Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[Shadow Wolf]

There's a reason the translation inserts commentary in parentheses; it's not part of the verse, and it's not how the majority understand the verse.

It has been awhile so this will not be my most graceful question?
Is that one of the what's considered a lesser translation of the Quran? The name if the specific translator, I think I've heard it called?
Your post brought to mind a conversation I had here many years ago when I was looking for a Quran to read. I just remember one particular translation was way more favored and recommended, about on par with a Southern Baptist church recommending the KJV.

 

[icehorse]

And (in the USA at least) there are Christian "groups" that would just love to institute (their version of) Biblical laws. In recent years they have had a quite a lot of success, more so than the Islamists, I think. Let's not ignore the domestic enemy while confronting the immigrants.

I agree, but THIS thread is about Islam.

 

[icehorse]

Maybe, maybe not. It's a question of who is prepared to take the first step, right? In Israel's case, they would have to simply defend against rocket attacks while continuing to treat the vast mass of Gazans (and West Bank Arabs) better. That doesn't seem to fit their actions (not words) which seem to indicate that the objective is the make the Palestinians as uncomfortable as possible in the hope they will somehow "go away". Hamas and other Islamic groups are too dedicated to violence to make a change. That leaves the average Palestinian (yes I'm convinced they exist) that dearly wants to live a life comparable to the average Israeli citizen but has no feasible route to attain that. As the saying goes, "When elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers".

Defending against rocket attacks is - sadly - far from simple.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I think "the world" should have stepped in decades ago. "The world" needs to be cleat that terrorism will not be tolerated. And for at least the last 20 years, the Hamas terrorists have been allowed operate largely unimpeded.

I suspect that what's needed is a more or less permanent UN peace keeping force in Gaza.

 

[Pogo]

I agree, but THIS thread is about Islam.

Which you are presenting as an exception to something without reference.

 

[Revoltingest]

You continually misquote me. When you stop doing that, our debate can proceed.

Find an example.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree, but THIS thread is about Islam.

No, it is not about Islam.
Read the title & OP....

I like seeing that a significant segment of society
is bucking the status quo of unqualified for Israel's
apartheid, human rights violations, fleecing US
taxpayers, & conducting genocide.
Students are often a bellwether. I hope this
portends a shift away from USA supporting vile
regimes.

Protests in New York as US campuses brace for more unrest over Gaza war: Updates​

Columbia University, the epicenter of the demonstrations, said classes will provide a virtual learning option through the end of the semester.
www.usatoday.com

 

[sayak83]

Does Israel have a right to defend itself "yes" or "no"?

The right is severely constrained by the rules of war and international law if it's beyond its states borders.

I will give an example.
A bank robber robs a bank and kills a few of the bank staff. Then the gang hides in a slum neighborhood where the gang has quite a lot of local influence. The bank security guards sets fire to the entire neighborhood and kills every person in it citing the right to defend itself.
How should the law deal with this bank?
Thanks.
And yes the gang has a motto that rich businessman should not exist, equality for all etc.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Defending against rocket attacks is - sadly - far from simple.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I think "the world" should have stepped in decades ago. "The world" needs to be cleat that terrorism will not be tolerated. And for at least the last 20 years, the Hamas terrorists have been allowed operate largely unimpeded.

I suspect that what's needed is a more or less permanent UN peace keeping force in Gaza.

And what should the UN do about the continual, illegal settling of Palestinian territory by Israel that emboldens and empowers Hamas, and potential war crimes of the Israeli state against the people of Gaza and the West Bank? Do you support equally harsh measures for the significantly higher civilian body count of these actions?

 

[sayak83]

How do they work "much harder" for a two state solution with people who have absolutely no desire for a two state solution? Explain how that works in detail.

1) Israel returns to its UN mandated borders and razes all settlements beyond it
2) A joint UN mandated force managed by Egypt and Turkey takes over the security of the Palestine state area until a government is organized. The two states, and UN provide security guarantee to Israel such that any strike from the Palestine territories managed by them will require reparations from these states to Israel (otherwise there will be sanctions). US takes security guarantee on Israel's side with a mutual defense treaty in case Iran or Egypt suddenly decides to attack her. In the other hand if Israel attacks the Palestine territory, Turkey and NATO has to defend Palestine against Israel.
3) Eventually a demilitarized Palestine state will be constituted with a local police but no armed forces, with its security managed by UN peacekeepers or Egypt/Turkey for a 30 year period.
4) Hamas will be entirety dismantled and its leaders killed or imprisoned like ISIL or Al Quieda.

