Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[Stevicus]

But my point is that sometimes a violent ideology shines thru even when people are treated well.

There are more than a few violent ideologies we've had to contend with over the years. The underlying ideology which seems common to multiple factions is nationalism, in one form or another.

Over 500 times in the Quran, non-Muslims are vilified, demeaned, besmirched, denounced, condemned, insulted, pilloried, denigrated, or otherwise maligned. Do you think maybe that's just a bit of a problem?

Yes, it could be a problem, although I see multiple problems with religion in general. But I don't see what we can do about it. We can't ban religion. We can't ban the Quran. We can't control what people think and believe.

If people are causing violence, inciting violence, or planning violence - we can try to stop that, however we can. It seems to be a never-ending fight; it's been going on for longer than I've been alive.

However, when I was a kid, it was treated more as just another theater in the overall Cold War, with the Soviets backing the PLO and the Arab States, which made it natural for the U.S. to support Israel to defend against what was perceived as Soviet expansionism. Of course, now, the Palestinians can't be considered pro-Soviet anymore. On the other hand, Hamas is considered pro-Iranian, so they're still associated with some outside power.

 

[icehorse]

Well treated Islamists protesting for a caliphate in Germany. I guess they were oppressed? (ffs)

Watch: Protesters call for Islamic state in Germany

 

[icehorse]

There are more than a few violent ideologies we've had to contend with over the years. The underlying ideology which seems common to multiple factions is nationalism, in one form or another.

If we zoom way, way out I think that the oligarchs are more or less running nations these days.

To me the two biggest ideologies we have to fight are, oligarchs and Islamists.

We start by acknowledging their true natures and not soft pedaling.

 

[Stevicus]

Well treated Islamists protesting for a caliphate in Germany. I guess they were oppressed? (ffs)

Watch: Protesters call for Islamic state in Germany

The article said it was 1000 protesters. There's always going to be some with nationalistic or otherwise malignant predilections. One can find that in every country, although it takes more than just the ideology to turn it into a critical mass strong enough to create this level of havoc or a civil war.
A large part of the reason the U.S. remained relatively stable during the 60s is because the economy was improving, and nobody really wanted to rock the boat all that much - even though there were serious issues and conflicting ideologies. There were some people calling for revolution or some sort of violent action - but most people remained peaceful and orderly.

It's never going to be perfect, but making sure the people are fed and housed in comfortable conditions goes a long way towards promoting political stability among the masses. Sure, there will always be a few malcontents and maniacs no matter what you try to do, but most can be expected to behave civilly, lawfully, and non-violently.

 

[icehorse]

The article said it was 1000 protesters. There's always going to be some with nationalistic or otherwise malignant predilections. One can find that in every country, although it takes more than just the ideology to turn it into a critical mass strong enough to create this level of havoc or a civil war.
A large part of the reason the U.S. remained relatively stable during the 60s is because the economy was improving, and nobody really wanted to rock the boat all that much - even though there were serious issues and conflicting ideologies. There were some people calling for revolution or some sort of violent action - but most people remained peaceful and orderly.

It's never going to be perfect, but making sure the people are fed and housed in comfortable conditions goes a long way towards promoting political stability among the masses. Sure, there will always be a few malcontents and maniacs no matter what you try to do, but most can be expected to behave civilly, lawfully, and non-violently.

Sad to say, I believe Islam is a special case. I hope you're correct, but I doubt it.

Countries all over Europe are regretting the mass immigration of Muslims they've been allowing in the last several decades. IMO, Islam is just simply not compatible with Western society

 

[Revoltingest]

Well treated Islamists protesting for a caliphate in Germany. I guess they were oppressed? (ffs)

Watch: Protesters call for Islamic state in Germany

You continually argue that Muslims will inexorably
seek violence & dominance. But without addressing
whether this justifies Israel's treatment of them over
75 or so years, & now rising to the level of genocide.
Do you approve of what Israel is doing?
Do you say Israel has no culpability for the violence?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Indeed, when trying to communicate with a woke, "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview, sometimes you have to simplify the argument.

When in doubt, be a hypocrite. Got it.

 

[Revoltingest]

When in doubt, be a hypocrite. Got it.

When did "woke" become a broad meaningless
epithet like "damnable" & "poopy headed"?

 

[Stevicus]

Sad to say, I believe Islam is a special case. I hope you're correct, but I doubt it.

Countries all over Europe are regretting the mass immigration of Muslims they've been allowing in the last several decades. IMO, Islam is just simply not compatible with Western society

Most seem to be compatible.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When did "woke" become a broad meaningless
epithet like "damnable" & "poopy headed"?

