South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Left Coast]

First off, I want to thank you for having a civil discussion. This is a very charged topic, I know it's not easy. So thank you.

Okay, I must be missing something here, but your first sentence above seems to be in conflict with your 2nd sentence?

==

More or less, what I'm advocating for is studies in which one group gets drugs and talk therapy and the other group gets only talk therapy. If I'm understanding you, you would agree to that approach?

No. What I'm telling you is that comparisons to psychotherapy are unecessary to assess whether GAC medical interventions work on their own merits. Secondly, what I'm telling you is that for practical purposes, most people who obtain medical interventions as a part of their GAC also obtain psychotherapy. The whole reason they are referred for medical treatment is because their clinician(s) recognize the likely benefits of said treatment over and above psychotherapy alone.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

The whole reason they are referred for medical treatment is because their clinician(s) recognize the likely benefits of said treatment over and above psychotherapy alone.

Challenge accepted. I will soon enough provide an alternative to GAC and the truth will emerge over time.

 

[icehorse]

Just for clarification, what you are talking about is studying those who opt for a talk therapy only approach and comparing that group to those who opt for talk therapy plus other treatments.

The point I am making is the the choice must be up to the family, it can't be imposed on them.

As is consistent with all such studies, correct?

 

[fantome profane]

As is consistent with all such studies, correct?

Is that a question or is that your answer?

 

[Left Coast]

Challenge accepted. I will soon enough provide an alternative to GAC and the truth will emerge over time.

I can't wait to read your published research on treatment for gender dysphoria!

What are your academic credentials?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I can't wait to read your published research on treatment for gender dysphoria!

What are your academic credentials?

You will know them by their fruit. Credentials are not the determiner when it comes to understanding the mind.

I’m actually serious about this. I intend to compete against GAC after diving into this issue. I was already planning to focus on addiction recovery, but I’ll do this subject too. Suicidal ideation will go to zero percent for whoever follows my coaching. And it will be free of charge.

 

[Left Coast]

You will know them by their fruit. Credentials are not the determiner when it comes to understanding the mind.

They kind of are, though. If you have no formal, graduate level education in psychology, medicine, neuroscience, or related fields, you're not going to sufficiently understand the research that's already been done on these questions, develop the clinical skills necessary to assess and treat real patients, and then competently develop, formally test, scientifically analyze your hypotheses and publish your findings.

I’m actually serious about this. I intend to compete against GAC after diving into this issue. I was already planning to focus on addiction recovery, but I’ll do this subject too. Suicidal ideation will go to zero percent for whoever follows my coaching. And it will be free of charge.

If you're actually serious about this, you'll obtain the education and experience necessary to clinically assess and treat patients with evidence-based interventions.

 

[Bthoth]

You will know them by their fruit. Credentials are not the determiner when it comes to understanding the mind.

I’m actually serious about this. I intend to compete against GAC after diving into this issue. I was already planning to focus on addiction recovery, but I’ll do this subject too. Suicidal ideation will go to zero percent for whoever follows my coaching. And it will be free of charge.

Wow, a person that wants to help others.

 

[icehorse]

What I'm telling you is that comparisons to psychotherapy are unecessary to assess whether GAC medical interventions work on their own merits.

Hmmm. So how would you be able to conclude anything if you have no basis for comparison?

I'm happy to grant you that some kids that go through GAC report improved mental health. The billion dollar question is why? You think it's because of GAC, I think that a significant percentage of those kids would have achieved similar or better results using only talk therapy.

You have no evidence proving "why" some of your GAC kids ended up feeling better. We're both speculating to some degree.

BTW, there is a FAR more interesting and challenging question to discuss once we get past this log jam...

 

[icehorse]

If you're actually serious about this, you'll obtain the education and experience necessary to clinically assess and treat patients with evidence-based interventions.

Okay, so we're both fans of evidence based interventions!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not demonstrably any more effective than pogo stick therapy.

You didn't even know this treatment has been around for over a century and you think we should take you seriously?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No. What I'm telling you is that comparisons to psychotherapy are unecessary to assess whether GAC medical interventions work on their own merits. Secondly, what I'm telling you is that for practical purposes, most people who obtain medical interventions as a part of their GAC also obtain psychotherapy. The whole reason they are referred for medical treatment is because their clinician(s) recognize the likely benefits of said treatment over and above psychotherapy alone.

Reading some posts here you'd think you can go to a doctor and say "hey, doc, gimme a sex change" and get scheduled for one as soon as the surgeon has an opening.

 

[icehorse]

You didn't even know this treatment has been around for over a century and you think we should take you seriously?

