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Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It's sooo fun to be misquoted, ffs.

What I've said is that the world needs to step in and eliminate Hamas.

And not just that, based on what I've seen so far, even if we limit our focus to this thread. I can quote a bunch of other posts, but I shouldn't quote posts from other threads per Rule 1. We can focus on this thread for now, and the point still stands.

Even in this thread, you're defending the IDF's actions and haven't criticized said actions despite their effects on civilians.

What I've said is that Islamists want to spread totalitarianism, and long standing immigration laws exclude those who hold totalitarian goals.

... and the definitions of "Islamists" and "those who hold totalitarian goals" are the main details here, of course—if the definitions are broadened enough, an average Muslim can be painted as either and demonized accordingly.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I'm a moderate liberal who favors:

Martin Luther King over Ibram X. Kendi
Equality over Equity
Critical Thinking over "Lived Experience"
Free Speech over cancel culture
I probably agree with the first (I don't know Ibram X. Kendi)
I agree with the second
I agree with the fourth


The third, I would phrase it as, I favor:
Critical Thinking + "Lived Experience"
Over
Critical Thinking – "Lived Experience"
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Even in this thread, you're defending the IDF's actions and haven't criticized said actions despite their effects on civilians.
The world needs to step up NOW and eliminate Hamas.
The world should have done it 20 years ago.

... and the definitions of "Islamists" and "those who hold totalitarian goals" are the main details here, of course—if the definitions are broadened enough, an average Muslim can be painted as either and demonized accordingly.
I think the definition of "Islamist" is pretty standard, and as I recall I provided a definition earlier. But if not, here it is:

An Islamist is a Muslim who wants to spread theocracy and wants to spread Sharia.

Working from memory, about 1/3 of the world's Muslims hold these goals.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The world needs to step up NOW and eliminate Hamas.
The world should have done it 20 years ago.

Should the IDF also end the bombing that has killed over 34,000 people—about half of whom are children—and injured over double that number and also end the starvation of civilians? Should the world step in to enact a two-state solution and eliminate the horrendous living conditions imposed on Gaza and the West Bank by the Israeli government?

You keep shifting the focus away from the effects of the bombing and siege of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank. The above is a direct question focused on them.

I think the definition of "Islamist" is pretty standard, and as I recall I provided a definition earlier. But if not, here it is:

An Islamist is a Muslim who wants to spread theocracy and wants to spread Sharia.

Shari'a is Islamic law, and there are various interpretations of exactly what it includes. The steps of prayer are part of Shari'a, as are the steps of making ablution, the rules of financial transactions, and many other aspects of life. So, in order to specify what "spreading Shari'a" entailed or whether an individual Muslim wanted to spread it, one would have to know how said Muslim interpreted Shari'a in the first place.

Working from memory, about 1/3 of the world's Muslims hold these goals.

I would ask for a reliable source for this major claim ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," after all), but I won't because that would derail the thread.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
How do you know these are all students, campuses such as UT Austin found many to be outside people not affiliated with the school. Interviews with some students indicate they have no clue what they are protesting about.

Lying about Israel committing genocide is grotesque. What they are doing does not fit the UN's definition. If it does show me how it does. Why aren't these protesters protesting the genocide of the Uyghurs or the Syrian Sunnis as well.

Are you ok with the death to america, death to israel, death to jews chants? The woman with the sign saying "Al Qasam's next targets" with an arrow pointing at jews or physically attacking jews on campus?
"How do you know these are all students, campuses such as UT Austin found many to be outside people not affiliated with the school."

Same with Northeastern University in Boston.

"The school said in a statement that the demonstration, which began two days ago, had become “infiltrated by professional organizers” with no affiliation to the school"

 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The world needs to step up NOW and eliminate Hamas.
The world should have done it 20 years ago.

How does one eliminate an organization like Hamas? It seems to me that it would be like trying to eliminate a drug cartel or an organized crime family. Even if you physically eliminate every known member, there will be others waiting to step up and take their place.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What I've said is that the world needs to step in and eliminate Hamas.
Fixing a symptom without addressing the cause,
(Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians for
approaching a century) will change nothing.
Aren't you aware of other groups attacking Israel?
Do you propose exterminating all of them?
What do you believe will be the consequence
of the associated massive civilian deaths?
Hint.....more violent retaliation.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Should the IDF also end the bombing that has killed over 34,000 people—about half of whom are children—and injured over double that number and also end the starvation of civilians? Should the world step in to enact a two-state solution and eliminate the horrendous living conditions imposed on Gaza and the West Bank by the Israeli government?

