Spanking Kids in Kansas

[MysticSang'ha]

What a bizarre non sequitur.

It's a question of the likelihood of children blurring the lines between what they should accept and what they shouldn't. Feel free to give it a shot.

And what if his curiousity was not satisfied? What if he kept finding ways to bypass the coverings on the outlets? What if he kept trying, over and over, no matter what you did or said?

He didn't. It diverted him instantly.

And then what if at one point, He grabs something metal and heads toward an outlet?

I covered all the rest of the outlets. He got the message.

I think there are situations that call for a smack, Situations that no other form of discipline can swiftly and effectively get the message across and help prevent your child from getting hurt.

Good for you. I found other ways. I have four surviving children that can attest to my parenting.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

For some kids, Heather, even this wouldn't deter them from the behavior. What worked for your son would have opened the door to additional risk to my daughters.

My daughters were also curious about my cigarette lighters. Should I have provided them an empty cigarette lighter to curtail their curiosity?

My post was not meant as advice. I followed DS's post of asking what other parents would have done who have experience in the matter. I found something that worked for us.

But does that really establish in their mind that "power outlet = bad"?

It did for us. He saw the one option I gave him as acceptable, and established the boundary of the outlet covers as unacceptable. He didn't try to get to the outlets after that.

By giving him a power strip to play with, you've established such an item as a harmless plaything.

Au contraire....an unused power strip IS a harmless plaything. We had other power strips in the house that he understood wasn't his and didn't touch.

The point of punishment (spanking, time-out, etc.) is to use negative association as a deterrent.

I have found spanking to be ineffective at best. So, not in our family.

 

[Thana]

He didn't. It diverted him instantly.
I covered all the rest of the outlets. He got the message.

I have to commend the way you completely avoid acknowledging or answering my question.
Bravo :clap

Good for you. I found other ways. I have four surviving children that can attest to my parenting.

So?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I have to commend the way you completely avoid acknowledging or answering my question.
Bravo :clap

What can I say? I would have found another way. I'm a creative parent.

So?

Awww, how sweet. *pats Thana on the head*

Experience counts, dear. You can give your thoughts about your future hypothetical children, while I can give my thoughts on what actually worked with four children who are all very different from each other.

 

[Thana]

What can I say? I would have found another way. I'm a creative parent.

Awww, how sweet. *pats Thana on the head*

Experience counts, dear. You can give your thoughts about your future hypothetical children, while I can give my thoughts on what actually worked with four children who are all very different from each other.

I wonder how effective your condescension was.

Alas, You do have me at somewhat of a disadvantage. I do not have children.

Whether your methods actually worked though, is debatable. Just because your children are alive does not mean you did a good job.
But I don't want to get personal.

Again, you didn't answer my question.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I wonder how effective your condescension was.

As effective as your applause was. Two can play at this game, young lady.

Alas, You do have me at somewhat of a disadvantage. I do not have children.

Whether your methods actually worked though, is debatable. Just because your children are alive does not mean you did a good job.
But I don't want to get personal.

You just did.

I have offered my resume as a mother, child caregiver, and as a teacher numerous times. I have no problem offering my experience and qualifications again, including my successes.

Again, you didn't answer my question.

I did. I said I would have found another way. I'm a creative parent, and thinking outside of the box has been shown to find solutions to things once deemed impossible.

 

[Thana]

As effective as your applause was. Two can play at this game, young lady.

Forgive my sarcasm, It was unnecessary.

You just did.
I have offered my resume as a mother, child caregiver, and as a teacher numerous times. I have no problem offering my experience and qualifications again, including my successes.

I haven't seen them, I don't even think I've ever debated with you before.
Nor do I really think that experience and qualifications would measure your success as a parent/caregiver.

I did. I said I would have found another way. I'm a creative parent, and thinking outside of the box has been shown to find solutions to things once deemed impossible.

'I would have found an answer' is not really an answer.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I wonder how effective your condescension was.

Alas, You do have me at somewhat of a disadvantage. I do not have children.

Whether your methods actually worked though, is debatable. Just because your children are alive does not mean you did a good job.
But I don't want to get personal.

