Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[sayak83]

You are being inhuman towards the victims.

The innocent Palestinians who've been subject to
apartheid, imprisonment without trial, murder, land
theft, genocide, & starvation are not rival entities.
They're victims of Israel, abetted by USA.

Are you really equating Palestinian
civilians with Hamas fighters?

I am proposing how to stop further suffering of civilians in between an absolutely hostile and irreconcilable set of warring parties. If people want truth and reconciliation in the future...please be my guest.
Let me be blunt. The way the war is going, there will be a nuclear exchange between Iran and Jerusalem in 30 years time. It's good to stop that yes?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am proposing how to stop further suffering of civilians in between an absolutely hostile and irreconcilable set of warring parties. If people want truth and reconciliation in the future...please be my guest.
Let me be blunt. The way the war is going, there will be a nuclear exchange between Iran and Jerusalem in 30 years time. It's good to stop that yes?

Yes.

 

[Ignatius A]

1) Israel returns to its UN mandated borders and razes all settlements beyond it
2) A joint UN mandated force managed by Egypt and Turkey takes over the security of the Palestine state area until a government is organized. The two states, and UN provide security guarantee to Israel such that any strike from the Palestine territories managed by them will require reparations from these states to Israel (otherwise there will be sanctions). US takes security guarantee on Israel's side with a mutual defense treaty in case Iran or Egypt suddenly decides to attack her. In the other hand if Israel attacks the Palestine territory, Turkey and NATO has to defend Palestine against Israel.
3) Eventually a demilitarized Palestine state will be constituted with a local police but no armed forces, with its security managed by UN peacekeepers or Egypt/Turkey for a 30 year period.
4) Hamas will be entirety dismantled and its leaders killed or imprisoned like ISIL or Al Quieda.

This will simply be done. No need for any consultation in my opinion. Both Israel and Palestine should be sanctioned and blockaded to hell till they agree to this.

I think your plan would work but Hamas doesnt care about sanctions, if they cared about anything they wouldn't use Palestinian civilians as shields. They have explicitly stated they want Israel eradicated. That's what they care about. People who are willing to kill themselves and their own people aren't going to care about sanctions.

 

[Alien826]

Largely agreed.

But here we have thousands of hostage takers to deal with, not just a handful. That said, I agree a lot of different approaches should be considered.

I never suggested it was easy.

I just think that anyone who claims - more or less - "Israel is doing it wrong", doesn't grasp the true nature of the situation. What I mostly see in the anti-Israel crowd is an unwillingness to admit to Hamas's true nature.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that something is wrong without having some perfect solution to offer in its place. To the example at hand, I believe it is wrong to kill thousands of innocent people to get at some lesser number of miscreants. I go on to say "there must be a better way", while admitting that I am not an expert on the subject.

I can't speak for others, but I am quite happy to state that the events of 10/7 were wrong, very wrong. I will also say, and your remarks above seem to suggest that you agree with me, that the whole picture must be taken into consideration when solutions are discussed.

 

[Heyo]

1) Israel returns to its UN mandated borders and razes all settlements beyond it
2) A joint UN mandated force managed by Egypt and Turkey takes over the security of the Palestine state area until a government is organized. The two states, and UN provide security guarantee to Israel such that any strike from the Palestine territories managed by them will require reparations from these states to Israel (otherwise there will be sanctions). US takes security guarantee on Israel's side with a mutual defense treaty in case Iran or Egypt suddenly decides to attack her. In the other hand if Israel attacks the Palestine territory, Turkey and NATO has to defend Palestine against Israel.
3) Eventually a demilitarized Palestine state will be constituted with a local police but no armed forces, with its security managed by UN peacekeepers or Egypt/Turkey for a 30 year period.
4) Hamas will be entirety dismantled and its leaders killed or imprisoned like ISIL or Al Quieda.

This will simply be done. No need for any consultation in my opinion. Both Israel and Palestine should be sanctioned and blockaded to hell till they agree to this.

