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Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

Colt

Well-Known Member
I like seeing that a significant segment of society
is bucking the status quo of unqualified for Israel's
apartheid, human rights violations, fleecing US
taxpayers, & conducting genocide.
Students are often a bellwether. I hope this
portends a shift away from USA supporting vile
regimes.
Native Americans are like, oh, how adorable, they are concerned about occupation and genocides!
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
Native Americans are like, oh, how adorable, they are concerned about occupation and genocides!
The Assembly of First Nations unanimously recognized Palestinians as an Indigenous people and backed a ceasefire as early as December.
I am not aware of any alternative for natives residing in US reserves, but it has been consistent with what I've seen from AIM.

So if you mean to suggest that Native public opinion is against protesting Israel - you are mistaken.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
The Assembly of First Nations unanimously recognized Palestinians as an Indigenous people and backed a ceasefire as early as December.
I am not aware of any alternative for natives residing in US reserves, but it has been consistent with what I've seen from AIM.

So if you mean to suggest that Native public opinion is against protesting Israel - you are mistaken.
I assume people will understand irony. Europeans invaded North America, decimated the Native population and have occupied their nation(s) for 500 years. (Some) native Americans may find it interesting that Americans are concerned about the issue of occupation or the accusation of genocide.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I assume people will understand irony. Europeans invaded North America, decimated the Native population and have occupied their nation(s) for 500 years. (Some) native Americans may find it interesting that Americans are concerned about the issue of occupation or the accusation of genocide.

Yeah. Well, it was a while ago, and at some point, we decided that it was wrong and we would stop. After a while, we signed treaties and agreed to a system of international laws to govern these things.

I know that one can look sidewise at that, since the major powers engaged in wanton aggression, conquest, exploitation, and genocide on a global scale - and once they gained all the resources, wealth, and power, they decide: "Okay, we quit now. We've decided to be nice, liberal, just, and fair from here on out - and we expect everyone else to do the same! Or else we'll bomb them back to the Stone Age! The mighty West has spoken!"

So, I think a lot of people can recognize it for what it is, at least in terms of the larger picture of how America has operated these past centuries. But an individual taking a stance against injustice, oppression, genocide - as long as it's consistent with their overall principles and worldview, I don't see it as an issue, on an individual basis. It just depends on how it's presented.
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
I assume people will understand irony. Europeans invaded North America, decimated the Native population and have occupied their nation(s) for 500 years. (Some) native Americans may find it interesting that Americans are concerned about the issue of occupation or the accusation of genocide.
I've never understood this desire to retroactively apply current "standards" to a time that was nothing like it is today. Maybe people 500 years ago should have cared that a man may have felt like a woman but they didn't. They did what they did now it's time to move forward.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Is that it? A legal organization that voluntarily pay legal fees? You think that's sufficient evidence to suggest astro-turfing?
Notice I said "for starters". Mayor Adams and Columbia have said there are protesters not affiliated with the school at the encampment. Same with reports form UT Austin and other universities across the country. The Palestinian Solidarity Committee is on most college campuses and supply help to protesters, many of which are not affiliated with the school. Within our Lifetime is another group that helps organize protests.

Several pro-Palestine organizations are operating around the country, including Within Our Lifetime, and do not have public tax filings, according to an NBC investigation.

Instead, they use a progressive New York-based nonprofit group called Westchester People’s Action Coalition Foundation (WESPAC) as their fiscal sponsor to collect and process online donations. Tax law allows nonprofit groups with a 501(c)(3) status to collect money on behalf of smaller organizations.



Other groups have been funded by major U.S. foundations. IfNotNow has received $100,000 in the past five years from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. The organization’s stated goal is to “end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system.” The fund also awarded close to a half-million dollars to Jewish Voice for Peace, another Palestinian rights organization, over the same period.

At some schools, including UCLA, counter-protest in support of Jewish students have taken shape, escalating on campus-tension. A GoFundMe called “Bruins for Israel” has raised over $81,000 as of Monday to bring a “huge screen and big, loud speakers” to Dickson Plaza for the demonstrators, according to the Daily Bruin – more than double the fundraiser’s goal of $26,000.

Amid the recent wave of demonstrations both on and off college campuses, Jonathan Schanzer, a former Treasury Department official, said that the organizing parties are not organic but cultivated by potentially dangerous groups.