To be fair, I'd say "damnable" and "poopy headed" are considerably less broad and more meaningful than "woke" is now. In fact, I would argue that it tends to be so vacuous that the use of it can effectively remove meaning or specificity from surrounding context. Like some kind of ideological black hole.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I don't track the background of protesters.
You remind me of Nixonesque Republicans who
who defended the Vietnam War by claiming that
protesters were tools of Marxist agents.

When someone can't argue rationally against the
protests, people always invent something to criticize
about the protesters. The old ad hominem tactic.

I never said any of this.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

"How do you know these are all students, campuses such as UT Austin found many to be outside people not affiliated with the school."

Same with Northeastern University in Boston.

"The school said in a statement that the demonstration, which began two days ago, had become “infiltrated by professional organizers” with no affiliation to the school"

Anti-war protesters dig in as some schools close encampments after reports of antisemitic activity

With the death toll mounting in the Gaza war, protesters are demanding that schools cut financial ties to Israel and divest from companies they say are enabling the conflict.

apnews.com

It is obvious there is money flowing into these protests from outside sources.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is obvious there is money flowing into these protests from outside sources.

That's a pretty serious allegation. Can you demonstrate it to be true?

Meanwhile, the money flowing into funding the war, cracking down on protesters and using media coverage to disparage those same protesters goes completely unremarked?

 

[icehorse]

You continually argue that Muslims will inexorably
seek violence & dominance. But without addressing
whether this justifies Israel's treatment of them over
75 or so years, & now rising to the level of genocide.
Do you approve of what Israel is doing?
Do you say Israel has no culpability for the violence?

You continually misquote me. When you stop doing that, our debate can proceed.

 

[icehorse]

Most seem to be compatible.

Many are, indeed. But we also know that a minority of extremists can have an outsized impact on the world, and Islam has more than its share of extremists

 

[libre]

It is obvious there is money flowing into these protests from outside sources.

I've been attending rallies for Palestine in my current city since I moved here around 2019ish, and seen it grow from a small handful of organizers into what it is now. The idea that there is any 'outside sources' funding this is wildly disconnected from what I've seen here. If you had any evidence to present I would review it but I am doubtful such exists.

I've not aware of much money in anti-war protests now or historically, but there are many fortunes made for those who oil the war machine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You continually misquote me. When you stop doing that, our debate can proceed.

There is no misquote in that post.

Please answer Revoltingest's questions:

Do you approve of what Israel is doing?
Do you say Israel has no culpability for the violence?

 

[Alien826]

While that's often true, there are lots of exceptions. All across Europe there are issues with Islamist immigrants who have been treated quite well by their hosts and are still pursuing Sharia.

And (in the USA at least) there are Christian "groups" that would just love to institute (their version of) Biblical laws. In recent years they have had a quite a lot of success, more so than the Islamists, I think. Let's not ignore the domestic enemy while confronting the immigrants.

 

[Stevicus]

Many are, indeed. But we also know that a minority of extremists can have an outsized impact on the world, and Islam has more than its share of extremists

Yes, and there is the danger of extremism begetting further extremism - which seems to be the problem at hand. Some people might even try to justify extremism by claiming that they have to be extreme in order to fight the extremists from the other side. Even within America, we have extremists for Christian nationalism, some of whom act like they're spoiling for a fight from the Muslim extremists. Like that pastor who made a big thing about burning a bunch of Qurans, which angered Muslims in other countries. Then there were those people in Texas who held that "draw Muhammad" contest after that Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack. Just openly taunting them, and practically daring them to try something.

That's where we might have to be more prudent. We can do our best to try to contain extremism from the other side, but also have to restrain it on our own side, too.

 

[Alien826]

Perhaps Israel would have backed off the blockade a bit if it saw all that aid money going to building a peaceful, beautiful Gaza.

Maybe, maybe not. It's a question of who is prepared to take the first step, right? In Israel's case, they would have to simply defend against rocket attacks while continuing to treat the vast mass of Gazans (and West Bank Arabs) better. That doesn't seem to fit their actions (not words) which seem to indicate that the objective is the make the Palestinians as uncomfortable as possible in the hope they will somehow "go away". Hamas and other Islamic groups are too dedicated to violence to make a change. That leaves the average Palestinian (yes I'm convinced they exist) that dearly wants to live a life comparable to the average Israeli citizen but has no feasible route to attain that. As the saying goes, "When elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers".