consequences deriving from their behavior, what God is telling us, and that is, that sin causes us to move out from the grace of God, and repentance brings us back in the grace of God. Hence, the land of milk and honey has to do with the condition of our heart, to put it in a nutshell we can say; Remain in the grace of God and you are dwelling in the promise land. Yes ... even if you live in Antarctica.
As you can see, if you want to see, the mind of the Jews is in the flesh, and that will not get them anywhere with God. You may be able to reestablish Israel by force, but you are not pleasing God. And if in the future you are able to rebuild the temple were once it stood, you will be offending 1.3 billions Muslims, plus countless millions because of the destruction of a 1300 hundred years old Mosque, plus millions more for your arrogant display of impiety and injustice. The consequences of that I will leave to your imagination.

 

[sojourner]

POPPYCOCK!!!!!!!!!!! Ho! How wrong you are. You and your people haven't moved one bit from the position you were at 2000 years ago, because.
1) You still believe that you are the chosen people.
2) You still believe that God dowels in Temple made by the hands of men.
3) you still believe that you have to keep the laws of Moses.
4) You still believe that Jerusalem is the holy city.
5) You still believe that the promise land is a piece of real estate.
I hate to tell you Ben but God has moved on from those childish things.
1) You were chosen for one purpose, and one purpose only; and that was that through your people God would be born among men, and you people did that beautifully, Jesus Holy Spirit is the hope of Israel, He is the light of the world, He is the Redeemer and Saviour of mankind, He was a Jew, an Israelite, He was the Son of God; you all should be proud of Him.

2) Your people wants to rebuild the temple of Erode the great so God can dwell in it. But in ACTS 17: 24 - 25, we read "The God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temple made with hands; neither is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all life and breath and all things. As you know this was written by a Jew."

3) In Romans 2: 17 to 20,we read; "but if you bear the name "Jew' and rely upon the law, and boast in God, and know his will, and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth." You will find the truth in the following scriptures, we read in Romans 2: 10 to 15, "But glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law; and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them."

4) The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the holy city, For we read in Galatians 4: 22 to 28, "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. this is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; for more are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise."

5) Ask yourself why after four thousand years the "Jews" are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Could it be because, God never meant the promised land to be a piece of real estate, please consider the following two undeniable similarities. first; we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the land, and second, when they repented God brought them back into the land.
So we need to understand from the above two clearly illustrated consequences deriving from their behavior, what God is telling us, and that is, that sin causes us to move out from the grace of God, and repentance brings us back in the grace of God. Hence, the land of milk and honey has to do with the condition of our heart, to put it in a nutshell we can say; Remain in the grace of God and you are dwelling in the promise land. Yes ... even if you live in Antarctica.
As you can see, if you want to see, the mind of the Jews is in the flesh, and that will not get them anywhere with God. You may be able to reestablish Israel by force, but you are not pleasing God. And if in the future you are able to rebuild the temple were once it stood, you will be offending 1.3 billions Muslims, plus countless millions because of the destruction of a 1300 hundred years old Mosque, plus millions more for your arrogant display of impiety and injustice. The consequences of that I will leave to your imagination.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment here.
First of all, the Jews "invented" God (as we know God). If they believe that they're the chosen people of that God, so be it. It is scripturally sound for them.
Second, They don't believe that God dowels sic in the Temple.
Third, we should all honor the Law. The difference between Jews and Xians is that Xians believe that that Law is fulfilled in Christ.
Fourth, in what way isn't Jerusalem a holy city? It's sacred, even to Xians.
Fifth, the Promised Land has always been a "piece of real estate" to the Jews.

The Jews were chosen as God's covenant people. They were chosen to be a holy remnant.

I'd bet if the Vatican were destroyed, we'd want to rebuild it, too. "The House of God" is a powerful symbol for any religion.

Hagar's son, Ishmael, represents the Arabs -- not Jerusalem. Isaac was the son of Sarai and is the father of Israel.

That particular piece of real estate being at war has to do with the fact that it lies at the apex of the fertile crescent, midway between Babylon and Egypt, two major world powers in the ancient world. It was valuable real estate, as such.

Your sense of spiritual entitlement is appalling.

 

[free spirit]

I disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment here.

I knew that you would say something, for main stream religions today follow the Jews, because they do not like to be called antisemitic. This days is an offense to criticize Jews you know.

First of all, the Jews "invented" God (as we know God). If they believe that they're the chosen people of that God, so be it. It is scripturally sound for them.

"Invented" ho! I am sorry to hear that, obviously you have not yet experienced the presence of the spirit. He is alive you know! He will manifest his presence in your heart as soon as he finds you faithful.
And with that presence he will open up your mind to understand the scriptures, when that happen you will not need history, archeology or the understanding of old languages to know and understand his plans.

Second, They don't believe that God dowels sic in the Temple.

I am of the understanding that in the room of the Holy of Holy there was the presence of God. Am I in error?

Third, we should all honor the Law. The difference between Jews and Xians is that Xians believe that that Law is fulfilled in Christ.

Yes that was in the Old Testament, the New Testament has done away with the Old Testament, them believing it or not makes no difference to God. We read in Hebrews 8: 13, " When he said, a new covenant, he has mad the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." So you would agree that the old testament is now double the age when that was written, it has really past its prime now.

Fourth, in what way isn't Jerusalem a holy city? It's sacred, even to Xians.

When the veil of the temple was torn in two, there was no longer the presence of God in the temple. And Jesus foretold in the gospel that the city would be destroyed. God you would not destroy a holy city if he regarded it as such. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

Fifth, the Promised Land has always been a "piece of real estate" to the Jews.