Again, you didn't answer my question.

Let's turn this around a bit: Do you recall how were you disciplined as a child? If you do, what lesson(s) did you learn from it?

If you were disciplined through corporal punishment, then I would argue that it's projection on your part to assume that corporal punishment must also work for your (hypothetical) children without even having any experience with them yet.

If you weren't, then I would ask whether you really think you haven't turned out well and therefore believe you should have been physically reprimanded.

 

[Thana]

Let's turn this around a bit: Do you recall how were you disciplined as a child? If you do, what lesson(s) did you learn from it?

If you were disciplined through corporal punishment, then I would argue that it's projection on your part to assume that corporal punishment must also work for your (hypothetical) children without even having any experience with them yet.

If you weren't, then I would ask whether you really think you haven't turned out well and therefore believe you should have been physically reprimanded.

Yes I was. I recall maybe less than a handful of times.

The most significant I would say is when I went to the shop alone to buy candy. When I got home, I was smacked with the belt.

Now you wouldn't really think the punishment fits the crime, However, To get to the shop (I was perhaps 5-6) I had to cross a major highway. How I survived, I have no idea. But the belting, the pain and the explanation was enough for me to never attempt or want to attempt to do such a thing again. I didn't really understand at the time what was so bad about it, But I understood that it must have been something really bad and serious for my parents to hurt me like that.

I think as an adult, I can look back on that situation objectively.

I don't have children, But I've had plenty of experience with them.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's a question of the likelihood of children blurring the lines between what they should accept and what they shouldn't. Feel free to give it a shot.

But considering that spanking and sexual abuse aren't even remotely comparable (hence the non sequitur), there is no line to blur.

It did for us. He saw the one option I gave him as acceptable, and established the boundary of the outlet covers as unacceptable. He didn't try to get to the outlets after that.

So if your child was beating on a living animal, you would've simply gave him a stuffed animal to beat on instead, rectifying the behavior? That wouldn't actually establish with the child that violence towards animals is bad and unacceptable though, would it?

Au contraire....an unused power strip IS a harmless plaything. We had other power strips in the house that he understood wasn't his and didn't touch.

Ah, so you had established with the child that they could differentiate between what's harmless and what's harmful when it comes to electrical plugs, wires, and outlets?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Forgive my sarcasm, It was unnecessary.

I appreciate that. Please accept my apologies as well.

I haven't seen them, I don't even think I've ever debated with you before.
Nor do I really think that experience and qualifications would measure your success as a parent/caregiver.

Experience offers evidence of results and patterns that can be observed from connecting intent and action with the result, and if that result was desired. No parent is perfect, btw. And all parents make mistakes with their children - such is life.

That being said, people like to either idealize or demonize their parents before they see the humanity in parents. It shows how powerful an influence parents have in our lives emotionally and how we see ourselves in the world. So, if we love our parents deeply, and we were hit with a belt, we would tend to not only forgive the belt but likely idealize the belt as effective.

Not always, but more likely.

Now, since you and I haven't debated much, I ought to let you know I also have experience as a domme. I've engaged in physical punishments with consenting adults based on domination and submission where I accept the role as the dominant party. Everyone has different boundaries of what is acceptable to them and what isn't, but the constant in all people are that boundaries exist with everyone. These boundaries, I have found, when respected offer the best avenue to a successful relationship and the best opportunity to productive and compassionate outcomes.

'I would have found an answer' is not really an answer.

Sure it is. If I am committed to refraining from something I find unacceptable, and something doesn't work, I look elsewhere. It's closer to the "Don't Shoot the Dog" analogy, where it seems like the only option to silencing a hypothetical disobedient or dangerous animal is by killing it. What I find problematic in many of these pro-spanking arguments is the addition that the practice is necessary. And quite simply, it isn't.

 

[Thana]

Experience offers evidence of results and patterns that can be observed from connecting intent and action with the result, and if that result was desired. No parent is perfect, btw. And all parents make mistakes with their children - such is life.

That being said, people like to either idealize or demonize their parents before they see the humanity in parents. It shows how powerful an influence parents have in our lives emotionally and how we see ourselves in the world. So, if we love our parents deeply, and we were hit with a belt, we would tend to not only forgive the belt but likely idealize the belt as effective.

