=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[Solveigh79]

Hey there,
I think that really Jesus was trying to see how much faith this lady had, when she said yes, but even the dogs lick from their masters table. We have to look at our condition sometimes and say or cry out to Jesus and say Lord I know I am not where I need to be with you BUT I NEED YOU LORD!! I need your grace and mercy and LOVE, I need you to help me and fix my situation. When the friends of the man on the bad came and broke open the roof to get to Jesus that was a test of their faith! Jesus calls our hand sometimes and says, Look at your heart, where is it? What are your motives, are you really willing to seek me to get your needs met, do you realize I came to the Jew first then to the Greek, ( and we all know that we Gentiles were at one time considered dogs to the Jew because we did not adhere to the strict customs that they do. Where is our heart? she was willing to swallow her pride for her child and say YES! I understand I am not where I should be with you Lord but I still want my child to be whole and well. We have to swallow our pride and realize who we are dealing with, He knows who he is, HE IS the Son of the Living God! We can't come to him any old kind of way, unless we submit to him.

 

[Ben Masada]

Hey there,
I think that really Jesus was trying to see how much faith this lady had, when she said yes, but even the dogs lick from their masters table. We have to look at our condition sometimes and say or cry out to Jesus and say Lord I know I am not where I need to be with you BUT I NEED YOU LORD!! I need your grace and mercy and LOVE, I need you to help me and fix my situation. When the friends of the man on the bad came and broke open the roof to get to Jesus that was a test of their faith! Jesus calls our hand sometimes and says, Look at your heart, where is it? What are your motives, are you really willing to seek me to get your needs met, do you realize I came to the Jew first then to the Greek, ( and we all know that we Gentiles were at one time considered dogs to the Jew because we did not adhere to the strict customs that they do. Where is our heart? she was willing to swallow her pride for her child and say YES! I understand I am not where I should be with you Lord but I still want my child to be whole and well. We have to swallow our pride and realize who we are dealing with, He knows who he is, HE IS the Son of the Living God! We can't come to him any old kind of way, unless we submit to him.

There was never a time when Gentiles were considered as dogs by the Jews. It's very odd that the first time in my life I have read about this is in the NT, and of all men in the world, from the lips of Jesus.

It's very hard to believe that Jesus had to make that Gentile woman feel like a dog in order to grant her what she needed. I think the gospel writer wanted to show that Jesus was reflecting a Jewish attitude of the time, but the antisemitic attempt backfired. Today Christians have to live with this shame because they can't erase what has been written.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Let's try giving the Carpenter some credit for having brains.

Picture yourself as the leader of a small group of followers.
As the weeks go by, turning into months, turning into years...
your followers disappoint you...repeatedly.

One great disappointment is their continual snobbery toward anyone who isn't a Jew...a gentile.
They really push at being Jewish...and really push about a hands off
approach to anyone who isn't.

So...when someone...less than they are...comes asking for help...
He displays their attitude...as if He shares it.

But when the poor woman...pleading for the life of her daughter...replies with wisdom... and humility...
He turns full about...and displays His true self.

His disciples are shamed by the deed, for now they can see themselves,
as they truly are.

 

[Ben Masada]

not necessarily, Ben.

what we have is not filler, or nonsense. what we have are the recountings of the sayings and doings of Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the Messiah. Peter, one of Jesus' closest disciples, would have been an instrumental source of reference. what is neat about the Gospels is the style. it's like there's a camera there, recording details, names, places, and numbers. it's a great amount of detail, and going by the belief that in Jesus God breaks through into our world in a tangible way, not at all incredible.

Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. He knew from Isaiah, the Prophet that the Messiah is Israel, the People. If Jesus had claimed that he was the Messiah, his disciples would have proclaimed so in Jerusalem where they were headquartered for almost 30 years and coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, when Paul showed up with the message and nearly got killed for preaching apostasy. How about the disciples of Jesus? I tell you that they were as surprised about Paul's gospel as were all the local Jews.

 

[Ben Masada]

Thief here...Let's try giving the Carpenter some credit for having brains.

Picture yourself as the leader of a small group of followers.
As the weeks go by, turning into months, turning into years...
your followers disappoint you...repeatedly.

One great disappointment is their continual snobbery toward anyone who isn't a Jew...a gentile.
They really push at being Jewish...and really push about a hands off
approach to anyone who isn't.

So...when someone...less than they are...comes asking for help...
He displays their attitude...as if He shares it.

But when the poor woman...pleading for the life of her daughter...replies with wisdom... and humility...
He turns full about...and displays His true self.

His disciples are shamed by the deed, for now they can see themselves,
as they truly are.

Hi Thief, sorry to remind you, you have left out a small detail. The snobbery against anyone not Jewish was not from the disciples but from Jesus himself. Jesus was the one to warn his disciples not to take the gospel to the Gentiles or even enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 10:6) And he was the one to consider that Gentile woman a dog and not the disciples. On the contrary, the poor disciples were the ones pressing on Jesus to do something about the "barking" of that woman.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...you failed completely to shift your perspective.