God speaks in metaphor: the Grace of Christ is the promise land. The promise came to the single seed of Abraham. We read in ACTS 2: 33, " therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear," As you know, or should know that Holy Spirit = the grace of God. John 1: 17.

The Jews were chosen as God's covenant people. They were chosen to be a holy remnant.

Yes the old covenant which is no longer in force: the remnant were those Jews that accepted, and are accepting Jesus, or do you think that there is still a remnant retro guard.

I'd bet if the Vatican were destroyed, we'd want to rebuild it, too. "The House of God" is a powerful symbol for any religion.

Ho Yes! But God doesn't think like mortal men.

Hagar's son, Ishmael, represents the Arabs -- not Jerusalem. Isaac was the son of Sarai and is the father of Israel.

You are thinking with the mind of men; the truth is that Issac and Jacob stands for the spiritual believers from every race of people in the world.
Ishmael and Esau stands for the fleshly believers from all the fleshly religions of the world, yes Arabs are included, Sarai stands for the free spiritual church, and Hagar Stands for all religions of the world that observe doctrines and law, they are slaves of the law, the grace of Christ will not benefit them. Egypt is a metaphor for the world, and Pharaoh stands for the ruler of the world, in other words the Devil which oppresses us continually.

That particular piece of real estate being at war has to do with the fact that it lies at the apex of the fertile crescent, midway between Babylon and Egypt, two major world powers in the ancient world. It was valuable real estate, as such.

God did not need to choose good existing land he could make the desert flourish.

Your sense of spiritual entitlement is appalling.[/quote

]
Do not jump to judgment in the scripture there is more then meets the eye.
Your vision of God is very narrow, because you restrict him to a small band of people, to a small parcel of land, to a small part of history, God is much bigger then that you know; all the people of the world are his offspring.
The present "Jews" which by God's standard ore no longer Jews, so by been false Jews they in time will welcome the Antichrist, or "the false Christ." Read 1 Peter 2: 6 to 11, end you will know who are the chosen people now, read Romans 2: 28 - 29, and you will know who is a Jew now, read romans 9: 6 to 13, and you will know that the word of God did not fail, Read ACTS 3: 22 - 23, and you will also know the final word of God concerning all of those in the world that did not, and do not, believe in Him.
I kid you not.

 

[sojourner]

I knew that you would say something, for main stream religions today follow the Jews, because they do not like to be called antisemitic. This days is an offense to criticize Jews you know.

the Church today honors the Jews -- not because of pressure from the Politisch-Richtig Polizei, but because they are our religious forebears. We are to honor our "parents," you know.

"Invented" ho! I am sorry to hear that, obviously you have not yet experienced the presence of the spirit. He is alive you know! He will manifest his presence in your heart as soon as he finds you faithful.
And with that presence he will open up your mind to understand the scriptures, when that happen you will not need history, archeology or the understanding of old languages to know and understand his plans.

Here we go with yet another playing of the old trump card, "you obviously don't know anything about spiritual matters." You obviously don't have any idea what I have experienced spiritually, nor are you aware of my depth of faith, nor are you in any position to assess what I know about the Bible.

"Opening the mind to understand the scriptures" begins with studying and understanding the human systems that work together to produce such things in the first place. Stuff like history, anthropology, archaeology and languages. The Holy Spirit is not an adequate substitute for the tools that help us to interpret what we're reading. The "Holy Spirit," aka, "Biblical ignorance," in this case, has "led" you to make the statements you have, which are unfounded, both historically and theologically.

I am of the understanding that in the room of the Holy of Holy there was the presence of God. Am I in error?

The sanctum sanctorum housed the Ark of the Covenant, according to Tradition. Since the Temple no longer exists, God cannot be said to "dowel" there. Unless God no longer exists, either -- which, last time I asked a Jew, is not the case.

Yes that was in the Old Testament, the New Testament has done away with the Old Testament, them believing it or not makes no difference to God.

This is the kind of drivel your "Holy Spirit" has "led" you to. The New Testament didn't "do away" with the Old. It was never intended to do that. It was intended as a corollary to the OT, expounding upon, not replacing, the OT.

In that spirit, Jesus fulfills -- not supercedes -- the Law.

Yes that was in the Old Testament, the New Testament has done away with the Old Testament, them believing it or not makes no difference to God. We read in Hebrews 8: 13, " When he said, a new covenant, he has mad the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

Yeah. You have full understanding because of the "Spirit," and have no need of history, archaeology, etc.
You have succeeded in completely misunderstanding what the writer is getting at with this verse. This isn't about "doing away" with the Law. The quote, beginning 8:8b and continuing through vs. 12 (which vs. 13 expounds upon) is from Jeremiah 31:31-34. Here, Jeremiah was not speaking of "doing away with the Law." He was speaking about a new motivation for fulfilling the Law that was already known. The author of Hebrews cabbages onto this passage, pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus as more efficacious than the old way of sacrificing animals in order to expiate sin.

So you would agree that the old testament is now double the age when that was written, it has really past its prime now.

No, I don't agree with that.

When the veil of the temple was torn in two, there was no longer the presence of God in the temple. And Jesus foretold in the gospel that the city would be destroyed. God you would not destroy a holy city if he regarded it as such. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

God didn't destroy Jerusalem. Rome did. (Psssst: This is where history comes in handy).