Not always, but more likely.

Now, since you and I haven't debated much, I ought to let you know I also have experience as a domme. I've engaged in physical punishments with consenting adults based on domination and submission where I accept the role as the dominant party. Everyone has different boundaries of what is acceptable to them and what isn't, but the constant in all people are that boundaries exist with everyone. These boundaries, I have found, when respected offer the best avenue to a successful relationship and the best opportunity to productive and compassionate outcomes.

Fair enough, Though I should add that my parents were foster carers.

I learned from a young age how imperfect parents can be, And how experience doesn't always mean you're doing a good job.

I understand your position, But I cannot help but feel that in very serious situations, A smack can be the best way to prevent/repremand children for putting themselves in danger. And I've learnt that firsthand.

I feel that taking the chance that other methods will be as effective, Is not something I'm personally prepared to risk concerning my kids safety.

Sure it is. If I am committed to refraining from something I find unacceptable, and something doesn't work, I look elsewhere. It's closer to the "Don't Shoot the Dog" analogy, where it seems like the only option to silencing a hypothetical disobedient or dangerous animal is by killing it. What I find problematic in many of these pro-spanking arguments is the addition that the practice is necessary. And quite simply, it isn't.

I'm trying to discover if you could ever be put in a situation where you feel a smack on the bottom would/could be effective to protect your children.

If you don't give me alternatives, I assume this by default. Considering people are generally capable of anything.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Fair enough, Though I should add that my parents were foster carers.

I learned from a young age how imperfect parents can be, And how experience doesn't always mean you're doing a good job.

I understand your position, But I cannot help but feel that in very serious situations, A smack can be the best way to prevent/repremand children for putting themselves in danger. And I've learnt that firsthand.

I feel that taking the chance that other methods will be as effective, Is not something I'm personally prepared to risk concerning my kids safety.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to...

I'm trying to discover if you could ever be put in a situation where you feel a smack on the bottom would/could be effective to protect your children.

If you don't give me alternatives, I assume this by default. Considering people are generally capable of anything.

The only time I'd ever hit my kids is if they were physically attacking me or another family member for self-defense.

But to send a message or as a form of discipline? No. I don't find it effective. I find it as ineffective as locking a kid in a closet for an hour. And I don't see myself locking a child in a small dark space for an hour under any circumstance, regardless of whether it's assumed by default or not.

 

[Alceste]

Is it the parent's intention to cause pain when spanking their kids? No, it's not. That's the entire point I'm trying to make.

You haven't been following that closely, then. Thana is planning to beat her future kids with a wooden spoon because she feels she can't cause enough pain with her bare hands, and she believes children only learn from pain.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes I was. I recall maybe less than a handful of times.

The most significant I would say is when I went to the shop alone to buy candy. When I got home, I was smacked with the belt.

Now you wouldn't really think the punishment fits the crime, However, To get to the shop (I was perhaps 5-6) I had to cross a major highway. How I survived, I have no idea. But the belting, the pain and the explanation was enough for me to never attempt or want to attempt to do such a thing again. I didn't really understand at the time what was so bad about it, But I understood that it must have been something really bad and serious for my parents to hurt me like that.

I think as an adult, I can look back on that situation objectively.

I don't have children, But I've had plenty of experience with them.

Okay, how do you think there are so many children who learned not to cross a highway alone without the use of physical punishment? I was one of those, too. Did those children's parents do something wrong? If so, how did they turn out well and become healthy adults?

 

[beenie]

So if your child was beating on a living animal, you would've simply gave him a stuffed animal to beat on instead, rectifying the behavior? That wouldn't actually establish with the child that violence towards animals is bad and unacceptable though, would it?

So to teach that lesson, we smack the kid? What are we teaching him again? :sarcastic

I must have six really strange children, because whenever they got into something they shouldn't (including dangerous things), distraction with a firm "danger" or "hot" worked wonderfully. I didn't go crazy childproofing my home; we did what was necessary to make our house safe.

