South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Shadow Wolf]

But - for the sake of discussion - let's say that GAC is better than talk therapy alone. This raises a number of thorny ethical issues.

We need to pause here. There is no "better treatment" like a one size fits all approach.
There is what's best for the individual. Not all individuals will have the same needs, thus the better treatment is what the individual patient needs.
Like with depression or anxiety. Sometimes talk therapy is best. Sometimes it's severe enough to make medicine the better treatment.
Also a medical transition mandates and requires talk therapy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You have no evidence proving "why" some of your GAC kids ended up feeling better. We're both speculating to some degree.

You do know you can just ask us, right? There's several of us at least who can explain. You don't actually have to speculate.
I'll give you a hint: It revolves around the reason why it is so very common that people who see our pre-transition pictures comment we looked dead in the eyes, and our pictures from after that have the missing spark of life that was missing from older pictures.

 

[libre]

You do know you can just ask us, right? There's several of us at least who can explain. You don't actually have to speculate.
I'll give you a hint: It revolves around the reason why it is so very common that people who see our pre-transition pictures comment we looked dead in the eyes, and our pictures from after that have the missing spark of life that was missing from older pictures.

I agree.
I don't really understand why the experiences of trans people are inadmissible in this discussion, but the experiences of detransitioners are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree.
I don't really understand why the experiences of trans people are inadmissible in this discussion, but the experiences of detransitioners are.

It looks to me that the experiences kf detransitioners are also mostly dismissed to make room for hyperfocusing on the fact they exist. Like how a lack of access to adequate and appropriate care is apparently a no go. This stands even though my previous sentence, without context, broadly applies to healthcare as a whole just about everywhere in America.

 

[icehorse]

I agree.
I don't really understand why the experiences of trans people are inadmissible in this discussion, but the experiences of detransitioners are.

In general I think we should be skeptical of anecdotal evidence when it comes to public policy.

The reason I posted that video was to counter the endless claims that regret is rare. Anyone who says that will live to regret those words.

 

[icehorse]

You already conceded the basic point that leads us logically to support that conclusion. The experimental group receives a treatment for a condition, and their condition improves more than a control group that didn't receive the treatment. That is evidence the treatment worked. It isn't speculating, it's a direct logical inference from the results of the experiment.

Yes that is how it's supposed to work. But in the case of GAC it hasn't yet happened

 

[icehorse]

This is why I've told him repeatedly to actually talk to real trans people in his offline life. But when I suggest this it's dismissed as some kind of Marxism or something.

In science individual stories are referred to as anecdotal evidence and as such are evidence of very low quality.

 

[Left Coast]

Yes that is how it's supposed to work. But in the case of GAC it hasn't yet happened

Yes, it has sir. I literally posted one study for you and you said you saw it.

 

[Left Coast]

In science individual stories are referred to as anecdotal evidence and as such are evidence of very low quality.

We've been over this. Remember the swans? You conceded you understood the logic of this already. Why rehash the same concept you already conceded? Please don't make me go find your quotes.

 

[libre]

The reason I posted that video was to counter the endless claims that regret is rare.

Your video does nothing to counter the stats shared in this thread which indicate regret IS rare.

 

[Laniakea]

You do know you can just ask us, right? There's several of us at least who can explain. You don't actually have to speculate.
I'll give you a hint: It revolves around the reason why it is so very common that people who see our pre-transition pictures comment we looked dead in the eyes, and our pictures from after that have the missing spark of life that was missing from older pictures.

Just as the photographer instructs people to do, just like with the weight-loss before and after pics. Frown in the first pic, then smile in the "after" pic. Makes for good marketing.

 

[libre]

Just as the photographer instructs people to do, just like with the weight-loss before and after pics. Frown in the first pic, then smile in the "after" pic. Makes for good marketing.

Why do you think trans patients would intentionally lie to you specifically about their experiences, if it was truly against their own interests?

 

[Laniakea]

Why do you think trans patients would intentionally lie to you specifically about their experiences, if it was truly against their own interests?

Probably because they have too much pride to admit when they've made a mistake. The flag they wave and the parades they think they need to march in says it all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Probably because they have too much pride to admit when they've made a mistake. The flag they wave and the parades they think they need to march in says it all.

I don't do flags or parades. And no mistakes were made.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, it has sir. I literally posted one study for you and you said you saw it.

And also to respond to your reiteration of the swam example:

I think you've made several mistakes in logic. Yes, I read your various posts, I just think you've made mistakes in logic.

There is NO REASON that studies comparing GAC drugs / surgeries to talk therapy alone - for KIDS - cannot be done. If anything, these studies would be MORE ethical than all of the studies you cite, that start by assuming that the goal is to support GAC.

We can try to walk through the logic, but I doubt it would accomplish anything. But I am willing to try, just let me know.

 

[Left Coast]

And also to respond to your reiteration of the swam example:

I think you've made several mistakes in logic. Yes, I read your various posts, I just think you've made mistakes in logic.

Yet you can't point any out.

There is NO REASON that studies comparing GAC drugs / surgeries to talk therapy alone - for KIDS - cannot be done.

No one claimed they "cannot" be done. You haven't responded to my point, which is that they don't need to be done in order to know GAC works.

If anything, these studies would be MORE ethical than all of the studies you cite, that start by assuming that the goal is to support GAC.

The studies don't start with that assumption. And such studies wouldn't be more ethical, they would just be a different study.

We can try to walk through the logic, but I doubt it would accomplish anything. But I am willing to try, just let me know.

Thus far it's been me explaining the logic of things to you. So at this point I would get your own ducks in a row before trying to teach me.

 

[icehorse]

Yet you can't point any out.

I have, several times.

You haven't responded to my point, which is that they don't need to be done in order to know GAC works.

I have, several times.

Thus far it's been me explaining the logic of things to you. So at this point I would get your own ducks in a row before trying to teach me.

That's a misrepresentation of the discussion so far.

Again, if you want to walk thru the logic with me step by step, no red herrings, no strawmans, no ad hominems, no nonsense, I'm happy to do that.

 

[Left Coast]

I have, several times.


I have, several times.

But you haven't though sir. Anyone can read back through this interaction and see that.

You are free to reply to any of the things I've actually said and tell me why you disagree.

 

[icehorse]

But you haven't though sir. Anyone can read back through this interaction and see that.

You are free to reply to any of the things I've actually said and tell me why you disagree.

Well we disagree. My offer stands.

 

[icehorse]

We need to pause here. There is no "better treatment" like a one size fits all approach.
There is what's best for the individual. Not all individuals will have the same needs, thus the better treatment is what the individual patient needs.
Like with depression or anxiety. Sometimes talk therapy is best. Sometimes it's severe enough to make medicine the better treatment.
Also a medical transition mandates and requires talk therapy.

But for the sake of kids with GD, we CAN and SHOULD compare the efficacy of the full GAC approach to talk therapy only. This is a completely measurable and important set of facts we should have, and do not.