Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[linwood]

Are you denying they were rapists, or asserting that homosexuality is worse than rape?

He`s asserting that within the context of the Old Testament homosexuality was indeed worse than rape.

Rape wasn`t a problem for Yahweh as he often commanded it be done in his name.

Man fornicating with other men was against a direct edict issued by Yahweh in Leviticus and I believe Duet.

In the story of Lot rape and incest were acceptable.

The sin of Sodom was homosexuality.

 

[Enoch07]

In the story of Lot rape and incest were acceptable.

Ok where in the story of Lot is rape and incest ok?

How about that?

 

[linwood]

I am having trouble finding where Lot raped his daughters. Care to clarify?

Read for content.

 

[Enoch07]

Ok where in the story of Lot is rape and incest ok?

How about that?

Kk fixed it.

 

[Hospitaller]

Anyway I would be interested to know what both christians and non-christians think about this dilema (well to me it is a dilema), does this mean that I am sinning as I'm not opposing my family members? As you will gather, although I have been thinking about it long and hard, I still havent drawn my conclusion yet as I dont feel it is my place to judge someone because of their sexuality as I am not judged on mine (well not that I know of).

"The rejection of homosexual behavior that is found in the Old Testament is well known. In Genesis 19, two angels in disguise visit the city of Sodom and are offered hospitality and shelter by Lot. During the night, the men of Sodom demand that Lot hand over his guests for homosexual intercourse. Lot refuses, and the angels blind the men of Sodom. Lot and his household escape, and the town is destroyed by fire "because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord" (Gen. 19:13)."

"Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner."

are they acting upon these desires?

 

[Rakhel]

Lot was just as guilty as the rest of Sodom. He was only saved because of Abraham.

And it wasn't his entire house hold, his daughters were not married, but betrothed, his wife died, and he didn't even do as he was told. He didn't seduce his daughters, he didn't even know what had happened until he woke and even at that, his daughters feared that they were the last on earth. What they did was obey one of the first commandments ever given. "Be fruit and multiply." There was no sin of incest. There was no sin of homosexuality. There was a sin of not procreating. But what do I know. I'm not a Christian.

BTW not procreating and homosexuality are NOT the same sin!!!

 

[Enoch07]

Lot was just as guilty as the rest of Sodom. He was only saved because of Abraham.

And it wasn't his entire house hold, his daughters were not married, but betrothed, his wife died, and he didn't even do as he was told. He didn't seduce his daughters, he didn't even know what had happened until he woke and even at that, his daughters feared that they were the last on earth. What they did was obey one of the first commandments ever given. "Be fruit and multiply." There was no sin of incest. There was no sin of homosexuality. There was a sin of not procreating. But what do I know. I'm not a Christian.

BTW not procreating and homosexuality are NOT the same sin!!!

Kk just making sure I did not miss anything. That is basically what I got out of the story as well.

 

[Enlighten]

are they acting upon these desires?

But then does this not mean we all do then, as I have chosen to be with my man then does that mean I have given in to my desires?

 

[tomasortega]

Hey, I know we all dont agree 100% with everything in our religions but I have been thinking really long and hard about something that was discussed in church on Sunday, here is the news story: BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Kirk votes to back gay minister

According to the bible it is a sin for to be gay (I struggle with this as I dont believe people "choose" to be gay, I think it is the way they are and they would live a lie if they pretended not to be): Romans, Chapter 1 (King James Bible) - ChristianAnswers® WebBible™

Another reason I am struggling with this as I have a few cousins of mine who are openly gay (and I must say I am close to them so dont want to offend them in anyway by posing this question to them) and they attend church but according to my church they are living a lie, then again maybe I should just come right out and ask what their thoughts are.....