My girls are now well-adjusted, well-mannered, and respectful. These are words I get from their teachers, martial arts instructors, friends' parents, etc. Not one smack, spank, slap, hit...

Can't argue with success.

 

[Alceste]

I look at your example as problematic for one reason: you are an adult who can define your own boundaries and enforce it. If you draw the line on physical contact at swatting a hand, you have a right to say it and to end a relationship based on such. And if your wife continues to disregard your personal boundaries, you ethically can separate based on that and that alone.

A child has no right in a family that does not respect a child's personal physical boundaries.

Like many, the debate of spanking often comes up in our culture because it's normalized, and there are parents who don't spank their children, and there are opinions about that decision to not spank. I often times wonder how kids are able to process the discussion about "good touch, bad touch" when it comes to define their boundaries and combating sexual abuse, but then should shut their mouths and take a swat even if they think it's a "bad touch."

Of course, adults are able to differentiate the two. But how are kids able to process accepting a swat on the butt that makes them cry and feel they don't have ownership of their bodies, but then speak up and verbalize they were touched on their butt by an adult (whether it's the same adult or a different one), that makes them feel they don't have ownership of their bodies?

Is it likely that a child who is spanked does not believe he or she can speak up about sexual abuse when it happens?

Lack of healthy physical boundaries has a very high correlation with corporal punishment. I don't think it's a matter of feeling you can't speak up about sexual abuse, it's more like not even recognizing sexual abuse when it occurs, and being equally insensitive to the boundaries of others.

My husband's example was a girl he once knew who was frequently knocked around at home (and of course claimed it "didn't do her any harm"). If she liked a guy she'd basically just grab him by the **** out of the blue in the pub, quite uncomfortably for him, and say "Alright, love, you and me out by the bins, what do you say?"

She also used to beat up other girls. Basically, she had no sense of appropriate or inappropriate physical contact with others, so I wouldn't think she'd have an easy time recognizing if this trait was being exploited by a sexual predator.

 

[Thana]

Thana is planning to beat her future kids

I never, Not once, Said that. You're being extremely dishonest.

with a wooden spoon

Maybe. It depends on the situation.

because she feels she can't cause enough pain with her bare hands

A wooden spoon is more effective than a bare hand, Yes.
I'm not trying to cause my kids pain, I'm trying to protect them from hurting themselves by associating their dangerous behaviour with a bad experience.

and she believes children only learn from pain.

Now you're just making stuff up.
I said that I believe some of the most important lessons we learn from are those born of pain (not just physical pain).
And I specifically said that smacking kids is not the only effective way to discipline.

I really don't appreciate what you're trying to do. It's just, dishonest and ugly.

 

[Thana]

Okay, how do you think there are so many children who learned not to cross a highway alone without the use of physical punishment? I was one of those, too. Did those children's parents do something wrong? If so, how did they turn out well and become healthy adults?

Honestly, I don't know.
I've never said that smacking your kids is the only way to discipline.

In that situation, I associated going out alone with a bad experience, Which made me never do it again.

Sure there are other ways, But are they as effective?

I don't really think a scolding, or a time out, or losing some toys, Would have put the same association in my head because my father would always take me to that shop and buy me a treat. So I associated going there with treats.
Because of this, I don't think any other method would have worked as well.

 

[Alceste]

Forgive my sarcasm, It was unnecessary.



I haven't seen them, I don't even think I've ever debated with you before.
Nor do I really think that experience and qualifications would measure your success as a parent/caregiver.



'I would have found an answer' is not really an answer.

Yes it is. She gave you your answer. Hitting is unacceptable in her home, so no matter how many "what ifs" you throw at her to try to box her into saying that a smack is ok under a certain set of hypothetical circumstances, it will never happen. Because she doesn't hit her kids. I'm not sure you're really getting that concept.

But you said yourself that you wouldn't hit your sister's kids. You'd try a variety of things to get them to behave, and see what worked. So you also have a line that you are unwilling to cross that keeps you from swatting kids - other people's kids. It's just that you are not planning to use the same strategy for your own future kids, no matter how effective it turns out to be. For your kids, it's the spoon. For everybody else's kids, you'll do it pretty much the same way Heather does.