Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[icehorse]

I think the approach that is being taken right now by the current leadership of Israel will leave Hamas in existence. Or in the very unlikely case where they do manage to exterminate Hamas it will just be replaced by an identical organization with a different name.

The current approach is driving the civilian population (at least those who manage to survive) into the arms of Hamas.

Here, I will let Lloyd Austin - Secretary of Defense - explain what I am trying to say. This is from remarks he made way back in December.

'A Time for American Leadership': Remarks by Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III at t

Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III delivered the keynote address at the Reagan National Defense Forum in Simi Valley, Calif.

www.defense.gov

"You know, I learned a thing or two about urban warfare from my time fighting in Iraq and leading the campaign to defeat ISIS.

Like Hamas, ISIS was deeply embedded in urban areas. And the international coalition against ISIS worked hard to protect civilians and create humanitarian corridors, even during the toughest battles.

So the lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians.

You see, in this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.


So I have repeatedly made clear to Israel’s leaders that protecting Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and a strategic imperative.

And so I have personally pushed Israeli leaders to avoid civilian casualties, and to shun irresponsible rhetoric, and to prevent violence by settlers in the West Bank, and to dramatically expand access to humanitarian aid."





This is the approach we should be taking. This is the only way to truly eliminate Hamas.

All of this sounds great in terms of civilians. But I think you underestimate Hamas if you somehow think this approach will eliminate them.

 

[fantome profane]

All of this sounds great in terms of civilians. But I think you underestimate Hamas if you somehow think this approach will eliminate them.

Tell Lloyd.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For the sake of discussion, let's that's all true.

How many billions of times a day does that still leave us with?

That's a strange way to phrase the question. What matters, and what would actually have an effect on other people, is the number of people who have hateful beliefs, not how often they might express those beliefs in prayer.

Since the interpretation in question is a minority one, we're not talking about "billions of times a day." There are no statistics that I know of specifically recording how many Muslims subscribe to that particular interpretation of Qur'an 1:7, though. The whole question seems to me an overreach in order to paint Muslims as a general group in a negative light.

 

[icehorse]

By the way, there have been reports of police violence during the arrests and breaking up of some of the student protests. You have made many posts about "free speech" and criticized some universities for a perceived lack of it. What are your thoughts on how the police have responded to some of these student protests so far, such as in the cases cited in the article I linked?

I'm not sure how this relates, but of course I support citizen's rights to protest. If this article is accurate, then the police are wrong.

You might (or might not), recall that I've often said I support the rights of Neo-Nazis to peacefully march through Jewish communities. Neo-Nazis are despicable, but we must defend everyone's right to use what ever degree of free speech they can.

Do I agree with the Pro-Palestinian protestors? Mostly I do not. But I defend their right to peaceful protest.

 

[icehorse]

Tell Lloyd.

For the most part Western leaders tend to appease Islam.

 

[Pogo]

For the sake of discussion, let's that's all true.

How many billions of times a day does that still leave us with?

Who cares, but there will be more Muslims on earth than Christians by the end of the century if that is of interest.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not sure how this relates, but of course I support citizen's rights to protest. If this article is accurate, then the police are wrong.

You might (or might not), recall that I've often said I support the rights of Neo-Nazis to peacefully march through Jewish communities. Neo-Nazis are despicable, but we must defend everyone's right to use what ever degree of free speech they can.

Do I agree with the Pro-Palestinian protestors? Mostly I do not. But I defend their right to peaceful protest.

Okay. I don't believe that neo-Nazis should be allowed to publicly display their symbols or publicly express their beliefs, but that's a topic for another thread. We agree that the police are in the wrong if the article is accurate.

As for how it relates, I think the responses from some politicians, including some congresspeople, and some media outlets to the protests has been extremely inconsistent and demonizing given that they have defended "free speech" in other instances. I think it's important to emphasize the right to peaceful protest and not paint the protesters with a broad brush based on the actions of a minority who have promulgated threatening speech.

 

[Pogo]

All of this sounds great in terms of civilians. But I think you underestimate Hamas if you somehow think this approach will eliminate them.

Well the bombing campaign worked real well in Vietnam to save the villages if I remember.

 

[icehorse]

That's a strange way to phrase the question. What matters, and what would actually have an effect on other people, is the number of people who have hateful beliefs, not how often they might express those beliefs in prayer.

Since the interpretation in question is a minority one, we're not talking about "billions of times a day." There are no statistics that I know of specifically recording how many Muslims subscribe to that particular interpretation of Qur'an 1:7, though. The whole question seems to me an overreach in order to paint Muslims as a general group in a negative light.

Again, I think that we should treat people with respect. Muslims know what 1:7 means.