This will simply be done. No need for any consultation in my opinion. Both Israel and Palestine should be sanctioned and blockaded to hell till they agree to this.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, and there is the danger of extremism begetting further extremism - which seems to be the problem at hand. Some people might even try to justify extremism by claiming that they have to be extreme in order to fight the extremists from the other side. Even within America, we have extremists for Christian nationalism, some of whom act like they're spoiling for a fight from the Muslim extremists. Like that pastor who made a big thing about burning a bunch of Qurans, which angered Muslims in other countries. Then there were those people in Texas who held that "draw Muhammad" contest after that Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack. Just openly taunting them, and practically daring them to try something.

That's where we might have to be more prudent. We can do our best to try to contain extremism from the other side, but also have to restrain it on our own side, too.

This might be our biggest point of disagreement.

When it comes to public speech I don't think we can afford to limit our speech so as to avoid "giving offense". First of all, generally speaking, I don't think offense can be given. I think taking offense is a subjective decision that the listener makes. For example, I don't find the burning of holy books to be offensive. In fact I think it can be an effective act of free speech.

Civil, free society depends on free speech.

And next, if we have to shape our public speech because we're afraid we might provoke some group, we are infantilizing that group. We can't molly-coddle religious extremists, they have to grow up.

 

[Revoltingest]

1) Israel returns to its UN mandated borders and razes all settlements beyond it
2) A joint UN mandated force managed by Egypt and Turkey takes over the security of the Palestine state area until a government is organized. The two states, and UN provide security guarantee to Israel such that any strike from the Palestine territories managed by them will require reparations from these states to Israel (otherwise there will be sanctions).
3) Eventually a demilitarized Palestine state will be constituted with a local police but no armed forces, with its security managed by UN peacekeepers or Egypt/Turkey for a 30 year period.
4) Hamas will be entirety dismantled and its leaders killed or imprisoned like ISIL or Al Quieda.

This will simply be done. No need for any consultation in my opinion. Both Israel and Palestine should be sanctioned and blockaded to hell till they agree to this.

Killing all the leaders won't inspire those
leaders to negotiate peace.
There should also be a truth & reconciliation
process in the manner of S Africa.
USA owes a great deal of aid & compensation
to Palestinians for its role in oppression &
genocide.

 

[Alien826]

Defending against rocket attacks is - sadly - far from simple.

They did very well against, what was it, 300 rockets and drones launched by Iran.

The whole point is to have a more measured response. And that there will be a period of time when hostilities will continue while the "softer" approach takes effect.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I think "the world" should have stepped in decades ago. "The world" needs to be cleat that terrorism will not be tolerated. And for at least the last 20 years, the Hamas terrorists have been allowed operate largely unimpeded.

I suspect that what's needed is a more or less permanent UN peace keeping force in Gaza.

That makes sense, but you still seem to be seeing the problem as being totally on the Palestinian side. Should the UN force control Israel also?

I'll take this opportunity to mention something I hear on TV a lot, and my reaction to it. It goes like this "The war could be over immediately if Hamas would just release the hostages and stop fighting". Why that's silly is that just about any war can be ended by one side surrendering unconditionally. If Britain had surrendered to Germany after Dunkirk, (probably) WW2 would have ended there. If the Ukrainians simply handed over their country to the Russians, that would end the war. The statement about Hamas contains the implied idea that one side bears all the blame for the conflict. Things are rarely that one sided.

 

[sayak83]

Killing all the leaders won't inspire those
leaders to negotiate peace.
There should also be a truth & reconciliation
process in the manner of S Africa.
USA owes a great deal of aid & compensation
to Palestinians for its role in oppression &
genocide.

The leaders have not delivered peace in the last 70 years. High time to get rid of them.
Have you kept up with the news in South Africa recently? The great South African National Congress is working like a mafia enterprise selling all its nations treasures to corporators and gangs. I do not expect any improvement in leadership anywhere. So what I am saying is what needs to be done to stop the Israel Palestine bickering to destabilize international order again and again.