God speaks in metaphor:

The writer may very well speak in metaphor. But God didn't write the references to the "Promised Land." While the reference may be metaphorical, that metaphor is experienced in the physical world as "real estate." And that's how the Jews understood it. Since they were the ones who produced the writings that deal with the "Promised Land," I'd say that they're the best ones to turn to for interpretation.

the Grace of Christ is the promise land.

To you -- but not to the Jews. If you wanna believe that, fine. But don't berate the Jews for thinking "real estate." It was their idea to begin with.

The promise came to the single seed of Abraham. We read in ACTS 2: 33, " therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear," As you know, or should know that Holy Spirit = the grace of God. John 1: 17.

Again, not according to the Jews.

Yes the old covenant which is no longer in force: the remnant were those Jews that accepted, and are accepting Jesus, or do you think that there is still a remnant retro guard.

They would think of post-temple Judaism as the "remnant." For them (I believe) a "new covenant" as spoken of in Jeremiah, would be a way of imparting God's favor through a method other than sacrifice (since the place of sacrifice no longer exists). I don't believe Jews conceptualize "grace" in the way we do.

Ho Yes! But God doesn't think like mortal men.

We're not talking about "what God thinks" here. We're talking about what we think.

You are thinking with the mind of men; the truth is that Issac and Jacob stands for the spiritual believers from every race of people in the world.
Ishmael and Esau stands for the fleshly believers from all the fleshly religions of the world, yes Arabs are included, Sarai stands for the free spiritual church, and Hagar Stands for all religions of the world that observe doctrines and law, they are slaves of the law, the grace of Christ will not benefit them. Egypt is a metaphor for the world, and Pharaoh stands for the ruler of the world, in other words the Devil which oppresses us continually.

What a wonderful example of eisegesis. Thank you for proving my argument!
None -- repeat: none -- of this is what the writers had in mind. We have to think like human beings, because human beings wrote this stuff from a human POV. Isaac and Jacob are types for Israel. In fact, Jacob's name was changed to Israel, which means, "striving with God." Only when you understand the genres and literary devices, and crawl into the world view of the ancient Canaanite, can you understand what the writer is really saying. You're waaaaaay off the mark here. Maybe that's the meaning you ascribe to these things, but it's certainly not the meaning the authors ascribed.

God did not need to choose good existing land he could make the desert flourish.

What in the world does this have to do with the reasons for Israel being at war?

Your vision of God is very narrow, because you restrict him to a small band of people, to a small parcel of land, to a small part of history, God is much bigger then that you know; all the people of the world are his offspring.

No, the POV of the writers is specific. In order to understand what they mean, we have to think in the same specifics. Of course I believe that God is bigger than that. But they didn't. And to impose your perspective onto the writers is a no-no. We have to take their perspective and honor it for what it is, using it as the foundation for our belief. Then we can expand upon it, and build the tower of our belief on that foundation.

The present "Jews" which by God's standard ore no longer Jews, so by been false Jews they in time will welcome the Antichrist, or "the false Christ." Read 1 Peter 2: 6 to 11, end you will know who are the chosen people now, read Romans 2: 28 - 29, and you will know who is a Jew now, read romans 9: 6 to 13, and you will know that the word of God did not fail, Read ACTS 3: 22 - 23, and you will also know the final word of God concerning all of those in the world that did not, and do not, believe in Him.
I kid you not.

Oh brother!
So Jews aren't "real" Jews anymore -- but you are.
What a load of crap.

The text is what it is. It says what it says. If we're to read out of the text what it says, we can't be looking for stuff that's not in there. Proof-texting doesn't coax meaning out of the scriptures. But it does create the illusion that there's more there "than meets the eye." I'll bet you probably believe in the "Bible Code," too. And conspiracy theories. it's fun but it's not real.

 

[free spirit]

the Church today honors the Jews -- not because of pressure from the Politisch-Richtig Polizei, but because they are our religious forebears. We are to honor our "parents," you know.

Yes you are honoring the descendent's of Esau, I honor the descendent's of Jacob.

Here we go with yet another playing of the old trump card, "you obviously don't know anything about spiritual matters." You obviously don't have any idea what I have experienced spiritually, nor are you aware of my depth of faith, nor are you in any position to assess what I know about the Bible.

You know your own heart, 2 Corinthians 10: 12, is a useful tool if it is used honestly.

"Opening the mind to understand the scriptures" begins with studying and understanding the human systems that work together to produce such things in the first place. Stuff like history, anthropology, archaeology and languages. The Holy Spirit is not an adequate substitute for the tools that help us to interpret what we're reading. The "Holy Spirit," aka, "Biblical ignorance," in this case, has "led" you to make the statements you have, which are unfounded, both historically and theologically.

Spiritual matters are above earthly matters, and they are only understood by the spirit of God, of which I by his grace am a partaker of.

The sanctum sanctorum housed the Ark of the Covenant, according to Tradition. Since the Temple no longer exists, God cannot be said to "dowel" there. Unless God no longer exists, either -- which, last time I asked a Jew, is not the case.

I am not in error then.

This is the kind of drivel your "Holy Spirit" has "led" you to. The New Testament didn't "do away" with the Old. It was never intended to do that. It was intended as a corollary to the OT, expounding upon, not replacing, the OT.

When things change there is a transitional period, and that transitional period has expired a long time ago.

In that spirit, Jesus fulfills -- not supercedes -- the Law.

The law are no longer in a book, they are in the believer's heart, we also fulfill the law by being in his grace.