Jesus took the same attitude of His disciples and displayed it...
as if He shared their view point.
Then...turned about completely and gave the woman her request.
The disciples....then could see the difference between themselves and what they should be.

When reading Scripture....shift who you are.

 

[Ben Masada]

Thief here...you failed completely to shift your perspective.

Jesus took the same attitude of His disciples and displayed it...
as if He shared their view point.
Then...turned about completely and gave the woman her request.
The disciples....then could see the difference between themselves and what they should be.

When reading Scripture....shift who you are.

If Jesus meant indeed to satisfy the request of that woman at the end, why did he need to humiliate her down to the crumbles of bread from the table of the children?

And why did it have to take so long? Every minute was a torture for that poor woman who could not give up the hope of at least crumbles as long as her daughter got cured.

No, my friend, or that never happened or Jesus couldn't play more cruel. I prefer that the case never happened because it's hard to believe that Jesus would refer to Gentiles as dogs.

 

[sojourner]

You are so bent on making Jesus completely into a modern Jew, and so bent on defaming Paul, that you actually contradict yourself.

The passage in question is Markan -- not Matthean. It's found in Mark 7:24-30. If we look at how Mark is set up, we find that a crisis is building. In chapter 6, Jesus' own people don't recognize him. Mark says, "He could do no work of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief." Clearly, belief -- faith -- is a necessary ingredient for kingdom power.

Immediately following that episode, Jesus sends his disciples out. (A nice allegory).

In Chapter 7, we find Jesus railing against the religious authorities with a passage from Isaiah: "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching human precepts as doctrines." Then he teaches about defilement.

Immediately after this lesson is the pericope in question. A woman (unclean) -- a Syrophoenician woman (unclean) approached Jesus (women were not allowed to approach men. Gentiles were not allowed to approach rabbis). That person was not an "unbeliever," and Jesus was able to exercise power, because of her faith.

The emphasis is not on Jesus treating the woman like a dog, but on the woman's faith in the face of adversity.

For Mark, this is part of the struggle between Jesus and the religious authorities (that ultimately got him killed).

Matthew picks up on this theme quite well, and incorporates it into his gospel of doing away with the distinctions between laos and ethne.

This may not be an authentic quotation, since it isn't found in Q. We really need a multiple attestation in both Q and Thomas, in order for a quotation to to be undisputed.

What the passage shows is neither a callous Jesus, nor a heretical sect, but a community struggling to establish its new verse of an old song.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Masada...
I see your still hung on denouncing the Carpenter's approach in the text you quoted in post#1....

Try once more to see it through the eyes of the Carpenter.
Your disciples follow you... because...they do believe... you will be the Messiah.
You seem to have all of the needful qualities.

But as you move through the country...teaching such things as
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
your disciples seem to stand off from people who are not Jewish.
They do so repeatedly.
They persist, keeping to their 'own kind'.

So...now it becomes needful to find opportunity...to display their attitude as if you share it.

Then comes the mother of a child in distress.

He displays their conviction as if He shares it.
They again continue as they always have.

THEN...He does as He is truly wants to....and it plays well the manner of response the woman makes.
Her quick wit...and her willingness to be humble for the sake of her child...
ARE excellent displays of good faith.

Jesus was simply taking advantage of an opportunity as it came His way.

 

[Ben Masada]

You are so bent on making Jesus completely into a modern Jew, and so bent on defaming Paul, that you actually contradict yourself.

The passage in question is Markan -- not Matthean. It's found in Mark 7:24-30. If we look at how Mark is set up, we find that a crisis is building. In chapter 6, Jesus' own people don't recognize him. Mark says, "He could do no work of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief." Clearly, belief -- faith -- is a necessary ingredient for kingdom power.

Immediately following that episode, Jesus sends his disciples out. (A nice allegory).

In Chapter 7, we find Jesus railing against the religious authorities with a passage from Isaiah: "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching human precepts as doctrines." Then he teaches about defilement.

Immediately after this lesson is the pericope in question. A woman (unclean) -- a Syrophoenician woman (unclean) approached Jesus (women were not allowed to approach men. Gentiles were not allowed to approach rabbis). That person was not an "unbeliever," and Jesus was able to exercise power, because of her faith.

The emphasis is not on Jesus treating the woman like a dog, but on the woman's faith in the face of adversity.

For Mark, this is part of the struggle between Jesus and the religious authorities (that ultimately got him killed).

Matthew picks up on this theme quite well, and incorporates it into his gospel of doing away with the distinctions between laos and ethne.

This may not be an authentic quotation, since it isn't found in Q. We really need a multiple attestation in both Q and Thomas, in order for a quotation to to be undisputed.

What the passage shows is neither a callous Jesus, nor a heretical sect, but a community struggling to establish its new verse of an old song.

And you are such an expert on Matthew that you have your eyes patched for what is written in Matthew about the Canaanite woman. (Mat 15:21-28.)

 

[Ben Masada]

Thief here...Hey Masada...
I see your still hung on denouncing the Carpenter's approach in the text you quoted in post#1....

Try once more to see it through the eyes of the Carpenter.
Your disciples follow you... because...they do believe... you will be the Messiah.
You seem to have all of the needful qualities.

But as you move through the country...teaching such things as
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
your disciples seem to stand off from people who are not Jewish.
They do so repeatedly.
They persist, keeping to their 'own kind'.

So...now it becomes needful to find opportunity...to display their attitude as if you share it.

Then comes the mother of a child in distress.

He displays their conviction as if He shares it.
They again continue as they always have.

THEN...He does as He is truly wants to....and it plays well the manner of response the woman makes.
Her quick wit...and her willingness to be humble for the sake of her child...
ARE excellent displays of good faith.

Jesus was simply taking advantage of an opportunity as it came His way.

Sorry Thief, but what you want is to rewrite the NT. It's impossible. We have to deal with what we have.

What makes you think that Jesus had what it takes to be the Messiah?

If there was any attitude in the disciples to stand off from any non-Jewish person, Jesus was the one who forbade them to approach Gentiles. It's written and we cannot change it. (Mat. 10:6)

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Masada
I didn't change it.
I understand it.

 

[free spirit]

if jesus meant indeed to satisfy the request of that woman at the end, why did he need to humiliate her down to the crumbles of bread from the table of the children?

and why did it have to take so long? Every minute was a torture for that poor woman who could not give up the hope of at least crumbles as long as her daughter got cured.

no, my friend, or that never happened or jesus couldn't play more cruel. I prefer that the case never happened because it's hard to believe that jesus would refer to gentiles as dogs.

actually jesus is only giving us an esample of what religious people do. Don't they even today call others heathen, gentiles, infedels; dogs is only a word to wrap them all togeter, read revelation 22 - 15.

we should look on that episode and take note that also the so called dogs have faith and that God honors all faiths if that faith is holy, (for the women's faith was working by the love for her doughter.) jesus therefore used that episode to teach us that God looks at the heart. But if you think that he did something wrong you do not know jesus.

 

[free spirit]

What makes you think that Jesus had what it takes to be the Messiah?
I know because he is continually giving the witness to my spirit, he is alive you know, we do not have to depent on history or some archaeology discovery, if he was dead ok, but he his not.


If there was any attitude in the disciples to stand off from any non-Jewish person, Jesus was the one who forbade them to approach Gentiles. It's written and we cannot change it. (Mat. 10:6)

It is only partly true, because he forbade them only not to preach to the gentiles, for in the beginning the message was for the Jews only, after they rejected it, it became for the gentiles also.
Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan women and the disciples asked him why? for the Jews had no dealing with Samaritans. And Peter before he went to Cornilius house had to be told that all human had been clean. So your argument is leaking like a sift.

 

[free spirit]

TO BEN MASADA

Hi Thief, sorry to remind you, you have left out a small detail. The snobbery against anyone not Jewish was not from the disciples but from Jesus himself. Jesus was the one to warn his disciples not to take the gospel to the Gentiles or even enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 10:6) And he was the one to consider that Gentile woman a dog and not the disciples. On the contrary, the poor disciples were the ones pressing on Jesus to do something about the "barking" of that woman.

You are so far from the mark that it is incredible.

 

[free spirit]

not necessarily, Ben.
Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. He knew from Isaiah, the Prophet that the Messiah is Israel, the People. If Jesus had claimed that he was the Messiah, his disciples would have proclaimed so in Jerusalem where they were headquartered for almost 30 years and coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, when Paul showed up with the message and nearly got killed for preaching apostasy. How about the disciples of Jesus? I tell you that they were as surprised about Paul's gospel as were all the local Jews.

You have a wild imagination, are all Jews like you.

 

[Ben Masada]

Thief here...Masada
I didn't change it.
I understand it.

Are you sure you understand it or you stand under the strings of misunderstanding?

 

[Ben Masada]

actually jesus is only giving us an esample of what religious people do. Don't they even today call others heathen, gentiles, infedels; dogs is only a word to wrap them all togeter, read revelation 22 - 15.

we should look on that episode and take note that also the so called dogs have faith and that God honors all faiths if that faith is holy, (for the women's faith was working by the love for her doughter.) jesus therefore used that episode to teach us that God looks at the heart. But if you think that he did something wrong you do not know jesus.

Are you trying to tell me that for anyone else to refer to another human being as a dog is wrong but that it was not for Jesus?

 

[Ben Masada]

It is only partly true, because he forbade them only not to preach to the gentiles, for in the beginning the message was for the Jews only, after they rejected it, it became for the gentiles also.
Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan women and the disciples asked him why? for the Jews had no dealing with Samaritans. And Peter before he went to Cornilius house had to be told that all human had been clean. So your argument is leaking like a sift.

I am sorry but you are blindly trying to rewrite the NT just to justify whatever seems to have been a bad thing Jesus did.

 

[Ben Masada]

TO BEN MASADA

You are so far from the mark that it is incredible.

And you are so bias about Jesus that anyone can see how afraid you are to acknowledge his weaknesses.