Anyway I would be interested to know what both christians and non-christians think about this dilema (well to me it is a dilema), does this mean that I am sinning as I'm not opposing my family members? As you will gather, although I have been thinking about it long and hard, I still havent drawn my conclusion yet as I dont feel it is my place to judge someone because of their sexuality as I am not judged on mine (well not that I know of).

well first off, from reading the pauline letters we can notice that paul was an a-sexual sexist. or at least acted that way. he was also very pleased with himself and not very accepting of other people's methods or approaches to christianity. more often than not he condemned or accused other servants of god and usually ended by saying "i wish they were more like me". basically he thought very highly of himself and liked to stir the crap pot. and people got offended because of his harsh words. so really the best way to describe him was as an egocentrical *******. thats why i personally dont think the pauline letters should be accepted as part of the bible, but hey, they are, and because of that we have to assume that they are also inspired in some way by god, especially since even paul himself says on occasion that he is speaking on behalf of god. and thats where many of christianities problems and controversies come from

now, on to the homosexual thing. the way i see it, if god, the creator of the universe, really cares about the sexual orientation of his creation, then why does he create, or let some people/animals be born with hormonal imbalances? why are some people born with both genitalia, or neither male nor female, so that the parents have to choose the child's sex for it, and feed it all kinds of hormones etc.? why is much of the animal kingdom bisexual?

as far as im concerned, once again god blames us for something we have no control over. something that is his responsibility in the first place.

of course well have some twisted fundamentalist christians saying that its not god's fault, that its man's fault. its because man chose to be wicked and crap like that... well im sorry, but if a human being is born with a hormonal imbalance, that certain human has no control over it, and is not at fault, just like someone born with only one leg shouldnt be condemned for not being able to run a marathon. what choice does a homosexual have if he is born that way? so what if its parents were wicked, thats not the child's problem. the bible says something along the lines of "fathers shouldnt be punished for their children, and children shouldnt be punished for their fathers, everyone should die for their own sin". to say otherwise goes againts the bible. ive just about had it with those idiot fundamentalists

 

[free spirit]

well first off, from reading the pauline letters we can notice that paul was an a-sexual sexist. or at least acted that way. he was also very pleased with himself and not very accepting of other people's methods or approaches to christianity. more often than not he condemned or accused other servants of god and usually ended by saying "i wish they were more like me". basically he thought very highly of himself and liked to stir the crap pot. and people got offended because of his harsh words. so really the best way to describe him was as an egocentrical *******. thats why i personally dont think the pauline letters should be accepted as part of the bible, but hey, they are, and because of that we have to assume that they are also inspired in some way by god, especially since even paul himself says on occasion that he is speaking on behalf of god. and thats where many of christianities problems and controversies come from

now, on to the homosexual thing. the way i see it, if god, the creator of the universe, really cares about the sexual orientation of his creation, then why does he create, or let some people/animals be born with hormonal imbalances? why are some people born with both genitalia, or neither male nor female, so that the parents have to choose the child's sex for it, and feed it all kinds of hormones etc.? why is much of the animal kingdom bisexual?

as far as im concerned, once again god blames us for something we have no control over. something that is his responsibility in the first place.

of course well have some twisted fundamentalist christians saying that its not god's fault, that its man's fault. its because man chose to be wicked and crap like that... well im sorry, but if a human being is born with a hormonal imbalance, that certain human has no control over it, and is not at fault, just like someone born with only one leg shouldnt be condemned for not being able to run a marathon. what choice does a homosexual have if he is born that way? so what if its parents were wicked, thats not the child's problem. the bible says something along the lines of "fathers shouldnt be punished for their children, and children shouldnt be punished for their fathers, everyone should die for their own sin". to say otherwise goes againts the bible. ive just about had it with those idiot fundamentalists

I am one of those idiot fundamentalist, and your argument does not make sense. you say that the man born without a leg shouldn't be condemned for not being able to run a marathon, I agree with you on that point, but I would be right to consider that his gestation was abnormal: I would also consider siamese twins having had an ubnormal gestation, those are the obvious defects that we can see, and we try to help them the best way we can. But also there are people born with mental illnesses that become apparet as that person grows up, like Klepomania, pyromania, violent agressors, rapist, serial killers the list gos on and on, they all are fruits of the environment or they were borne with the disorder, some of them we put in jail, some we execute, some go to mental hospital for extended periods; and that is OK with me 100/00 what i am no confortable with is that the disorder of homosexuality is promoted as normal, to be even accepted as an olternative lifestile, to be also honored with the sacrament of marriege, has the world gone crazy. I do not blame the homosexuals for wanting that, not at all, but then let us accept pyromania as normal, and why not klepomania for they also have no control over their desires, ho no you may say, for they do harm to society, and you are right, have you considered or measured the moral harm that homosexuality does to society. I think that scientific mental reserch could help those that are abnormal, we should not abandon them to that squalid and fruitless life, even if they want us to. I hunderstand it is easier and cheaper for us to wash hour hands of them, if we do that, it will be at our peril. Or should we consider homosexuality a normal evolution of humanity but to what end.

 

[McBell]

I am one of those idiot fundamentalist, and your argument does not make sense. you say that the man born without a leg shouldn't be condemned for not being able to run a marathon, I agree with you on that point, but I would be right to consider that his gestation was abnormal: I would also consider siamese twins having had an ubnormal gestation, those are the obvious defects that we can see, and we try to help them the best way we can. But also there are people born with mental illnesses that become apparet as that person grows up, like Klepomania, pyromania, violent agressors, rapist, serial killers the list gos on and on, they all are fruits of the environment or they were borne with the disorder, some of them we put in jail, some we execute, some go to mental hospital for extended periods; and that is OK with me 100/00 what i am no confortable with is that the disorder of homosexuality is promoted as normal, to be even accepted as an olternative lifestile, to be also honored with the sacrament of marriege, has the world gone crazy. I do not blame the homosexuals for wanting that, not at all, but then let us accept pyromania as normal, and why not klepomania for they also have no control over their desires, ho no you may say, for they do harm to society, and you are right, have you considered or measured the moral harm that homosexuality does to society. I think that scientific mental reserch could help those that are abnormal, we should not abandon them to that squalid and fruitless life, even if they want us to. I hunderstand it is easier and cheaper for us to wash hour hands of them, if we do that, it will be at our peril. Or should we consider homosexuality a normal evolution of humanity but to what end.

Careful now, your blatant ignorance is showing.

 

[Storm]

He doesn't care.

 

[McBell]

He doesn't care.

Unfortunately I suspect that not only are you correct, but that he is awful proud of it to boot.

If he is not the most blissful person on the planet, he must be damn close to it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I still havent drawn my conclusion yet as I dont feel it is my place to judge someone because of their sexuality as I am not judged on mine (well not that I know of).

Why can't that be your conclusion?

 

[idea]

does this mean that I am sinning as I'm not opposing my family members? As you will gather, although I have been thinking about it long and hard, I still havent drawn my conclusion yet as I dont feel it is my place to judge someone because of their sexuality as I am not judged on mine (well not that I know of).

We are supposed to love one another, not oppose one another. Of coarse loving someone includes not enabling them to follow a path that is self-destructive. There is debate among us mortals as to how self-destructive homosexuality is, as there are debates about idolatry – how does worshipping an idol hurt anyone? Or debates around humility – I mean doesn’t humility hurt our self-esteem? And there are debates around every single one of the things that God has suggested will lead to a better life. Satan is very cunning is confusing and hiding the real issues of things. Rationalizing away why all that God asks us is degrading and derogatory. The “sour grapes” principle, in Aesop’s fable, the wolf cannot get the grapes, so he tells himself and everyone else “they are sour”. The grapes are not sour, the wolf is the one who is sour.

There is a reason behind every commandment, and every commandment is there for our own good, our own well-being.

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." - Lincoln, Abraham

Calling the grapes sour does not make them sour. There is better stuff out there to pursue than SSM - would you rob anyone of what is best by distracting them with imitations?

 

[idea]

I am one of those idiot fundamentalist, and your argument does not make sense. you say that the man born without a leg shouldn't be condemned for not being able to run a marathon, I agree with you on that point, but I would be right to consider that his gestation was abnormal: I would also consider siamese twins having had an ubnormal gestation, those are the obvious defects that we can see, and we try to help them the best way we can. But also there are people born with mental illnesses that become apparet as that person grows up, like Klepomania, pyromania, violent agressors, rapist, serial killers the list gos on and on, they all are fruits of the environment or they were borne with the disorder, some of them we put in jail, some we execute, some go to mental hospital for extended periods; and that is OK with me 100/00 what i am no confortable with is that the disorder of homosexuality is promoted as normal, to be even accepted as an olternative lifestile, to be also honored with the sacrament of marriege, has the world gone crazy. I do not blame the homosexuals for wanting that, not at all, but then let us accept pyromania as normal, and why not klepomania for they also have no control over their desires, ho no you may say, for they do harm to society, and you are right, have you considered or measured the moral harm that homosexuality does to society. I think that scientific mental reserch could help those that are abnormal, we should not abandon them to that squalid and fruitless life, even if they want us to. I hunderstand it is easier and cheaper for us to wash hour hands of them, if we do that, it will be at our peril. Or should we consider homosexuality a normal evolution of humanity but to what end.

Great post free spirit - frubals Your understanding of what is happening is not uneducated. (except - "idiot fundamentalist" is an oxymoron - do not use that phrase, and don't let the children who resort to name calling dissuade you from fighting the good fight.)

 

[maleka]

If you're a Christian and believe that everything the Bible says is truth, then you can't deny that homosexuality is a sin. Along with other sexual sins like premarital sex and adultery. But Jesus teaches us to love the sinner but hate the sin. He also teaches us to judge not lest ye be judged. I think you should still love people who are gay, but never say homosexuality is ok in the eyes of God.

Remember that I'm taking this viewpoint assuming the Bible is true and tells us exactly what God expects from us. I'm not trying to offend anyone that has different views than I do.

 

[Quagmire]

I am one of those idiot fundamentalist, and your argument does not make sense. you say that the man born without a leg shouldn't be condemned for not being able to run a marathon, I agree with you on that point, but I would be right to consider that his gestation was abnormal: I would also consider siamese twins having had an ubnormal gestation, those are the obvious defects that we can see, and we try to help them the best way we can. But also there are people born with mental illnesses that become apparet as that person grows up, like Klepomania, pyromania, violent agressors, rapist, serial killers the list gos on and on, they all are fruits of the environment or they were borne with the disorder, some of them we put in jail, some we execute, some go to mental hospital for extended periods; and that is OK with me 100/00 what i am no confortable with is that the disorder of homosexuality is promoted as normal,

It's been well established, for something like 30 or 40 years now, that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

Homophobia, on the other hand, is.

Look at your own case; in another thread you as much as admitted that your attitude towards homosexuality is the result of an incident that happened to you in your teens that left you with serious doubts about your own sexual identity (and I'll bring up that post if you like).

In other words, your stance on homosexuality is a personal, emotionally motivated bias which you're trying to present as a religious or moral conviction.

to be even accepted as an olternative lifestile, to be also honored with the sacrament of marriege, has the world gone crazy. I do not blame the homosexuals for wanting that, not at all, but then let us accept pyromania as normal, and why not klepomania for they also have no control over their desires, ho no you may say, for they do harm to society, and you are right, have you considered or measured the moral harm that homosexuality does to society.

It's typical for someone with unaddressed personal issues to redefine them as societal issues (that way, you don't have to change, society does).

I think that scientific mental reserch could help those that are abnormal,

The scientific community declassified homosexuality as a mental condition a cpl of generations ago. Homophobia, on the other hand...

Put it this way: the idea that homosexuality is a normal human condition is backed by tons of research by people who have dedicated their lives to understanding how the human mind works.

All you have on your side are a bunch of other uninformed homophobes standing behind you saying "Amen".

we should not abandon them to that squalid and fruitless life, even if they want us to.

LOL! The favorite mantra of the militant control freak; "Lets help these people whether they want us to or not". Do me a favor Free Spirit, please don't ever decide I need your help with anything.

I hunderstand it is easier and cheaper for us to wash hour hands of them, if we do that, it will be at our peril.

Yes: you are in grave peril of being forced to mind your own business.

 

[Riverwolf]

I understand it is easier and cheaper for us to wash hour hands of them, if we do that, it will be at our peril.

I'd rather go to hell in the name of equality than go to heaven for serving the will of a tyrant.

Or should we consider homosexuality a normal evolution of humanity but to what end.

Ever consider that homosexuality may be one of nature's way of controlling the population?

 

[free spirit]

If you're a Christian and believe that everything the Bible says is truth, then you can't deny that homosexuality is a sin. Along with other sexual sins like premarital sex and adultery. But Jesus teaches us to love the sinner but hate the sin. He also teaches us to judge not lest ye be judged. I think you should still love people who are gay, but never say homosexuality is ok in the eyes of God.

Remember that I'm taking this viewpoint assuming the Bible is true and tells us exactly what God expects from us. I'm not trying to offend anyone that has different views than I do.

You are a righteous person, so why do you try to excuse yourself for that righteouseness. you are the salt of the earth, you are the light of the world, do not excuse yourself to the darkness. you have something to be proud of, you have to use it with respect that is all.