Yeah. You have full understanding because of the "Spirit," and have no need of history, archaeology, etc.
You have succeeded in completely misunderstanding what the writer is getting at with this verse. This isn't about "doing away" with the Law. The quote, beginning 8:8b and continuing through vs. 12 (which vs. 13 expounds upon) is from Jeremiah 31:31-34. Here, Jeremiah was not speaking of "doing away with the Law." He was speaking about a new motivation for fulfilling the Law that was already known. The author of Hebrews cabbages onto this passage, pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus as more efficacious than the old way of sacrificing animals in order to expiate sin.

Yes Paul in Hebrews is explaining to the Jews what Jesus did; again the law was not done away with, in the contrary by being in his grace we establish the law.

No, I don't agree with that.
God didn't destroy Jerusalem. Rome did. (Psssst: This is where history comes in handy).

there are always consequences for braking the law, or the will of God; we read in Luke 19: 41 - 42, and when he approached, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes." Obviously they were not a peace with God.

The writer may very well speak in metaphor. But God didn't write the references to the "Promised Land." While the reference may be metaphorical, that metaphor is experienced in the physical world as "real estate." And that's how the Jews understood it. Since they were the ones who produced the writings that deal with the "Promised Land," I'd say that they're the best ones to turn to for interpretation.

Do you trust those who had the Lord of glory killed? Are you out of your mind ?

To you -- but not to the Jews. If you wanna believe that, fine. But don't berate the Jews for thinking "real estate." It was their idea to begin with.

They are fleshly, for they like Esau did not appreciate their birth right to the blessing, they forfeited it by desiring earthly matters.

Again, not according to the Jews.
They would think of post-temple Judaism as the "remnant." For them (I believe) a "new covenant" as spoken of in Jeremiah, would be a way of imparting God's favor through a method other than sacrifice (since the place of sacrifice no longer exists). I don't believe Jews conceptualize "grace" in the way we do.

If anything they are better placed to understand than a am, but they still refuse to move on.

We're not talking about "what God thinks" here. We're talking about what we think.

If what I think about this is not of God it is worthless and futile to continue.

What a wonderful example of eisegesis. Thank you for proving my argument!
None -- repeat: none -- of this is what the writers had in mind. We have to think like human beings, because human beings wrote this stuff from a human POV. Isaac and Jacob are types for Israel. In fact, Jacob's name was changed to Israel, which means, "striving with God." Only when you understand the genres and literary devices, and crawl into the world view of the ancient Canaanite, can you understand what the writer is really saying. You're waaaaaay off the mark here. Maybe that's the meaning you ascribe to these things, but it's certainly not the meaning the authors ascribed.

You have forgotten the Esau is there in their midst you know, for his spirit did not disappear.

What in the world does this have to do with the reasons for Israel being at war?

War is the Devil tool of trade.

No, the POV of the writers is specific. In order to understand what they mean, we have to think in the same specifics. Of course I believe that God is bigger than that. But they didn't. And to impose your perspective onto the writers is a no-no. We have to take their perspective and honor it for what it is, using it as the foundation for our belief. Then we can expand upon it, and build the tower of our belief on that foundation.

My foundation is Christ, I will build upon him.

Oh brother!
So Jews aren't "real" Jews anymore -- but you are.
What a load of crap.

Yes you understood correctly I am a spiritual Jew and it is no crap.

The text is what it is. It says what it says. If we're to read out of the text what it says, we can't be looking for stuff that's not in there. Proof-texting doesn't coax meaning out of the scriptures. But it does create the illusion that there's more there "than meets the eye." I'll bet you probably believe in the "Bible Code," too. And conspiracy theories. it's fun but it's not real.

Now that is crap! But I am free for I have the mind of Christ

 

[Ben Masada]

Thief here...I never said He was the only one to suffer on the cross.

Have you ever said that there were others? I never heard.

Are you having imaginary discussions?

No, but I am imagining discussions that must be touched upon and you never do.

And if we include Josephus...we'll have to include many other religious writers.
This could take a lengthy bit of writing.

Go ahead. If it makes sense to me, I am all ears.

I sure I can make my point...well enough.
It may interest you to know...not all were scourged...and not all were nailed.

I am ready to hear that the Romans did this with Jesus even after finding him innocent as you claim. As you see, you are starting not making sense agan.

Jesus got both because...He was well known.
The pharisees and local Roman authority were not willing or prepared, for a large gathering should word spread quickly, and the usual three day routine be done.

As I expected. Complete nonsense, when Pilate didn't even want to crucify him. Then, besides crucifixion adds the scourging. You are guiding me to the point that this never happened at all.

That's right...three days. The typical convict was simply fastened to the cross, and died slowly...usually of thirst...or exposure to the elements.
No one was allowed to touch the condemned.

Great! Pilate would simply fast the criminals to the cross and nail the innocent. Every time you speak, you make me believe that the whole thing was fabricated by the gospel writers 50+ years later.

This type of execution brought loud...and unpleasant...sounds of agony.
People passing by, on their way into the city, would understand...
the Romans were serious about their laws.

Yes, I can see. On the innocent. But the criminals would get special treatment.

In the case of the Carpenter...the authorities were not interested in a spectacle. They simply wanted Him dead...quickly...under Roman law.
The beating was intended to kill Him.
That didn't go well....for the authorities...or Him.
The nailing induces severe pain...and shock. Death becomes eminent.

And Josephus forgot to write down in his books that Pilate was a servant of the Jews to do whatever they demanded. I wonder how I missed that.

 

[Ben Masada]

POPPYCOCK!!!!!!!!!!! Ho! How wrong you are. You and your people haven't moved one bit from the position you were at 2000 years ago, because.

