Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[Riverwolf]

That's your call, and I shouldn't have spoken for everybody. However, hate and lies = rotten fruits in my book.

In mine, the kind being presented here coupled with the events described from childhood indicates fruit that hasn't fully grown yet.

 

[Enlighten]

Why can't that be your conclusion?

true, but i was meaning more so with what i should do about it, i.e. speak to the ones who felt i needed a talking to.

 

[Enlighten]

If you're a Christian and believe that everything the Bible says is truth, then you can't deny that homosexuality is a sin. Along with other sexual sins like premarital sex and adultery. But Jesus teaches us to love the sinner but hate the sin. He also teaches us to judge not lest ye be judged. I think you should still love people who are gay, but never say homosexuality is ok in the eyes of God.

Remember that I'm taking this viewpoint assuming the Bible is true and tells us exactly what God expects from us. I'm not trying to offend anyone that has different views than I do.

Yes i do believe in what the bible tells us, I've been reading through the bible quite a bit and not found this answer yet, but as you will probably know we ask for forgiveness for our sins and we are forgiven.... God loves us all no matter who we are, so therefore would this not then mean that come the rapture then we are all going to be judged then and given a second chance? I know I've not explained myself very well in this post, been a looooong day. But I hope you can kinda get my point. Basically I want them to be ok when it comes to their judgement.

 

[maleka]

1.please show me where the bible specifically condemns premarital sex.

2. show me where or if, the bible condemns polygamy which is predominantly viewed as a sin or at least immoral by today's society. in fact, your LDS church practiced it till what, the 70's? the fundamentalist part of your church still does to this day. and i dont really blame you, because god's ancient people did too. king david and solomon had what, 2-300 wifes?

3.how about slavery. is slavery immoral? cause the bible sure dont condemn it. jesus even uses it in one of his teachings. today's society views slavery as immoral, most of today's christians even as sin. how is that? didnt god's people own slaves? and since you are LDS didnt the mormon church teach or approve of the inferiority of the black man? doesnt the book of mormon say that god especially likes fair skinned people. LOL.

1. I guess the Bible largely emphisizes on Adultery. Paul does say fornicators (which to my understanding are people who have sex before marriage) will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10. He also advises everyone to have one husband/wife to avoid fornication. 1 Cor 7:2

2. The LDS Church did away with polygamy in 1890. The Lord has allowed polygamy from time to time as with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc. Paul advises Bishops to only have one wife in 1 Timothy 3:2. The Lord commanded the people in the Book of Mormon to only have one wife. Jacob 2:27. (LDS believe the Book of Mormon to be scripture, just like the Bible) I seem to remember reading elsewhere in the New Testament where Paul condemned it, but I can't remember where that passage is.

3. I don't think I ever remember reading anything about the Lords stance on slavery. I know that LDS doctrine (I'm not sure about the rest of Christianity) teaches that one of the biggest purposes of life is to excersize free agency to do righteous acts. Since slavery takes away free agency I would have to assume the Lord would condemn it. I don't think the Israelites had slaves. I could be wrong on that though.
The LDS church has never supported slavery. It withheld the priesthood from Blacks for reasons outside the scope of this topic. But there has always been the promise that it would be granted to Blacks on a future day, which happened in 1978.

I hope this answered your questions.

 

[maleka]

Yes i do believe in what the bible tells us, I've been reading through the bible quite a bit and not found this answer yet, but as you will probably know we ask for forgiveness for our sins and we are forgiven

I would say we need to do both, ask for forgiveness, and forsake the sin. Remember when the Pharisees brought the adulturer to Jesus and "he who is without sin cast the first stone" story. Jesus told her he didn't condemn her. Then told her: "go and sin no more"

Now I realize that its impossible for us humans to forsake all the sins listed in Holy Scripture, but the Lord still expects us to constantly try to avoid sin.

God loves us all no matter who we are, so therefore would this not then mean that come the rapture then we are all going to be judged then and given a second chance?

Luckly for us, we are not the ones Judging. The Lord will judge everyone according to their actions they've done here on earth: Rev 20:12-13. I don't want to say what will happen to who at the rapture. I'll let God decide that. Sorry I couldn't have been more helpful about this subject, it is a hard one to deal with. I can promise you thought that God has an unconditional love for all of his children.