And that would be against all international conventions.

You can't send UN troops into a war zone where all parties are against it.
The thing is that both Palestinians and Israelis want it that way. Neither party has ever agreed to an enduring peace contract. At best, it were time-outs until the next attack.
And yes, I say that about the majority. Israel keeps electing hardliners, and Palestine voted for Hamas (and didn't get rid of them when they turned dictators).

The only thing we can do, is to sit at the sideline and watch - and stop cheering for either side or provide them with weapons.

 

[Pogo]

I think the problem started 100 years ago when the Brits did such a horrible job of dividing up the Ottoman empire.

As far as where the problem lies today, I mostly blame the Abrahamic religions. This little patch of ground is only important because of some ancient, competing religious beliefs. And yes, some Israeli's are clinging to their beliefs and that's making things worse.

As far as how Israel has conducted this war, we're in uncharted territory. I think anyone who claims to know how best to battle Jihadists who have embedded themselves into a civilian population and demonstrated their willingness to use the population as human shields has a LOT of explaining to do. I don't think the world's best, most experienced generals know how best to conduct such a war.

So all of your arguments about the problems with Islam were just distractions to what was obviously the problem in the first place, Human politics and locally mutual religions.
That said, how about we work on real solutions with that in mind?

 

[sayak83]

And that would be against all international conventions.

You can't send UN troops into a war zone where all parties are against it.
The thing is that both Palestinians and Israelis want it that way. Neither party has ever agreed to an enduring peace contract. At best, it were time-outs until the next attack.
And yes, I say that about the majority. Israel keeps electing hardliners, and Palestine voted for Hamas (and didn't get rid of them when they turned dictators).

The only thing we can do, is to sit at the sideline and watch - and stop cheering for either side or provide them with weapons.

The UN can do whatever all the 5 veto wielding nations agree to do. Unfortunately resolving conflicts have never been something they have wanted. So UN is next to useless today in international security matters.
Unilateral action by US, NATO and EU onboard can do the same thing. It was a problem created by Britain, so it's high time EU and NATO stop blabbering ineffectual statements and do what needs to be done.

 

[sayak83]

I think your plan would work but Hamas doesnt care about sanctions, if they cared about anything they wouldn't use Palestinian civilians as shields. They have explicitly stated they want Israel eradicated. That's what they care about. People who are willing to kill themselves and their own people aren't going to care about sanctions.

See point 4). Hamas eradication is on the agenda. Hamas, like ISIL or Al-Qaeda, can't be allowed to rule lands.
The sanctions and blockade is for Israel to be on board. Hamas can't seriously stop a NATO backed Turkish-Egyptian troop advance into Palestine. Israel can.
The current Israeli leadership is destroying the nations future in their attempts to shore up a far right agenda. Israel cannot seriously believe that the Islamic nation states surrounding it will always be weak or not have nuclear armaments, or that there will be a superpower like US always at her back. Power distributions change with time. See Japan vis-a-vis China. The fate of Europe backed Crusading nations should serve as a reminder on what happens if you forcibly plant a foreign kingdom in the middle of this hostile neighborhood. Israel has to create a lasting structure that is acceptable at least to some of the Muslim powers of the region so that it can build local agreements.

 

[Ignatius A]

I never suggested it was easy.


I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that something is wrong without having some perfect solution to offer in its place. To the example at hand, I believe it is wrong to kill thousands of innocent people to get at some lesser number of miscreants. I go on to say "there must be a better way", while admitting that I am not an expert on the subject.

I can't speak for others, but I am quite happy to state that the events of 10/7 were wrong, very wrong. I will also say, and your remarks above seem to suggest that you agree with me, that the whole picture must be taken into consideration when solutions are discussed.

What's the solution when one side of the problem wants the complete annihilation of the other side?

See point 4). Hamas eradication is on the agenda. Hamas, like ISIL or Al-Qaeda, can't be allowed to rule lands.