And you are still stuck in the Dark Ages.

1) You still believe that you are the chosen people.

It is still written in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle.

2) You still believe that God dowels in Temple made by the hands of men.

God is not limited to space or time. God is Incorporeal. Remember? (John 4:24)

3) you still believe that you have to keep the laws of Moses.

What are laws made for? Try not to keep the laws of your Country to see what will happen.

4) You still believe that Jerusalem is the holy city.

It is still written in the Scriptures.

5) You still believe that the promise land is a piece of real estate.
I hate to tell you Ben but God has moved on from those childish things.

Yes, I think you are right. He has moved on from strict Monotheism into the Polytheism of Greek Mythology of conceiving a Jew in the womb of a woman without the help of a human father.

1) You were chosen for one purpose, and one purpose only; and that was that through your people God would be born among men, and you people did that beautifully, Jesus Holy Spirit is the hope of Israel, He is the light of the world, He is the Redeemer and Saviour of mankind, He was a Jew, an Israelite, He was the Son of God; you all should be proud of Him.

You have forgotten that Jesus was born in Israel and not in Greece.

2) Your people wants to rebuild the temple of Erode the great so God can dwell in it. But in ACTS 17: 24 - 25, we read "The God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temple made with hands; neither is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all life and breath and all things. As you know this was written by a Jew."

Luke was not Jewish. He was one of the Greek disciples of Paul with the purpose to bring Greek Mythology into Judaism.



4) The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the holy city, For we read in Galatians 4: 22 to 28, "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. this is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; for more are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise."

This is the "Carta Magna" of Replacement Theology, which has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.

 

[free spirit]

POPPYCOCK!!!!!!!!!!! Ho! How wrong you are. You and your people haven't moved one bit from the position you were at 2000 years ago, because.

And you are still stuck in the Dark Ages.

1) You still believe that you are the chosen people.

It is still written in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle.

2) You still believe that God dowels in Temple made by the hands of men.

God is not limited to space or time. God is Incorporeal. Remember? (John 4:24)

3) you still believe that you have to keep the laws of Moses.

What are laws made for? Try not to keep the laws of your Country to see what will happen.

4) You still believe that Jerusalem is the holy city.

It is still written in the Scriptures.

5) You still believe that the promise land is a piece of real estate.
I hate to tell you Ben but God has moved on from those childish things.

Yes, I think you are right. He has moved on from strict Monotheism into the Polytheism of Greek Mythology of conceiving a Jew in the womb of a woman without the help of a human father.

1) You were chosen for one purpose, and one purpose only; and that was that through your people God would be born among men, and you people did that beautifully, Jesus Holy Spirit is the hope of Israel, He is the light of the world, He is the Redeemer and Saviour of mankind, He was a Jew, an Israelite, He was the Son of God; you all should be proud of Him.

You have forgotten that Jesus was born in Israel and not in Greece.

2) Your people wants to rebuild the temple of Erode the great so God can dwell in it. But in ACTS 17: 24 - 25, we read "The God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temple made with hands; neither is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all life and breath and all things. As you know this was written by a Jew."

Luke was not Jewish. He was one of the Greek disciples of Paul with the purpose to bring Greek Mythology into Judaism.



4) The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the holy city, For we read in Galatians 4: 22 to 28, "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. this is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; for more are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise."

This is the "Carta Magna" of Replacement Theology, which has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.

No Ben, no antisemitism here, for all human beens are my potential brothers and sisters; if what I say offends you then I am sorry, for I have to learn yet how to tell the truth without offending, We all know that the truth can be cruel, if you can show me a way that tells the truth without compromising the truth I like to know about it.

 

[sojourner]

Yes you are honoring the descendent's of Esau, I honor the descendent's of Jacob.

Whatever. The text is clear about who Jacob is. Proper exegesis will show that very, very quickly and easily. According to Genesis, Jacob is Israel. You can't superimpose NT theology and viewpoint upon OT texts. It just doesn't work that way.

You know your own heart, 2 Corinthians 10: 12, is a useful tool if it is used honestly.

The operative term here is "honestly." Good sense has been shown. You simply don't want to hear it, and you're comparing your "understanding" with mine.
Sheesh!

Spiritual matters are above earthly matters, and they are only understood by the spirit of God, of which I by his grace am a partaker of.

Problem is, critical reading of the Bible for context isn't a spiritual matter. It's an earthly matter. Only when that job has been done can one proceed to a more spiritual, interpretational reading. You're putting the cart before the horse.

I am not in error then.

You are in error. The Jews don't think God lives in the Holy of Holies, for that no longer exists. Since God does exist, God cannot live in what does not exist.

When things change there is a transitional period, and that transitional period has expired a long time ago.

Things always change. Things are always in flux. Even scripture should be! That's what keeps them alive and relevant, instead of sitting dead in a museum. That's why midrash and commentary are so important, as well as scholastic, critical reading. Because we are in a different place now than we were 2000 years ago.

The law are no longer in a book, they are in the believer's heart, we also fulfill the law by being in his grace.

We believe that the Law was never in a book. Especially the Bible. Neither did the Jews. Most of them couldn't read. Most of them had the stuff memorized -- in their hearts. The written scripture was only intended as an aid to memory. What's important isn't medium, it's intent.

Yes Paul in Hebrews is explaining to the Jews what Jesus did; again the law was not done away with, in the contrary by being in his grace we establish the law.

But, again, having specifically to do with the law of sacrifice -- not "The Law" as a body of spiritual conduct.

there are always consequences for braking the law, or the will of God; we read in Luke 19: 41 - 42, and when he approached, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes." Obviously they were not a peace with God.