You keep shifting the focus away from the effects of the bombing and siege of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank. The above is a direct question focused on them.

I don't know to deal with Jihadists who have, being the deranged cowards that they are, embedded themselves in a civilian population that they are willing to use as human shields.

What's your idea?

Shari'a is Islamic law, and there are various interpretations of exactly what it includes. The steps of prayer are part of Shari'a, as are the steps of making ablution, the rules of financial transactions, and many other aspects of life. So, in order to specify what "spreading Shari'a" entailed or whether an individual Muslim wanted to spread it, one would have to know how said Muslim interpreted Shari'a in the first place.

I think we can simplify this passably well: The Sharia that makes Imams into legal judges is the Sharia that I'm strongly opposed to. IMO we must maintain the separation of church and state.

I would ask for a reliable source for this major claim ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," after all), but I won't because that would derail the thread.

There are lots of polls that are easy to find, but here are a few:

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds

I don't think my claim about Muslims wanting Sharia is at all extraordinary. It might be an inconvenient truth for many, but it's not extraordinary. And, FWIW, it's completely consistent with what's in the Quran.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Fixing a symptom without addressing the cause,
(Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians for
approaching a century) will change nothing.
Aren't you aware of other groups attacking Israel?
Do you propose exterminating all of them?
What do you believe will be the consequence
of the associated massive civilian deaths?
Hint.....more violent retaliation.

I'll say it one more time: Islamism and Jihadis have been around for centuries before Israel existed.

So how can Israel be the cause of Islamism and Jihadis?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
How does one eliminate an organization like Hamas? It seems to me that it would be like trying to eliminate a drug cartel or an organized crime family. Even if you physically eliminate every known member, there will be others waiting to step up and take their place.
It's a hard problem, no doubt.

But the solution has to include being honest about Jihadis and Islamism. And it needs to start from places like the UN who mostly ignore Jihadis and Islamists.

If we look at all the protests going on around the world, it's pretty clear that few of these protestors understand the nature of Jihadis and Islamists. These ideologies must be exposed to daylight.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'll say it one more time:
I suspect it's not the last.
Islamism and Jihadis have been around for centuries before Israel existed.

So how can Israel be the cause of Islamism and Jihadis?
Because of Israel's brutality towards non-Jews,
particularly Palestinians...& of course the genocide.
You cannot justify apartheid & genocide with
criticism of Islam. That's just re-purposing old
Schicklgruber's evil tool of demonization.
 
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We Never Know

No Slack
Should the IDF also end the bombing that has killed over 34,000 people—about half of whom are children—and injured over double that number and also end the starvation of civilians? Should the world step in to enact a two-state solution and eliminate the horrendous living conditions imposed on Gaza and the West Bank by the Israeli government?

You keep shifting the focus away from the effects of the bombing and siege of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank. The above is a direct question focused on them.



Shari'a is Islamic law, and there are various interpretations of exactly what it includes. The steps of prayer are part of Shari'a, as are the steps of making ablution, the rules of financial transactions, and many other aspects of life. So, in order to specify what "spreading Shari'a" entailed or whether an individual Muslim wanted to spread it, one would have to know how said Muslim interpreted Shari'a in the first place.



I would ask for a reliable source for this major claim ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," after all), but I won't because that would derail the thread.
"Should the world step in to enact a two-state solution"

Would a two state solution work?

Percent of Palestinians that favor a two state solution

"At the end of October 2023, the two-state solution had the support of 71.9% of Israeli Arabs and 28.6% of Israeli Jews. In that same month, according to Gallup, just 24% of Palestinians supported a two-state solution"

 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You cannot justify apartheid & genocide with
criticism of Islam.
I don't agree with those two assessments.

And I disagree that the source of Hamas is Israel. We disagree, no need to continue this particular conversation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't agree with those two assessments.

And I disagree that the source of Hamas is Israel. We disagree, no need to continue this particular conversation.
Hatred for Islam must be tempered
with some humanity for Muslims.
I loathe Islam. But I separate that from
valuing human rights for Muslims.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I'm sure they appreciate your approval

Sure but hamas wants all jews dead so criticizing Israel is disingenuous

Hamas engages with terrorism. I do not justify that. They very likely did October 7th in order to elicit this response from Israel so that the world would condemn Israel.

But I differentiate between the people who live in Palestine and Hamas. Just as I differentiate between Israel and people who live Israel.

Remember, there are also people in Israel that want all Palestinians dead. And Israel has the means to do it.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
I suspect it's not the last.