 

[Enlighten]

I can promise you thought that God has an unconditional love for all of his children.

Well this is my thoughts so therefore no matter what "path" we take in life then God still loves us and we will still have a place in heaven for us?!

 

[Quagmire]

Yes I see it now: But quagmire our life experiences makes us what we are,

That's what I'm getting at; this particular life experience---being molested as a teenager and being aroused by it--- is mostly responsible for your homophobia. Since then you've translated whatever shame and anger you feel about the incident into something else; an objection to homosexuality on religious or moral principles.

Your trying to present an emotional aversion based on a personal, traumatic experience as an objection based on a religious or moral belief. It's a dodge.

in my teens I also steal something from another boy would that make me question my honesty?

Lets hope so, but how would I know? I've never heard you talk about how you feel about that incident, just the one I cited.

Quagmire you got it all wrong all i am saying that there is a better way of living.

You may believe that intellectually, but this isn't an intellectual issue for you, it's an emotional one.

Yes when we were young we experience many things some good some bad is part of groing up, with a bit of luck some of us have survived, for I am not a theaf, nor a violent agressor nor a homosexual, but I could have been ony of those or all three of them, but i cannot say that any of them is any good,

You're not being completely honest here, Free Spirit; your main concern here is that your reaction to the incident on the bus may mean that you actually are homosexual. You've taken the shame and fear you feel behind all that and translated it into a religious belief as a way of not having to deal with it, ie., as a way of making it something that's wrong with the world rather than something that you privately percieve as a personal flaw.

if for you homosexuality is good, so be it, but do not ask for my approval,

I don't think anybodies asking for your approval. Myself, I'm just asking you to be honest.

even if legally is acceptable, legality does not make it right, war is legal to kill but it is not right, euthanasia might be legalised but it is not right, abortion is legal but it is not right, devorce is legal but it is not right, we can also make poedophilia legal by just taking away the age of consent but it is not right.

Homophobia is legal...

The difference between all the examples you gave as well as the one I gave and homosexuality is that each of those effects someone who may not have a say in participating in it or about suffering from the consequences thereof.

 

[free spirit]

How are some of those not "right"? Who defines what "right" is?

I'll tell you who... or rather, WHAT defines them. Time. Times are different than they were 3500 years ago, when some of the oldest poetry, stories, and traditions were first committed to writing, including the Torah.

In these times, homosexuality is not wrong, neither is divorce, nor abortion, nor some of the things you've listed; the only things that are to be considered wrong in these times are things which directly harm individuals.

Divorce do harm if not to udults to children. Abortion do psychologic harm the woman not to mention the unborn individual

 

[free spirit]

That's what I'm getting at; this particular life experience---being molested as a teenager and being aroused by it--- is mostly responsible for your homophobia. Since then you've translated whatever shame and anger you feel about the incident into something else; an objection to homosexuality on religious or moral principles.

Your trying to present an emotional aversion based on a personal, traumatic experience as an objection based on a religious or moral belief. It's a dodge.



Lets hope so, but how would I know? I've never heard you talk about how you feel about that incident, just the one I cited.



You may believe that intellectually, but your intellectual

You're not being completely honest here, Free Spirit; your main concern here is that your reaction to the incident on the bus may mean that you actually are homosexual. You've taken the shame and fear you feel behind all that and translated it into a religious belief as a way of not having to deal with it, ie., as a way of making it something that's wrong with the world rather than something that you privately percieve as a personal flaw.

You actually maybe straight, but we will never know for i have taken the straight path, let me think now so i get this right yes.. sorry you have taken the straight path, and i have taken the crooked path, well i do not want to cause offence.


I don't think anybodies asking for your approval. Myself, I'm just asking you to be honest. Now honestly i could kiss you it would be so much fun.

Homophobia is legal...

respectful homphobia is legal put it in reverse and you get strightphobia and that is what you are for you cannot accept to be considered special or different, homosexuals want to be the same, married as it were. I may have used strong words describing homosexuality in general but never intentionally to cause personal offence, unlike the offencive words that were thrown at me personally.

The difference between all the examples you gave as well as the one I gave and homosexuality is that each of those effects someone who may not have a say in participating in it or about suffering from the consequences thereof.