“They’re extremely organized. There are a lot of the Islamist-leaning groups that I think many of us have come to expect here,” Schanzer told NewsNation. “These are not spontaneous. They are not necessarily organic. They are cultivated by groups that have an axe to grind.”


Any actual evidence about serious crimes or damage coming out of the protests?
Really? This is everywhere. How about this:


Do you agree with the right to protest and freedom of speech? Do you agree with protests against killing civilians?
I agree with peaceful protests about any issue. But they have no right to disrupt other people's lives, threaten them or take over buildings etc.

I just find it very odd that you raise the allegation of money coming in to the protests (which you have failed to demonstrate or substantiate in any way) meanwhile ignoring the extremely widely reported and understood fact that those who aggressively stand against the protest have significantly large amounts of funds coming into them, and that the protest is very explicitly about the US government funding a foreign government's military operations the tune of billions.

Seems to me that the "follow the money" argument isn't something you actually believe in. You just want to disparage the protesters.
The government is not against the protests, they are against illegal protest activity. Are you?

I am not disparaging the protesters, I am pointing out that some are committing crimes like breaking into buildings etc. How is that disparaging?
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
Notice I said "for starters". Mayor Adams and Columbia have said there are protesters not affiliated with the school at the encampment. Same with reports form UT Austin and other universities across the country. The Palestinian Solidarity Committee is on most college campuses and supply help to protesters, many of which are not affiliated with the school. Within our Lifetime is another group that helps organize protests.

Several pro-Palestine organizations are operating around the country, including Within Our Lifetime, and do not have public tax filings, according to an NBC investigation.

Instead, they use a progressive New York-based nonprofit group called Westchester People’s Action Coalition Foundation (WESPAC) as their fiscal sponsor to collect and process online donations. Tax law allows nonprofit groups with a 501(c)(3) status to collect money on behalf of smaller organizations.



Other groups have been funded by major U.S. foundations. IfNotNow has received $100,000 in the past five years from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. The organization’s stated goal is to “end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system.” The fund also awarded close to a half-million dollars to Jewish Voice for Peace, another Palestinian rights organization, over the same period.

At some schools, including UCLA, counter-protest in support of Jewish students have taken shape, escalating on campus-tension. A GoFundMe called “Bruins for Israel” has raised over $81,000 as of Monday to bring a “huge screen and big, loud speakers” to Dickson Plaza for the demonstrators, according to the Daily Bruin – more than double the fundraiser’s goal of $26,000.

Amid the recent wave of demonstrations both on and off college campuses, Jonathan Schanzer, a former Treasury Department official, said that the organizing parties are not organic but cultivated by potentially dangerous groups.

“They’re extremely organized. There are a lot of the Islamist-leaning groups that I think many of us have come to expect here,” Schanzer told NewsNation. “These are not spontaneous. They are not necessarily organic. They are cultivated by groups that have an axe to grind.”




Really? This is everywhere. How about this:



I agree with peaceful protests about any issue. But they have no right to disrupt other people's lives, threaten them or take over buildings etc.


The government is not against the protests, they are against illegal protest activity. Are you?

I am not disparaging the protesters, I am pointing out that some are committing crimes like breaking into buildings etc. How is that disparaging?
Hamas has waged a very successful PR campaign against Israel and colleges and their students have proved to be useful idiots for them.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Notice I said "for starters".
It's not "a start" though, is it.

Mayor Adams and Columbia have said there are protesters not affiliated with the school at the encampment. Same with reports form UT Austin and other universities across the country.
And?

Firstly, so what? People can protest even if they're not students. This is not news.

Secondly, how exactly does that indicate some sort of outside funding?

The Palestinian Solidarity Committee is on most college campuses and supply help to protesters, many of which are not affiliated with the school.
Within our Lifetime is another group that helps organize protests.

Several pro-Palestine organizations are operating around the country, including Within Our Lifetime, and do not have public tax filings, according to an NBC investigation.

Instead, they use a progressive New York-based nonprofit group called Westchester People’s Action Coalition Foundation (WESPAC) as their fiscal sponsor to collect and process online donations. Tax law allows nonprofit groups with a 501(c)(3) status to collect money on behalf of smaller organizations.


My god! Charitable organisations and political advocacy groups support protests?! The sky must be falling!

Where's the evidence that these protests were astro-turfed?

Other groups have been funded by major U.S. foundations. IfNotNow has received $100,000 in the past five years from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. The organization’s stated goal is to “end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system.” The fund also awarded close to a half-million dollars to Jewish Voice for Peace, another Palestinian rights organization, over the same period.

At some schools, including UCLA, counter-protest in support of Jewish students have taken shape, escalating on campus-tension. A GoFundMe called “Bruins for Israel” has raised over $81,000 as of Monday to bring a “huge screen and big, loud speakers” to Dickson Plaza for the demonstrators, according to the Daily Bruin – more than double the fundraiser’s goal of $26,000.

Amid the recent wave of demonstrations both on and off college campuses, Jonathan Schanzer, a former Treasury Department official, said that the organizing parties are not organic but cultivated by potentially dangerous groups.

“They’re extremely organized. There are a lot of the Islamist-leaning groups that I think many of us have come to expect here,” Schanzer told NewsNation. “These are not spontaneous. They are not necessarily organic. They are cultivated by groups that have an axe to grind.”
Again, I see a lot of claims and zero evidence. It's just empty scaremongering.

Really? This is everywhere. How about this:

I said "serious crimes". Protests occupying buildings is pretty par-for-the-course.

I agree with peaceful protests about any issue. But they have no right to disrupt other people's lives, threaten them or take over buildings etc.
That depends on how the protest is being treated and what it's about. I would say "disrupting other people's lives" is justified if your argument is against genocide. I'd say on the scale of morality, one significantly outranks the other. Meanwhile, we've had police violently put down peaceful protests across the country.

The government is not against the protests, they are against illegal protest activity. Are you?
I am for freedom of speech, and against genocide. I think "illegal protest activity" isn't as serious a crime as aiding and abetting genocide.

Which matters more? Dead kids or a couple of broken windows?

I am not disparaging the protesters,
No, you're just implying they're not real protesters.

I am pointing out that some are committing crimes like breaking into buildings etc. How is that disparaging?
I notice you haven't said a thing about where the money is ACTUALLY going. You seem to care a damn sight more about charitable organizations and advocacy groups using meagre resources to support protesters than you do about billions of taxpayer dollars going towards the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. Nor do you care about these very highly funded and influential universities attempting to suppress the protests and support Israel's actions. No. As far as your concerned, any of the vast quantities of money that goes towards Israel, or goes towards institutions that support Israel, is not worth remarking on. But, if little Sally has a bake-sale to raise money for a Palestinian kid who got his arm blown off, you cry "See! There's money involved! ASTRO-TURF! ASTRO-TURF!"

Stop pretending you care about this "follow the money" nonsense. You don't. You just want to disparage the protesters.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Hamas has waged a very successful PR campaign against Israel and colleges and their students have proved to be useful idiots for them.
Ah yes, those crafty Hamas terrorists cunningly forcing Israel to kill thousands of children and commit war crimes that were widely reported in the global media.

Must be very powerful and influential, those Hamas chaps. Rupert Murdoch should be worried.
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
Ah yes, those crafty Hamas terrorists cunningly forcing Israel to kill thousands of children and commit war crimes that were widely reported in the global media.

Must be very powerful and influential, those Hamas chaps. Rupert Murdoch should be worried.
They've clearly duped you. Every child killed was killed by Hamas who used them as shields. It doesnt take a PhD to realize American leftists especially the young ones in college are especially weak minded and will believe whatever they are told to believe.

Until Hamas publicly renounces its stated goal of eradicating jews, I'm not moved by your weeping for then.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
They've clearly duped you. Every child killed was killed by Hamas who used them as shields. It doesnt take a PhD to realize American leftists especially the young ones in college are especially weak minded and will believe whatever they are told to believe.

Until Hamas publicly renounces its stated goal of eradicating I'm not impressed by your weeping for then.
Good thing I'm not weeping for them. What I care about are the tens of thousands of Gazan civilians currently being murdered by Israel.

Apparently, you don't. You only really care about Israeli civilians. Meanwhile, any kids being blown apart by bombs must have deserved it, right? After all, they committed the heinous crime of being born in Gaza, so their right to a life with four fully-functioning limbs is forfeit, according to you.

Believe it or not, there's moral dimensions beyond "support for Hamas" vs "support for Israel". It's actually possible to do neither. I know this may be terribly confusing for you, but you ought to try giving it a go some time. It's nice, having a consistent moral worldview like "Killing civilians is bad", rather than your "Killing civilians is bad, except if they're Gazan."
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
Good thing I'm not weeping for them. What I care about are the tens of thousands of Gazan civilians currently being murdered by Israel.

Apparently, you don't. You only really care about Israeli civilians. Meanwhile, any kids being blown apart by bombs must have deserved it, right? After all, they committed the heinous crime of being born in Gaza, so their right to a life with four fully-functioning limbs is forfeit, according to you.

Believe it or not, there's moral dimensions beyond "support for Hamas" vs "support for Israel". It's actually possible to do neither. I know this may be terribly confusing for you, but you ought to try giving it a go some time. It's nice, having a consistent moral worldview like "Killing civilians is bad", rather than your "Killing civilians is bad, except if they're Gazan."
If you actually cared about "Gazan" civilians you would be demanding that Hamas stop using them as shields and demand that Hamas publicly renounce their stated goal of eradicating Jews. Until then every death of a "Gazan" civilian is on the head of Hamas. People seem to really hate the fact that Jews won't just take but any more. It didn't seem to work out to well for them the last time they did.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
I assume people will understand irony. Europeans invaded North America, decimated the Native population and have occupied their nation(s) for 500 years. (Some) native Americans may find it interesting that Americans are concerned about the issue of occupation or the accusation of genocide.
I agree that many natives will find the hypocrisy interesting - given that US/Canada are settler-colonial countries as well.
But fixing that hypocrisy will be raising our voices about colonization louder here, not getting quieter about Israel :)
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If you actually cared about "Gazan" civilians you would be demanding that Hamas stop using them as shields and demand that Hamas publicly renounce their stated goal of eradicating Jews. Until then every death of a "Gazan" civilian is on the head of Hamas. People seem to really hate the fact that Jews won't just take but any more. It didn't seem to work out to well for them the last time they did.
How terribly convenient. Blame everyone except the person pulling the trigger. You wouldn't accept this as an excuse from Hamas, yet you genuinely think it's absolutely fine to kill civilians if they're being "used as human shields". And by "being used as human shields" you basically just mean "living in a city that happens to have Hamas in it".

So much for your pretence of caring about civilians. You just admitted you don't.

Also, you may want to consider what the purpose of "protest" is. Tell me: what can we do about Hamas? How would our demands work on them, exactly? Terrorists tend not to be particularly receptive to international political pressure from protesters. Protesting your own government funding war crimes, on the other hand, is actually a thing people can do.

Meanwhile, you know who really ISN'T helping the human shields? The IDF, who are shooting them. But you relieve them of any culpability whatsoever, for some reason. Odd, that.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm not advocating limiting free speech. I'm just pointing out that every side has its share of extremists.

I understand that that's a peaceful, diplomatic sentiment. But I think it's not true and it soft pedals the situation. I do not believe peace can be achieved if we start with bad premises. We need to take Jihadis at their word.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I agree that many natives will find the hypocrisy interesting - given that US/Canada are settler-colonial countries as well.
But fixing that hypocrisy will be raising our voices about colonization louder here, not getting quieter about Israel :)
Who on the planet is not living on stolen land?
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
How terribly convenient. Blame everyone except the person pulling the trigger. You wouldn't accept this as an excuse from Hamas, yet you genuinely think it's absolutely fine to kill civilians if they're being "used as human shields". And by "being used as human shields" you basically just mean "living in a city that happens to have Hamas in it".

So much for your pretence of caring about civilians. You just admitted you don't.

Also, you may want to consider what the purpose of "protest" is. Tell me: what can we do about Hamas? How would our demands work on them, exactly? Terrorists tend not to be particularly receptive to international political pressure from protesters. Protesting your own government funding war crimes, on the other hand, is actually a thing people can do.

Meanwhile, you know who really ISN'T helping the human shields? The IDF, who are shooting them. But you relieve them of any culpability whatsoever, for some reason. Odd, that.
Tell.me the number of the post where I stated "it's absolutely fine to kill civilians". Until you do that I can't take anything you say seriously. Just give me the post #
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Native Americans are like, oh, how adorable, they are concerned about occupation and genocides!
Are you arguing that one genocide justifies later ones?
But I don't think Amerindians share you humous take
on how they feel about mass murder of Palestinians.
 
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