What I have called for repeatedly is reform in Islam. The bible has been revised and softened many times. The same needs to be done to the Quran.

I'm applying some basic cognitive science and propaganda 101 to this issue. The fact that this phrase or sentiment is spoken out loud billions of times every day is the essence of propaganda, and propaganda's powerful effectiveness is consistent with what we know in cognitive science.

I don't think ANYONE should be repeating hateful slogans day after day after day after day... And anyone who does ought to be called out.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well the bombing campaign worked real well in Vietnam to save the villages if I remember.

Yep, and after 20 years in Afghanistan, it left the Taliban even more emboldened than they were when the US invaded.

Treating primarily socioeconomic and political problems as military problems has frequently been bound to result in failure, misery, and unnecessary loss of life.

 

[icehorse]

Yep, and after 20 years in Afghanistan, it left the Taliban even more emboldened than they were when the US invaded.

Treating primarily socioeconomic and political problems as military problems has frequently been bound to result in failure, misery, and unnecessary loss of life.

Agreed. But I don't think Hamas is a product of socioeconomic problems. I think Hamas is a product of Islamism.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Again, I think that we should treat people with respect. Muslims know what 1:7 means.

The text of 1:7 in Arabic doesn't say anything about Jews or Christians. Muslims have always had diverse views on scriptural interpretation. Assuming that an extreme and minority interpretation is the majority position only promotes misunderstanding and demonization.

What I have called for repeatedly is reform in Islam. The bible has been revised and softened many times. The same needs to be done to the Quran.

I don't know how someone could decide how to best conduct reform of a religion when they make incorrect assumptions about bare basics of the religion's scripture and the majority of its followers' beliefs.

I'm applying some basic cognitive science and propaganda 101 to this issue. The fact that this phrase or sentiment is spoken out loud billions of times every day [...]

It's not. The verse is spoken billions of times a day; the phrase you're talking about, "God is angry with Jews," is not, because it doesn't even exist in the verse.

[...] is the essence of propaganda, and propaganda's powerful effectiveness is consistent with what we know in cognitive science.

I don't think ANYONE should be repeating hateful slogans day after day after day after day... And anyone who does ought to be called out.

Sure. Since the text of Qur'an 1:7 (the actual text, not some fundamentalist interpretation) is not a "hateful slogan," I don't see how any of the above applies to it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Agreed. But I don't think Hamas is a product of socioeconomic problems. I think Hamas is a product of Islamism.

I think socioeconomic and geopolitical problems have been the primary empowering factors for Islamism for several decades. I don't see socioeconomic problems and Islamism as mutually exclusive; I think poverty, desperation, oppression, and other poor living conditions are usually a fertile ground for radicalization. There are historical examples of this outside the Middle East, too, and they involve various religions and ideologies.

 

[Pogo]

What I have called for repeatedly is reform in Islam. The bible has been revised and softened many times.

Please enlighten us, what passages were removed that had been used to justify killing Moslem infidels in the Crusades or against the Inquistion or that were used to justify slavery and racism?

 

[icehorse]

The way to eliminate Hamas is to
eliminate the reasons Hamas exists.

Hamas largely exists because the Quran provides instructions for it.

The Quran has been guiding Islamists long before there was a "West" to speak of. Have you ever heard of the Barbary slave trade?

 

[icehorse]

I don't know how someone could decide how to best conduct reform of a religion when they make incorrect assumptions about bare basics of the religion's scripture and the majority of its followers' beliefs.

I wasn't volunteering

ure. Since the text of Qur'an 1:7 (the actual text, not some fundamentalist interpretation) is not a "hateful slogan," I don't see how any of the above applies to it.

The "fundamentalist version" has been printed and distributed around the world almost 1/4 BILLION times if memory serves.

 

[icehorse]

Please enlighten us, what passages were removed that had been used to justify killing Moslem infidels in the Crusades or against the Inquistion or that were used to justify slavery and racism?

Oh the Crusades, please tell us all about how horrible the Crusades were...

I think in terms of the Bible, a huge shift has been away from the OT and towards many modified NTs.

 

[Pogo]

Oh the Crusades, please tell us all about how horrible the Crusades were...

I think in terms of the Bible, a huge shift has been away from the OT and towards many modified NTs.

One religious group slaughtering another because of what they thought their book was saying.
The Abrahamic religions all have such a history of being peaceful.

 

[Watchmen]

“Zionists don’t deserve to live.”

Yep, totally innocent and legitimate protest. *eyeroll*

 

[icehorse]

One religious group slaughtering another because of what they thought their book was saying.
The Abrahamic religions all have such a history of being peaceful.

I'm no fan of the Bible, but do you understand what motivated the Crusades?