Obviously, they weren't at peace with Rome. Do you have any idea how many crucifixions were carried out for insurrection? Do you know the significance that peace with their oppressors has for Judeans in that time?

Do you trust those who had the Lord of glory killed? Are you out of your mind ?

Who is out of who's mind here? Don't you know that the OT was written down hundreds of years before Jesus appeared??? Those writers had nothing to do with Jesus' death. They didn't even know about Jesus.

They are fleshly, for they like Esau did not appreciate their birth right to the blessing, they forfeited it by desiring earthly matters.

You can't lay that kind of spiritual judgment on either them, or Esau. First of all, yes, the Jewish faith is quite "earthy." It's incarnational. Why do you think the creation stories were written as they were? Why do you think the Incarnation of Jesus -- God made flesh -- Emmanuel -- God with us -- is such an important idea for them? you really need to remember your roots. Without such earthy religion, God would have never been born in human likeness.

If you remember the story correctly, Esau turned nothing down -- it was stolen from him through outright deceit and blindness.

If anything they are better placed to understand than a am, but they still refuse to move on.

When two bodies are in motion at the same rate, the perspective is that neither is in motion, relative to the other.

If what I think about this is not of God it is worthless and futile to continue.

Amen to that! Your assessment here is correct. It is futile to continue along this line of understading.

You have forgotten the Esau is there in their midst you know, for his spirit did not disappear.

Esau was not present at the Jabbok, and did not appear until Jacob had already become Israel.

War is the Devil tool of trade.

These are not spiritual wars. They may carry spiritual meaning for the Jews, but they are battles over strategically-prime real estate.

My foundation is Christ, I will build upon him.

And how do you form a foundation upon Christ? At least partially by what is written by culturally-different human beings, removed from us by thousands of miles and years. Even a construction worker understand the mix of gravel and aggregate before pouring a foundation for a building.

Yes you understood correctly I am a spiritual Jew and it is no crap.

I know lots of people who would disagree with you. They all read from right to left.

Now that is crap! But I am free for I have the mind of Christ

Even Christ read the texts critically -- from right to left, I might add.

 

[sojourner]

No Ben, no antisemitism here, for all human beens are my potential brothers and sisters; if what I say offends you then I am sorry, for I have to learn yet how to tell the truth without offending, We all know that the truth can be cruel, if you can show me a way that tells the truth without compromising the truth I like to know about it.

The Jews would more correctly be described as your potential parents.

 

[free spirit]

The Jews would more correctly be described as your potential parents.

To do that is like to be in submission to them, they love to be the chosen people again. But I love my brothers in Christ, and I endure the crap from those in opposition, but I only submit to one Jew, my Lord and father.

 

[free spirit]

Whatever. The text is clear about who Jacob is. Proper exegesis will show that very, very quickly and easily. According to Genesis, Jacob is Israel. You can't superimpose NT theology and viewpoint upon OT texts. It just doesn't work that way.

The operative term here is "honestly." Good sense has been shown. You simply don't want to hear it, and you're comparing your "understanding" with mine.
Sheesh!

Problem is, critical reading of the Bible for context isn't a spiritual matter. It's an earthly matter. Only when that job has been done can one proceed to a more spiritual, interpretational reading. You're putting the cart before the horse.

You are in error. The Jews don't think God lives in the Holy of Holies, for that no longer exists. Since God does exist, God cannot live in what does not exist.

Things always change. Things are always in flux. Even scripture should be! That's what keeps them alive and relevant, instead of sitting dead in a museum. That's why midrash and commentary are so important, as well as scholastic, critical reading. Because we are in a different place now than we were 2000 years ago.

We believe that the Law was never in a book. Especially the Bible. Neither did the Jews. Most of them couldn't read. Most of them had the stuff memorized -- in their hearts. The written scripture was only intended as an aid to memory. What's important isn't medium, it's intent.

But, again, having specifically to do with the law of sacrifice -- not "The Law" as a body of spiritual conduct.

Obviously, they weren't at peace with Rome. Do you have any idea how many crucifixions were carried out for insurrection? Do you know the significance that peace with their oppressors has for Judeans in that time?

Who is out of who's mind here? Don't you know that the OT was written down hundreds of years before Jesus appeared??? Those writers had nothing to do with Jesus' death. They didn't even know about Jesus.

You can't lay that kind of spiritual judgment on either them, or Esau. First of all, yes, the Jewish faith is quite "earthy." It's incarnational. Why do you think the creation stories were written as they were? Why do you think the Incarnation of Jesus -- God made flesh -- Emmanuel -- God with us -- is such an important idea for them? you really need to remember your roots. Without such earthy religion, God would have never been born in human likeness.

If you remember the story correctly, Esau turned nothing down -- it was stolen from him through outright deceit and blindness.

When two bodies are in motion at the same rate, the perspective is that neither is in motion, relative to the other.

Amen to that! Your assessment here is correct. It is futile to continue along this line of understading.

Esau was not present at the Jabbok, and did not appear until Jacob had already become Israel.

These are not spiritual wars. They may carry spiritual meaning for the Jews, but they are battles over strategically-prime real estate.

And how do you form a foundation upon Christ? At least partially by what is written by culturally-different human beings, removed from us by thousands of miles and years. Even a construction worker understand the mix of gravel and aggregate before pouring a foundation for a building.

I know lots of people who would disagree with you. They all read from right to left.

Even Christ read the texts critically -- from right to left, I might add.

