Still think it's an exaggeration?

[Guy Threepwood]

I think that it has already begun.
I believe that the main reason for the invasion of Iraq was control over the gulf oil region, including Iran.
A bunch of the people invading Europe are displaced largely by war and environmental degradation.

The single biggest thing the human family must do to ward off disastrous wars is start shrinking the population. But too many people and cultures are heavily invested in population growth.
Tom

Well i believe we should have taken control of it, but we obviously didn't- in US hands, outside of OPEC, we could vastly increase global output, efficiency, security - again this would overwhelmingly help the poorest people on the planet the most, providing the much needed affordable energy that allowed wealthy nations to get that way in the first place

We agree that population growth is a problem. But can't we also agree, that by far the best way to curb this is by increased prosperity? It's beyond dispute that this rapidly reduces population growth, even shrinks it.
Otherwise you are looking at disease, famine, child birth restrictions etc, no good options

We need energy for this, the life blood of the economy, subsidizing electric toy cars for millionaires is not helping those in need

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Good observation.

When "they" are faced with data such as this, I observe that they like to attempt to change the narrative and discussion from "global warming" to "climate change".

Yes, and it's that difference between 'weather and climate' I've come to understand better now

record antarctic sea ice extent, record cold winters across entire regions, record global snow coverage, are anecdotal weather anomalies to be ignored

But a weekend heatwave in DC in july, a single tornado outbreak in Oklahoma in spring, a photo of a baby polar bear swimming, all undeniable evidence of global climate catastrophe!

 

[Thief]

Good observation.

When "they" are faced with data such as this, I observe that they like to attempt to change the narrative and discussion from "global warming" to "climate change".

would you like to demonstrate that line drawn?

 

[Thief]

i hear the polar bear is in real trouble....

 

[Thief]

when i was a boy.....we would tunnel in the snow banks.....

not anymore.....

but i am somewhat older....and the snow never deepens

 

[buddhist]

would you like to demonstrate that line drawn?

Take a look in this very thread, here and here, for example ... with all due respect to Luis, of course.

 

[columbus]

Yes, and it's that difference between 'weather and climate' I've come to understand better now

Here is why both terms are accurate and important, but different.

By pumping gazillions of tons of GHG, and cutting down the vegetation that absorbs it, the atmosphere warms. That doesn't mean that everything stays the same, just a smidge warmer. It means that the weather has more energy. It changes, sometimes in unpredictable ways. If the North America and Greenland ice sheets dump a bunch of cold fresh water into the north Atlantic it could stop the current of ocean water that takes heat from the Caribbean and dissipates it across northern Europe. More heat in the Caribbean water means hurricanes, less in Europe means ice age. A more active atmosphere means that rain fall becomes more intense and sporadic. Ask any farmer whether 20 2" rains are the equivalent of one 15" and one 25". It's the same amount of rain, but not the same effects on growing crops.
That's the difference between warming and change.
Tom

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Here is why both terms are accurate and important, but different.

By pumping gazillions of tons of GHG, and cutting down the vegetation that absorbs it, the atmosphere warms. That doesn't mean that everything stays the same, just a smidge warmer. It means that the weather has more energy. It changes, sometimes in unpredictable ways. If the North America and Greenland ice sheets dump a bunch of cold fresh water into the north Atlantic it could stop the current of ocean water that takes heat from the Caribbean and dissipates it across northern Europe. More heat in the Caribbean water means hurricanes, less in Europe means ice age. A more active atmosphere means that rain fall becomes more intense and sporadic. Ask any farmer whether 20 2" rains are the equivalent of one 15" and one 25". It's the same amount of rain, but not the same effects on growing crops.
That's the difference between warming and change.
Tom

As above, weather systems are energized by the contrast between warm and cold air masses, that's why we see the most energized storms in spring, when warm are collides with cold air, the differential in temp and pressure is the driver as the air masses constantly try to even out while the earth is unevenly heated by the sun.

This is not controversial to science, perhaps it is to Al Gore and Leonardo de Caprio, But look no further than Venus: >97% CO2, massive runaway greenhouse effect, hundreds of degrees C, and barely a breath of wind at the surface- because the GH effect is a form of insulation- it reduces temp contrasts between night and day, equator and poles. So yes the atmosphere is more 'energized' in that there is more heat energy, but less energized in that it is in equilibrium

The same effect would occur on Earth, were we ever to pump in enough CO2 to make any noticeable difference. what we have added is a little over ONE molecule CO2 in 10,000 of air, if anyone thinks this can trap enough heat to cause any significant effect, far less a deleterious one... that's a depressing level of scientific illiteracy.