Because of Israel's brutality towards non-Jews,
particularly Palestinians...& of course the genocide.
You cannot justify apartheid & genocide with
criticism of Islam. That's just re-purposing old
Schicklgruber's evil tool of demonization.
I don’t consider your perspective or accusations accurate. The charges of apartheid and genocide are outright false. As well, Israel is not brutal towards non-Jews, including Arabs who live, work, and prosper in Israel.
Brutal against those who continually attack and are determined to annihilate Israel…that’s a different story.


“In this paper, we trace the history of apartheid and note that racial animus and motivation for differential treatment of groups are essential for determining whether apartheid exists.

We note first that the Arabs living in the territory of the former Mandate for Palestine (which includes Israel, the “West Bank,” and the Gaza Strip) are racially identical. Yet, Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, including the right to form political parties and stand for election, opportunities to serve as members of the Knesset, the judiciary, the diplomatic corps, the police, and so on—rights and privileges totally foreign and anathema to an apartheid State—thereby eviscerating claims of racial discrimination, which underlie apartheid. As such, differences in Israel’s treatment of Arabs living in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip and Arabs citizens of Israel are not—and, indeed, cannot be—“racially” motivated for the simple reason that both groups of Arabs are racially identical. For the claim of apartheid to be true, one would expect Israel to devise racially discriminatory policies against all Arabs under its control, which Israel clearly does not do. Hence, there must be another reason for the disparate treatment.

So, how does one explain the differences in treatment between Arab Israelis and Arabs in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip? The answer is not complicated. Arabs residing in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip are not now—and never have been—Israeli citizens and, therefore, cannot claim rights due to Israeli citizens. All countries favor their own citizens vis-à-vis non-citizens, and doing so is not an indication of apartheid simply because the two groups are treated differently. Moreover, many Arabs in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip are engaged in an ongoing armed conflict with Israel. Israel is faced with a hostile Arab population which has yet to come to terms with Israel’s existence and which actively seeks to destroy the Jewish State. That requires Israel to take certain measures for its national security. Because of the ongoing conflict, the relationship of Arabs in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip with Israel is governed primarily by the terms of the Law of Armed Conflict. As such, any acts or policies of alleged discrimination by Israel against the Arabs living in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip must be viewed through the lens of the Law of Armed Conflict. As long as Israel’s actions and policies comply with applicable international law, they are lawful. Israel’s actions are based on well-recognized national security needs, not racial animus.

The bottom line is this: Israel treats all of its citizens—be they Jew, Arab, or Druze—equally before the law, irrespective of any racial or ethnic differences. And, Israeli policies regarding application of military law, administrative detentions, defensive use of force, security check points, etc., in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip are all lawful security measures permitted under the Law of Armed Conflict. Accordingly, Israel’s actions are the very antithesis of apartheid, which should put to rest the apartheid lie once and for all.”

 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
You are not just wrong you're wrong on a galactic level. I'm saying the genocide of Jews is as explicit goal of hamas. Those pesky jews wont just shut up and take it huh? Does that aggravate you?

What Hamas did does aggravate me. As well as Israel's response. I am sorry I misinterpreted your post.

Note: My disdain for militaristic responses that aren't warranted or justified extends beyond this conflict.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a hard problem, no doubt.

But the solution has to include being honest about Jihadis and Islamism. And it needs to start from places like the UN who mostly ignore Jihadis and Islamists.

If we look at all the protests going on around the world, it's pretty clear that few of these protestors understand the nature of Jihadis and Islamists. These ideologies must be exposed to daylight.

Extreme ideologies can only gain traction under extreme conditions, particularly in situations of widespread poverty, desperation, and hopelessness.
I honestly take no stance on any of the particular issues about whose land belongs to whom. But as long as the people living there face impoverishment, deprivation, and oppression, then anyone with a chip on his shoulder is going to find a ready and willing pool of recruits.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don’t consider your perspective or accusations accurate.
It's likely because I'm neither Christian nor Jew.
This affords me objectivity to see Muslims, Christians,
& Jews as all fellow humans. All deserve justice,
peace, & prosperity. I've no reason to see Muslims
as an implacable enemy. Nor to see Christians &
Jews as saints without flaw.
We must end the bigotry fueling this conflict.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
As for Hamas being justified... really? Do you think that if Hamas had spent all the billions of dollars in aid money that the world sends it to create a peaceful, beautiful destination on the Mediterranean Sea, Israel would have invaded them? Of course not.

So long as the tourists didn't want to go fishing, I guess.

 
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