There is only one explanation for all your stereotype explanations and that is found in the book of ACTS 28: 25 to 27, for Paul also called together the leading men of the Jews to explain his position; for we read, "And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying. "Go to this people and say, "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, ans I should heal them.'" To believe in God is commendable but to became a religious person you are inadvertently closing your mind to the Holy Spirit teachings.
You should reconsider your position for your allegiance should only be to the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Pope called the Jews the older brothers, you have gone one step further by calling the fathers. If that is the way you fill what can I say?

 

[sojourner]

To do that is like to be in submission to them, they love to be the chosen people again. But I love my brothers in Christ, and I endure the crap from those in opposition, but I only submit to one Jew, my Lord and father.

No, to do that is to be indebted to them. We're grown children now, and we've left the nest, so we're no longer under their jurisdiction.

 

[sojourner]

There is only one explanation for all your stereotype explanations and that is found in the book of ACTS 28: 25 to 27, for Paul also called together the leading men of the Jews to explain his position; for we read, "And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying. "Go to this people and say, "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, ans I should heal them.'" To believe in God is commendable but to became a religious person you are inadvertently closing your mind to the Holy Spirit teachings.

YOu need to concern yourself with your own eyes, before you begin to worry about mine. The only explanation here is proof-texting and eisegesis on your part, which has led you to an incorrect "Biblical" conclusion about my spiritual condition.

You should reconsider your position for your allegiance should only be to the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do we build allegiance with Jesus? By living in solidarity with all humanity.

The Pope called the Jews the older brothers,

didn't know you were Roman Catholic. Thought that whole "Pope" thing was "man-made," according to you.

If that is the way you fill what can I say?

"Gee! Maybe I'm mistaken" leaps to mind here...

 

[Ben Masada]

No Ben, no antisemitism here, for all human beens are my potential brothers and sisters; if what I say offends you then I am sorry, for I have to learn yet how to tell the truth without offending, We all know that the truth can be cruel, if you can show me a way that tells the truth without compromising the truth I like to know about it.

What is the Truth? Do you happen to know what is the Truth? Let's hear from Jesus himself in John 17:17. "Thy Word is the Truth." Now, whom did God give His Word to? Now, read Psalm 147:19,20. "To Israel only gave God His Word, and to no other people on earth." How much do you need to persuade yourself of where is the Truth to be found?

 

[Ben Masada]

To do that is like to be in submission to them, they love to be the chosen people again. But I love my brothers in Christ, and I endure the crap from those in opposition, but I only submit to one Jew, my Lord and father.

We are NOT the chosen People. For a people to be chosen, they have to be picked up from among a group of other peoples. We like to think of ourselves as a special creation as a result of a Divine decision many years before we were born.

For example, when Elohim promised Noah that He would never allow another catastrophe of the size of the Flood, it was in His designs to effect a new creation to guarantee His promise to Noah. That creation was Israel, who came about many years later. That's why Jeremiah said under Divine inspiration that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will fail and catastrophes will be the order of the day. (Jer. 31:35-37)

 

[free spirit]

TO
Ben Masada

You have asked me "What is truth" Pilate also asked Jesus the same question, which was answered without been seen to be answered so relax and enjoy.


WHAT IS TRUTH?





All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable. As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimportant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God’s universal unchangeable truth.

You may well ask, what is God’s universal unchangeable truth? Bear with me for a moment, and God willing I will try to point it out to you. In the gospel of John 18 – 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus. It unfolds in the following manner: “Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorium, and summoned Jesus, and said to him: Are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priest delivered you up to me; what have you done?” Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm.”
Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”

If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.

Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)

And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?

But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.

And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”

What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.

Glory to God

 

[free spirit]

We are NOT the chosen People. For a people to be chosen, they have to be picked up from among a group of other peoples. We like to think of ourselves as a special creation as a result of a Divine decision many years before we were born.

For example, when Elohim promised Noah that He would never allow another catastrophe of the size of the Flood, it was in His designs to effect a new creation to guarantee His promise to Noah. That creation was Israel, who came about many years later. That's why Jeremiah said under Divine inspiration that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will fail and catastrophes will be the order of the day. (Jer. 31:35-37)[/quote

]

Yes Ben in the New Testament there is the suggestion of the end times, the beginning of that is when the Holy Spirit is removed from among the people, so the evil one has no hindrance to his plans and can lead the people to do wicked things. for we read in
2ND. THESSALONIANS 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him,
2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power ands signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be SANCTIFIED.
11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[free spirit]

Whatever. The text is clear about who Jacob is. Proper exegesis will show that very, very quickly and easily. According to Genesis, Jacob is Israel. You can't superimpose NT theology and viewpoint upon OT texts. It just doesn't work that way.

yes you are correct Jacob is Israel, but there is a fly in the soup as it were, and the fly is Esau.

The operative term here is "honestly." Good sense has been shown. You simply don't want to hear it, and you're comparing your "understanding" with mine.
Sheesh!

No comment.

Problem is, critical reading of the Bible for context isn't a spiritual matter. It's an earthly matter. Only when that job has been done can one proceed to a more spiritual, interpretational reading. You're putting the cart before the horse.

The scriptures can only be spiritually interpreted.

You are in error. The Jews don't think God lives in the Holy of Holies, for that no longer exists. Since God does exist, God cannot live in what does not exist.

Yes God cannot be placed in one place, I meant his presence was felt in there.

Things always change. Things are always in flux. Even scripture should be! That's what keeps them alive and relevant, instead of sitting dead in a museum. That's why midrash and commentary are so important, as well as scholastic, critical reading. Because we are in a different place now than we were 2000 years ago.