Ho! Quagmire I do not feel angry or offended by it I just happen to think that these acts are wrong. Full stop
2000 years ago the Emperor Augustus had a law passed by the senate forbidding to bath naked in public, because the moral character of the city was getting sick, it will happen again I am sure.

 

[Quagmire]

Ho! Quagmire I do not feel angry or offended by it I just happen to think that these acts are wrong. Full stop
2000 years ago the Emperor Augustus had a law passed by the senate forbidding to bath naked in public, because the moral character of the city was getting sick, it will happen again I am sure.

So you're telling me there's no anger in this post?

My childood did not last forever the first homosexual got to play with my family jewels in a crowded bus I just froze but my *edit* was aroused ufter that i knew better. think what you like all the others were after the same thing but i would not hang around to find out, do you blame me, yes i got a phobia, i would not trust any of you *edit*.
The world would not miss anything if there were no *edit*.
SO GIVE ME A SINGLE REASON WHY I SHOULD NOT THING THE WHY I DO.
WITHOUT REFERING TO RELIGION NOW.

 

[ayani]

Anyway I would be interested to know what both christians and non-christians think about this dilemma (well to me it is a dilemma), does this mean that I am sinning as I'm not opposing my family members?

here is my position on the matter.

no, it's not a choice. people really do identify as gay, have those feelings, and see it as a valid and integral part of who they are.

you are right to not reject or shun your gay family members. that is kind of you, and commendable.

you're not sinning in not rejecting people who are in need of emotional and personal support. i had a dear friend at work (she quit) who was gay, and whom i really liked and got along with. when she asked me why on earth anyone could oppose gay marriage, i let her know that many do, for religious reasons, and gave my own. i let her know where i stood as a Christian, but didn't change the way i treated her. i may not agree with how she's living, but she was ok with that, at least enough to have kept the friendship up, and ask me questions later.

you don't have to reject or shun a person, and that's not what the Lord asks us to do at all. but basing one's stance not only on the Bible as a text but on Biblical principals and realities is vital to Christian life.

 

[free spirit]

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So you're telling me there's no anger in this post?

Yes... that was unfoutunate but in the heat of the debate i got carried away and i have apologise for it you know. But i got no apology for what i have been called, but my disposition is generous.

 

[Quagmire]

Yes... that was unfoutunate but in the heat of the debate i got carried away

In the "heat of the debate"? It was the first post you'd made after being logged off for 4 hours. And there was only one post addressed to you in the meantime, and it was pretty tame.

Nope. You're just trying to cover your tracks here (oh what a tangled web we weave....)

and i have apologise for it you know.

That doesn't matter. We're not discussing your manners here we're talking about what's really behind your attitude towards homosexuality.

Apologizing may excuse the tone of your post, but it doesn't neutralize the significance of it's content.

But i got no apology for what i have been called, but my disposition is generous.

You're being extremely generous to yourself here, or self-indulgent rather.

 

[Riverwolf]

Divorce do harm if not to udults to children. Abortion do psychologic harm the woman not to mention the unborn individual

Divorce doesn't do any serious harm. My own parents were divorced when I was seven, and it didn't seriously adversely affect me. (It was painful at the time, but I got over it within months.)

Trust me, whatever psychological harm done to me as a result of my parents getting divorced is nothing compared to you getting molested. THAT has left a very clear impression on you that is shining through what you're saying.

I won't get into abortion because that's a topic for another thread, and there have been too many of them. Suffice to say that I am against making it illegal.

 

[free spirit]

In the "heat of the debate"? It was the first post you'd made after being logged off for 4 hours. And there was only one post addressed to you in the meantime, and it was pretty tame.

Nope. You're just trying to cover your tracks here (oh what a tangled web we weave....)



That doesn't matter. We're not discussing your manners here we're talking about what's really behind your attitude towards homosexuality.

Apologizing may excuse the tone of your post, but it doesn't neutralize the significance of it's content.



You're being extremely generous to yourself here, or self-indulgent rather.

well I am only human after all, can you forgive me?

 

[Quagmire]

well I am only human after all, can you forgive me?

Ok, again ; We're not discussing your manners here we're talking about what's really behind your attitude towards homosexuality. Apparently you're not up to discussing that.

 

[free spirit]

here is my position on the matter.