What it does effect is aiding plant growth and drought resistance- quite significantly and empirically. No computer sims needed to demonstrate this.

 

[columbus]

As above, weather systems are energized by the contrast between warm and cold air masses, that's why we see the most energized storms in spring, when warm are collides with cold air, the differential in temp and pressure is the driver as the air masses constantly try to even out while the earth is unevenly heated by the sun.

This is not relevant to my post. True, but irrelevant.
Tiny amounts of heat energy will have huge effects on the knife edge balance and patterns of weather that the human race is accustomed to. If the average temps in the British isles suddenly dropped 4 degrees and the hurricane season in Caribbean American suddenly expanded by two months and an average of 2 categories, it would be a huge big deal for some of the most privileged people on this planet. They will not respond well. It'll be war.
Tom

 

[Thief]

used to go the pavilion in the local park to ice skate
a shallow concrete 'pond' would be filled with water
about 4inches deep....and allowed to freeze

but not anymore

There's always been climate instability. Ups and downs are normal. If the climate stayed the same all the time, then I'd be concerned.

My point is that I haven't seen global warming for myself. I don't personally perceive that so-called academical consensus either.

so....you really haven't seen....
An Inconvenient Truth

Al Gore narrates

 

[Guy Threepwood]

This is not relevant to my post. True, but irrelevant.
Tiny amounts of heat energy will have huge effects on the knife edge balance and patterns of weather that the human race is accustomed to. If the average temps in the British isles suddenly dropped 4 degrees and the hurricane season in Caribbean American suddenly expanded by two months and an average of 2 categories, it would be a huge big deal for some of the most privileged people on this planet. They will not respond well. It'll be war.
Tom

We at least agree that warmer temps are better than colder!

The Ordovician ice age had 1000% the CO2 levels of today, it simply is not a driver of climate. The only observed causal correlation we can identify over the last million years , is that changes in CO2 levels lag changes in temp by 800-900 years. This alone is a pretty good indicator that the opposite does not happen to any significant degree, besides the math not being there either, otherwise we have a runaway feedback loop with no SUVs

what happened 800-900 years ago? Medieval warm period.

If the Earth were sitting on a runaway warming knife edge, there are plenty natural forces, vastly greater than our own puny efforts, that could trigger it also. But at the end of the day, warming is better than cooling-
we are living in a brief warm period within a great ice age, anything we can do to stall the next imminent glacial period is greatly beneficial, but I fear there is little we can do to artificially warm the planet

On the other hand, if for some reason we didn't like warmer weather, longer growing seasons, lower energy requirements, - cooling the planet with particulates is a lot more feasible than warming it in an emergency

 

[Guy Threepwood]

used to go the pavilion in the local park to ice skate
a shallow concrete 'pond' would be filled with water
about 4inches deep....and allowed to freeze

but not anymore


so....you really haven't seen....
An Inconvenient Truth

Al Gore narrates

Al Gore believes in global warming! Now i'm convinced, I'm sorry I ever doubted it. One thing we know about politicians, they are the most honest, impartial, scientifically literate people on Earth!

 

[Thief]

some types of seed need the freeze.

 

[Thief]

Al Gore believes in global warming! Now i'm convinced, I'm sorry I ever doubted it. One thing we know about politicians, they are the most honest, impartial, scientifically literate people on Earth!

you assume to much to your advantage
and you don't have one

Al is simply stepping up to the obvious

seen the video yet?

 

[columbus]

We at least agree that warmer temps are better than colder!

No we don't.
Warmer temps could result in catastrophic freezing in places accustomed to being able to grow good crops. It could result in places accustomed to rain being spread out over months getting a months worth in a day.
No, I don't agree with you because you don't understand what climate change means for the human situation.
Tom

 

[buddhist]

so....you really haven't seen....
An Inconvenient Truth

Al Gore narrates

Does Al Gore walk his talk, and live a lifestyle that is more minimal than the average person in the world?

 

[buddhist]

No we don't.
Warmer temps could result in catastrophic freezing in places accustomed to being able to grow good crops. It could result in places accustomed to rain being spread out over months getting a months worth in a day.
No, I don't agree with you because you don't understand what climate change means for the human situation.
Tom

It was supposed to be "global" warming - global excludes "freezing in places".

 

[columbus]

Does Al Gore walk his talk, and live a lifestyle that is more minimal than the average person in the world?

How does that matter?
Tom

 

[Thief]

Does Al Gore walk his talk, and live a lifestyle that is more minimal than the average person in the world?

i did not present him as poster child

just narrator

 

[buddhist]

How does that matter?
Tom

It matters to me. I judge someone much more by what a person does, and far less by what they preach