Our way of doing things may change, but our spiritual needs never changes, therefore the word of God never need to change.

We believe that the Law was never in a book. Especially the Bible. Neither did the Jews. Most of them couldn't read. Most of them had the stuff memorized -- in their hearts. The written scripture was only intended as an aid to memory. What's important isn't medium, it's intent.

You are correct, strange as it may seem to you, I find that the scriptures only confirms what the Lord has put in my heart, it took me some time to trust my intuition.

But, again, having specifically to do with the law of sacrifice -- not "The Law" as a body of spiritual conduct.

believing in the sacrifice for the atonement of sin, was meant to be a forerunner for the sacrifice of the Christ. the sacrifice is separate from the law of spiritual conduct, and so it is today, for you can believe in the sacrifice of Christ, with or without keeping the spiritual laws. But we must do both.

Obviously, they weren't at peace with Rome. Do you have any idea how many crucifixions were carried out for insurrection? Do you know the significance that peace with their oppressors has for Judeans in that time?

Rome went into Judea in 60 BC by invitation from the Jews, to put a stop to a civil was between two brothers making claim to the throne. the Romans brought to Judea prosperity and freedom of religion ; this freedom of religion, the Jews found increasingly offensive to their own belief, In 70 AD some Greeks sacrificed a chicken in front of a synagogue in city of Cesarean that was the spark that give rise to the first Roman - Jewish war.

Who is out of who's mind here? Don't you know that the OT was written down hundreds of years before Jesus appeared??? Those writers had nothing to do with Jesus' death. They didn't even know about Jesus.

They did not know about Jesus, but they knew about the coming messiah, so they wrote about him in faith, and they were correct for those writing describes him and his deeds to perfection.

You can't lay that kind of spiritual judgment on either them, or Esau. First of all, yes, the Jewish faith is quite "earthy." It's incarnational. Why do you think the creation stories were written as they were? Why do you think the Incarnation of Jesus -- God made flesh -- Emmanuel -- God with us -- is such an important idea for them? you really need to remember your roots. Without such earthy religion, God would have never been born in human likeness.

It is all in God's plan. The Jews did their bit very well, and God did his bit better. therefore a lot of spiritual Jews believed and were counted among the saints, they were the Jacobs of that time; on the other hand there was the Jews that had the spirit of Esau, they did not believe even to this day.

If you remember the story correctly, Esau turned nothing down -- it was stolen from him through outright deceit and blindness.

Yes Jacob deceived Issac with the help of his mother, but Esau had exchanged his birth right for some porridge for he was so hungry.

When two bodies are in motion at the same rate, the perspective is that neither is in motion, relative to the other.

a physical truth.

Amen to that! Your assessment here is correct. It is futile to continue along this line of understading.

No comment.

Esau was not present at the Jabbok, and did not appear until Jacob had already become Israel.

These are not spiritual wars. They may carry spiritual meaning for the Jews, but they are battles over strategically-prime real estate.

All things of this world will come to a firing end, so why kill each other to posses them.

And how do you form a foundation upon Christ? At least partially by what is written by culturally-different human beings, removed from us by thousands of miles and years. Even a construction worker understand the mix of gravel and aggregate before pouring a foundation for a building.

The foundation trench is dug by having faith in the doctrines and laws of our religion, these will lead us to Christ which is the pouring of our foundation, "the rock" and then we build upon him our Christ's like life.

I know lots of people who would disagree with you. They all read from right to left.

Even Christ read the texts critically -- from right to left, I might add.

I believe that the Chinese read from top to bottom but God invented them all.

 

[sojourner]

is Israel. You can't superimpose NT theology and viewpoint upon OT texts. It just doesn't work that way. yes you are correct Jacob is Israel, but there is a fly in the soup as it were, and the fly is Esau.

Esau is quite possibly a literary construct.

The scriptures can only be spiritually interpreted.

Only after they've been thoroughly exegeted in regular cognitive fashion.

Yes God cannot be placed in one place, I meant his presence was felt in there.

God can be felt in lots of places. What's so special about the Holy of Holies, as far as "feeling" goes?

Our way of doing things may change, but our spiritual needs never changes, therefore the word of God never need to change.

The "Word of God" was very fluid until the canon was finally closed in the 5th century. Our spiritual needs do change as we change, and our cognitive needs change even faster.

I find that the scriptures only confirms what the Lord has put in my heart, it took me some time to trust my intuition.

I rather suspect that what was "put in your heart" came through some source other than "direct from God. Only prophets can claim that distinction.

believing in the sacrifice for the atonement of sin, was meant to be a forerunner for the sacrifice of the Christ.

No it wasn't. Ask any Jew.

They did not know about Jesus, but they knew about the coming messiah, so they wrote about him in faith, and they were correct for those writing describes him and his deeds to perfection.

Not to the Jews. Ask any of them. They'll be happy to tell you.

It is all in God's plan.

I doubt that.

a lot of spiritual Jews believed and were counted among the saints, they were the Jacobs of that time;

They were all "Jacob," since Jacob is Israel.

on the other hand there was the Jews that had the spirit of Esau, they did not believe even to this day.

Esau has nothing to do with it, from the writer's POV.

The foundation trench is dug by having faith in the doctrines and laws of our religion, these will lead us to Christ which is the pouring of our foundation, "the rock" and then we build upon him our Christ's like life.

HOw do you think we understand these ancient trenches? By honest cognitive study.

I believe that the Chinese read from top to bottom but God invented them all.

And humans invented the Bible.