Do you agree that the Dutch protocol was invented around 2011?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you agree that the Dutch protocol was invented around 2011?

I don't agree that was the beginning of gender affirming care. The terms may have changed but therapy amd hormones and surgeries were already going on.
But you aren't alone. I even had to correct a lib ally here who thought it was all new and started around tyr time of the DSM V's publishing.
But, yes, it first happened over a century ago and has been going on lonh enough that there's a Gallagher standup mentioning Renee Richards. She was a tennis player who medically transitioned in the 70s.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because you have provided substantive insight on the mind and gender in this thread?

I don't believe so. I'm just responding to what's put in front of me.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So you think this is how we should approach gender with children because you think gender has no deeper reality beyond social construction?

Yes, because that's literally what the term "gender" refers to. A social construction.

Do you deem transitioning as unnecessary since biology should have no impact on gender?

That depends. "Transitioning" has many forms, not all medical. If you are referring exclusively to MEDICAL transition, then no. SOCIAL transitioning is a different matter. However, in an ideal world, there would be no need to "transition" because the difference between being x and being y would be nonexistent - you would be free to embrace whatever labels you choose, free of any social, physical or societal expectation or coercion. However, this is kind of like stating that, in an ideal world, we wouldn't need lifesavers because nobody would ever drown.

Transitioning in all its forms exist because these associations exist and play a huge role in how we view each other and ourselves in society. So while I would prefer it if people were happy and content in themselves to the extent that they can associate any label with themselves freely by choice, and feel no social pressure to conform or express certain behaviours that society imposes on them, I understand that we do live in a society where those expectations and pressures exist, and the best we can allow is for people to have the freedom to live and express themselves to the best of their ability within that social context.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

We already have a word for that: woman

No, that word refers to all women. Not just cis women.

We don't need a new word for that.

Why not? What's wrong with having new words?

Although, incidentally, it's not a "new word". Both "cis" and "trans" are terms used in chemistry.

To speed things along here, if you're going to claim that a trans woman is a different type of woman then we can stop right here. A trans woman is NOT a woman. A trans woman is a trans woman. So "cis" is nonsense. There are women and trans women and that's it.

Oh, I see. Kind of like how we have "black people", and people who aren't "black" don't need any further distinction; we can just call them "people". There's "black people" and there's "people", right?

Or, do you think that doing that may, y'know, imply something?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In this case WPATH is advocating for the transitioning of youth.

You mean, the society made up of medical experts?

You're right, what right do they have to determine best medical practice? Best leave that to the politicians.

And again, show me a meta study that include control groups, that conclude that GAC improves well being more than talk therapy alone.

I've already explained why this request betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of methodology. You can't produce "control groups" for medical policy. Control groups are for small scale experiments, like drug trials. You don't use "control groups" to study the effects of policies and practices at a societal level.

As for the beneficial effects of GAC, here are some studies and investigations:

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed

This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria Study (1972-2015): Trends in Prevalence, Treatment, and Regrets - PubMed

The number of people with gender identity issues seeking professional help increased dramatically in recent decades. The percentage of people who regretted gonadectomy remained small and did not show a tendency to increase. Wiepjes CM, Nota NM, de Blok CJM, et al. The Amsterdam Cohort of Gender...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Gender-affirming care is preventative care - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Study Finds Long-Term Mental Health Benefits of Gender-Affirming Surgery for Transgender Individuals

The American Journal of Psychiatry has published an erratum notice after conducting a statistical analysis that was prompted by letters questioning the methodology of “Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total...

www.psychiatry.org

Psychiatry Online

PsychiatryOnline.org is the platform for all American Psychiatric Association Publishing journals, DSM, and bestselling textbooks, as well as APA Practice Guidelines, and continuing medical education.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423

Oh, and here is a study that DOES have control groups:

https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/137/3/e20153223/81409/Mental-Health-of-Transgender-Children-Who-Are?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

[metis]

Sure, as long as doctors are limited to interventions with proven efficacy, which GAC does not have.

So, you are going to be one who accredits which doctors are supposedly qualified and which aren't? Nope, you're just grasping at straws.

 

[icehorse]

I don't agree that was the beginning of gender affirming care. The terms may have changed but therapy amd hormones and surgeries were already going on.
But you aren't alone. I even had to correct a lib ally here who thought it was all new and started around tyr time of the DSM V's publishing.
But, yes, it first happened over a century ago and has been going on lonh enough that there's a Gallagher standup mentioning Renee Richards. She was a tennis player who medically transitioned in the 70s.

Agreed. But in this thread we're talking about GAC for kids, and that hasn't been standard for very long.