So you're under the impression when Hamas can no longer rule lands they will no longer want to eradicate Jews?

 

[sayak83]

What's the solution when one side of the problem wants the complete annihilation of the other side?

So you're under the impression when Hamas can no longer rule lands they will no longer want to eradicate Jews?

I edited my last post. Please see
Al Quaida wants to eradicate USA. What of it. What part of dismantling Hamas and killing its leaders was not clear.

 

[Ignatius A]

I edited my last post. Please see
Al Quaida wants to eradicate USA. What of it. What part of dismantling Hamas and killing its leaders was not clear.

I get it you think telling a group of people they can't rule lands and killing their leaders will make them go away.

 

[sayak83]

I get it you think telling a group of people they can't rule lands and killing their leaders will make them go away.

Criminal gangs and terrorist gangs never go away. They just need to be purged again and again to keep the situation under control. Bit like Covid or Malaria. Here the situation is no different as how one deals with ISIL or Al-Qaeda or other such organizations.

 

[Ignatius A]

Criminal gangs and terrorist gangs never go away. They just need to be purged again and again to keep the situation under control. Bit like Covid or Malaria. Here the situation is no different as how one deals with ISIL or Al-Qaeda or other such organizations.

Seems Israel is doing a good job of doing just that

 

[sayak83]

Seems Israel is doing a good job of doing just that

No. Israel is killing civilians in mind-boggling numbers. Look at the example of the bank robbers. You did not reply to it. It's self defense excuse of destroying and killing done thousands of civilians is just pathetic. Israel is just doing the scorch and burn tactics Romans used to "pacify" rebellions. The current Israeli leadership should be hauled to the international criminal court for what they are doing

 

[Ignatius A]

No. Israel is killing civilians in mind-boggling numbers. Look at the example of the bank robbers. You did not reply to it. It's self defense excuse of destroying and killing done thousands of civilians is just pathetic. Israel is just doing the scorch and burn tactics Romans used to "pacify" rebellions. The current Israeli leadership should be hauled to the international criminal court for what they are doing

No hamas is doing that putting civilians in harms way. They could try not attacking Israel anymore but that doesn't get them to their goal of eradicating Jews. The Jews just won't take it sitting down a you're huh? It really seems to aggravate a lot of people

 

[Revoltingest]

Criminal gangs and terrorist gangs never go away. They just need to be purged again and again to keep the situation under control. Bit like Covid or Malaria. Here the situation is no different as how one deals with ISIL or Al-Qaeda or other such organizations.

It's useful to consider what motivates terrorists.
If it's a reaction to violent oppression, then ending
this practice would solve the problem, & obviate
having to exterminate / "purge" any group.

 

[sayak83]

No hamas is doing that putting civilians in harms way. They could try not attacking Israel anymore but that doesn't get them to their goal of eradicating Jews. The Jews just won't take it sitting down a you're huh? It really seems to aggravate a lot of people

Its aggravating because it's criminal, plain and simple.

 

[Ignatius A]

It's useful to consider what motivates terrorists.
If it's a reaction to violent oppression, then ending
this practice would solve the problem, & obviate
having to exterminate / "purge" any group.

It's true that if Hamas killed every jew on the planet that would solve their problem. Maybe that's why they have that as one of their goals.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its aggravating because it's criminal, plain and simple.

But if one can blame Hamas, then any crime
becomes justified to Israel & allies. This lifts
all restraints on mass murder, starvation,
torture....because Israel is never culpable.
It's an airtight excuse for reckless vengeance.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's true that if Hamas killed every jew on the planet that would solve their problem. Maybe that's why they have that as one of their goals.

That's a convenient assumption underlying Israel's propaganda,
ie, that the enemy must be exterminated no matter the civilian
casualties because it's such an existential threat.
It reminds me of Nazi propaganda to exterminate the Jews,
who were also supposed to be an implacable enemy.
I don't buy it.
All humans can be reasoned with if given the chance.
Israel hasn't tried that yet.