 

[Revoltingest]

The leaders have not delivered peace in the last 70 years. High time to get rid of them.
Have you kept up with the news in South Africa recently? The great South African National Congress is working like a mafia enterprise selling all its nations treasures to corporators and gangs. I do not expect any improvement in leadership anywhere. So what I am saying is what needs to be done to stop the Israel Palestine bickering to destabilize international order again and again.

I advise using the Truth & Reconciliation
process, not emulating its corruption.

 

[sayak83]

I advise using the Truth & Reconciliation
process, not emulating its corruption.

You are being idealistic. There does not need to be any truth and reconciliation between two rival nations. There just need to be enough negative consequences that cause them to desist from indiscriminate slaughter...like China and Japan or USA and USSR etc.

 

[icehorse]

That makes sense, but you still seem to be seeing the problem as being totally on the Palestinian side. Should the UN force control Israel also?

I think the problem started 100 years ago when the Brits did such a horrible job of dividing up the Ottoman empire.

As far as where the problem lies today, I mostly blame the Abrahamic religions. This little patch of ground is only important because of some ancient, competing religious beliefs. And yes, some Israeli's are clinging to their beliefs and that's making things worse.

As far as how Israel has conducted this war, we're in uncharted territory. I think anyone who claims to know how best to battle Jihadists who have embedded themselves into a civilian population and demonstrated their willingness to use the population as human shields has a LOT of explaining to do. I don't think the world's best, most experienced generals know how best to conduct such a war.

 

[Alien826]

I think the problem started 100 years ago when the Brits did such a horrible job of dividing up the Ottoman empire.

And it went on from there.

As far as where the problem lies today, I mostly blame the Abrahamic religions. This little patch of ground is only important because of some ancient, competing religious beliefs. And yes, some Israeli's are clinging to their beliefs and that's making things worse.

I think we have to be careful when we put all the blame on religious belief. Sometimes religion is just an identifier for a cultural group. The "troubles" in Northern Ireland were described as being "Catholic versus Protestant' but in fact there were two different communities involved, with different histories and the majority group was treating the minority group badly.

As far as how Israel has conducted this war, we're in uncharted territory. I think anyone who claims to know how best to battle Jihadists who have embedded themselves into a civilian population and demonstrated their willingness to use the population as human shields has a LOT of explaining to do. I don't think the world's best, most experienced generals know how best to conduct such a war.

Perhaps we could observe how police (ideally) handle hostage situations. They don't go in with guns blazing, but first contain the situation to ensure no uninvolved people come to harm. They then attempt to negotiate with the hostage takers. At the same time there will be snipers who are watching for a chance to take out a criminal without harming a hostage. Yes, the situation is different and maybe none of this would work, but I'm just suggesting that there are different approaches available.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are being idealistic.

You are being inhuman towards the victims.

There does not need to be any truth and reconciliation between two rival nations.

The innocent Palestinians who've been subject to
apartheid, imprisonment without trial, murder, land
theft, genocide, & starvation are not rival entities.
They're victims of Israel, abetted by USA.

There just need to be enough negative consequences that cause them to desist from indiscriminate slaughter...like China and Japan or USA and USSR etc.

Are you really equating Palestinian
civilians with Hamas fighters?

 

[icehorse]

Perhaps we could observe how police (ideally) handle hostage situations. They don't go in with guns blazing, but first contain the situation to ensure no uninvolved people come to harm. They then attempt to negotiate with the hostage takers. At the same time there will be snipers who are watching for a chance to take out a criminal without harming a hostage. Yes, the situation is different and maybe none of this would work, but I'm just suggesting that there are different approaches available.

Largely agreed.

But here we have thousands of hostage takers to deal with, not just a handful. That said, I agree a lot of different approaches should be considered.

I just think that anyone who claims - more or less - "Israel is doing it wrong", doesn't grasp the true nature of the situation. What I mostly see in the anti-Israel crowd is an unwillingness to admit to Hamas's true nature.

 

[Revoltingest]

I just think that anyone who claims - more or less - "Israel is doing it wrong", doesn't grasp the true nature of the situation.

Does this mean that you approve of Israel's actions?

What I mostly see in the anti-Israel crowd is an unwillingness to admit to Hamas's true nature.

We're unwilling to admit to your pro-Israel
warped extreme negative characterizations
of Islam & all Muslims.