No, it's not a choice. People really do identify as gay, have those feelings, and see it as a valid and integral part of who they are.

You are right to not reject or shun your gay family members. That is kind of you, and commendable.

You're not sinning in not rejecting people who are in need of emotional and personal support. I had a dear friend at work (she quit) who was gay, and whom i really liked and got along with. When she asked me why on earth anyone could oppose gay marriage, i let her know that many do, for religious reasons, and gave my own. I let her know where i stood as a christian, but didn't change the way i treated her. I may not agree with how she's living, but she was ok with that, at least enough to have kept the friendship up, and ask me questions later.

You don't have to reject or shun a person, and that's not what the lord asks us to do at all. But basing one's stance not only on the bible as a text but on biblical principals and realities is vital to christian life.

that is the way i feel, i now wish i could have put it as eloquently as you have, firm but kind.

 

[free spirit]

Ok, again ; We're not discussing your manners here we're talking about what's really behind your attitude towards homosexuality. Apparently you're not up to discussing that.

There is nothing to discuss, I know that homosexuality goes egaist nuture as we know it, I know it is a sin to me and many others and apparently God agrees with that; so if man decide to decriminalise the practice, and honor it by calling it a marriage, to me is blasfemy.
Why? because marriage is between a man and a women, full stop.
I have no anemosity towards homosexuals at all, but they want me to bless and consider it normal, which it is not, no matter how well you beautify it. the sooner the guy community realise that, the sooner they would invent a new name for their union or relationship, for after all, you only want the next of kin rights, so you should get that without calling it a marriage, if you do, people like me will not rise any objection, end of story.

 

[ryynänen47]

here is my position on the matter.

no, it's not a choice. people really do identify as gay, have those feelings, and see it as a valid and integral part of who they are.

you are right to not reject or shun your gay family members. that is kind of you, and commendable.

you're not sinning in not rejecting people who are in need of emotional and personal support. i had a dear friend at work (she quit) who was gay, and whom i really liked and got along with. when she asked me why on earth anyone could oppose gay marriage, i let her know that many do, for religious reasons, and gave my own. i let her know where i stood as a Christian, but didn't change the way i treated her. i may not agree with how she's living, but she was ok with that, at least enough to have kept the friendship up, and ask me questions later.

you don't have to reject or shun a person, and that's not what the Lord asks us to do at all. but basing one's stance not only on the Bible as a text but on Biblical principals and realities is vital to Christian life.

Hello People I'm new

See, I have no problems with Ayani. I am bisexual and I can tell you I did not choose it. My choice in the matter comes when deciding to act on what I feel. My orientation is a part of me, but it is not my totality.

I think many people reject gay marriage rights not just because of religious reasons, but because many people just dont know what it is like to be gay. They dont know any gay people close to them and/or see only the negative stereotypes. I wish people would realise it is not a lifestyle; we all dont live in the same way. I dont see who I love and want to spend me life with as a threat to anyone's elses marriage or family. It's like I understand where the Christians are coming from, but can they understand me and why I believe people should be able to marry who they want to make a commitment to?

Live long and prosper, :yes:


Ryynänen47

 

[ryynänen47]

There is nothing to discuss, I know that homosexuality goes egaist nuture as we know it, I know it is a sin to me and many others and apparently God agrees with that; so if man decide to decriminalise the practice, and honor it by calling it a marriage, to me is blasfemy.
Why? because marriage is between a man and a women, full stop.
I have no anemosity towards homosexuals at all, but they want me to bless and consider it normal, which it is not, no matter how well you beautify it. the sooner the guy community realise that, the sooner they would invent a new name for their union or relationship, for after all, you only want the next of kin rights, so you should get that without calling it a marriage, if you do, people like me will not rise any objection, end of story.

Hello People

I do not want nor need your 'blessing' for my relationships; I do not think that is what the gay marriage debate is about. Marriage has NOT been always between a man and a woman. What I dont understand is how my relationship would affect yours. Legal gay marriage would not change how you feel about your spouse. It would not cheapen the vows you took or your commitment to your family. Why should we invent a new name? Why make it seperate?

I dont expect you to think I'm 'normal', whatever that means. I understand you dont know how I feel. I guess I'm somewhat naive, I just wish people could understand and empathise on both sides of the issue.