Students Are Pushing Back Against Gender Ideology In Their Schools

[Shaul]

You've been shown how many times that doesn't apply to some people? How much longer do we have to keeo saying some people, because Nature can be messy, fall outside of that?

And yet the NIH doesn't agree with you. What is "messy" is the thinking of those that can't tell the chromosomal difference between a male and a female.

 

[Copernicus]

And yet the NIH doesn't agree with you. What is "messy" is the thinking of those that can't tell the chromosomal difference between a male and a female.

The NIH doesn't agree with you in that they treat transgender individuals quite seriously, and they are aware of the unfair discrimination against them, although they quite carefully do not mention the politics surrounding that discrimination.

See:

Transgender Associations and Possible Etiology: A Literature Review​

Genetics

Likewise, a genetic association has been proposed. Heritability of GD is suggested by evidence that has shown the familiality of transsexualism among non-twin siblings, and an increased concordance for transsexualism in monozygotic as compared with dizygotic same-sex twins [1]. In addition, research supports CYP17 as a candidate gene for female-to-male transsexualism and shows that loss of a female-specific CYP17 T-34C allele distribution pattern is linked with female-to-male transsexualism [39].

Conclusions​

The literature on transgender people during the last decade provides a framework for the associations and comorbidities associated with transgender or GD. The research draws links between transgender people and changes in prenatal neuroanatomy. There is an association with psychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, and ASD. Transsexualism is linked to childhood maltreatment and adversities. Evidence also leads some to speculate that there are genetic predispositions. Furthermore, a working hypothesis exists with regards to possible association of endocrine disrupting chemicals and transgender identity or other gender-related issues. The evidence until today shows that transsexualism has a complex biopsychosocial etiology. There is a need for additional research to explore the myths and mysteries behind transgender identity to improve the understanding among clinicians, social activists and policy makers leading to better transgender health.

 

[Kfox]

The NIH doesn't agree with you in that they treat transgender individuals quite seriously, and they are aware of the unfair discrimination against them, although they quite carefully do not mention the politics surrounding that discrimination.

What he said had nothing to do with discrimination against transgender individuals.

 

[Kfox]

The thing about definitions is that they are only intended as succinct heuristic statements that serve as a clue to a pattern of usage in a speech community. They aren't the same as word meanings, and they often tend to focus on distinctive aspects of a concept that are unique to the word sense being identified. Meanings themselves are a vast web of associations that are ultimately grounded in the way our bodies interact with physical reality. That is, they depend on filtering through the senses (touch, sight, smell, taste, hearing). You can't fully define a meaning, since it is a kind of network of associations that are more or less central to the concept. Any definition of a human being is just going to identify a piece of the whole, not the whole meaning itself.

What I'm trying to say here is that there is no perfect definition of any physical object, because the meaning is comprised of many different properties. Generally speaking, birds can fly, but there are a number of flightless bird species. Swans tend to be white, but there are also black swans. Different language systems will tend to parse the same reality in slightly different ways, depending on how speakers tend to interact with their environments. If one never sees a black swan, then whiteness can become a distinctive property for defining swans.

My point was, when someone says humans have 2 eyes, they aren't suggesting those with injuries and handicaps of only 1 eye aren't human, they are saying it is normal for ALL humans to have 2 eyes, and if someone does not have 2, there is something wrong with that person.

 

[We Never Know]

The NIH doesn't agree with you in that they treat transgender individuals quite seriously, and they are aware of the unfair discrimination against them, although they quite carefully do not mention the politics surrounding that discrimination.

See:

Transgender Associations and Possible Etiology: A Literature Review​

What's your take on this(see bold) from the conclusions?

Conclusions​

"The literature on transgender people during the last decade provides a framework for the associations and comorbidities associated with transgender or GD. The research draws links between transgender people and changes in prenatal neuroanatomy. There is an association with psychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, and ASD. Transsexualism is linked to childhood maltreatment and adversities. Evidence also leads some to speculate that there are genetic predispositions. Furthermore, a working hypothesis exists with regards to possible association of endocrine disrupting chemicals and transgender identity or other gender-related issues. The evidence until today shows that transsexualism has a complex biopsychosocial etiology. There is a need for additional research to explore the myths and mysteries behind transgender identity to improve the understanding among clinicians, social activists and policy makers leading to better transgender health."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is nonsense. My definition aligns with that of the NIH. Self serving definitions from the "trans industry" are piffle.

Your cherry picked definition excludes all variants. And I very much doubt the authors would support you in your desires and wants to misgender those of a chromosomal variance and intersexed individuals.

And yet the NIH doesn't agree with you. What is "messy" is the thinking of those that can't tell the chromosomal difference between a male and a female.

NIH doesn't agree with your cherry picking and over simplifying things, and they certainly don't support your Sovietesque use of science to justify being a jerk.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The research draws links between transgender people and changes in prenatal neuroanatomy. There is an association with psychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, and ASD.

Nothing new. At least one clinician goes as far to screen for gender dysphoria if ASD is present and vice versa. And psychiatric disorders is hella vague.
And because this is all new info to you so you know if a patient presents with psychotic symptoms and diagnosis then there is a more careful examination and screening of things to rule out if such feelings are a dellusion of that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problem with your description is that it gives a false impression.
To say Dogs typically have tails, is an accurate description because there are several breeds of dogs that don’t have tails! There is nothing wrong with them, they just don’t have tails. But to say dogs typically have 4 legs, that would give the impression that there might be a few breeds of dogs that have 5 legs, or 3 legs which would be a false impression. Any dog with anything other than 4 legs is the result of something gone wrong with that dog sometime during his life.
To say humans typically have 2 eyes gives the impression there might be some race of people who are born with anything other than 2 eyes which is not true. This would be giving a false impression because any human with anything less other than 2 eyes means something is very wrong with them

Wow, you read paragraphs of pork pies into that one, Scoob. Amd all just to actually argue against your initial claim amd agree with mine but present it in a way to try to spin all that around.
No, dogs generally have four legs. But not all dogs which is why they generally have four legs but aren't defined as definitely having four legs. I've known many three legged dogs and I'm sure sime have been born with a fifth.
The rest of all that you wrote, as thr saying goes "you're trippin.'"

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So if we exclude intersex, how would biological sex be different if it were binary rather than bimodal?

Firstly, why would you deliberately exclude intersex people? They do exist. That's like saying "if we exclude the range of all possible days that aren't weekends, then all days are either Saturdays or Sundays". We shouldn't exclude them; they are a part of the range of possible sexes, and extant proof that sex is bimodal.

Secondly, because the traits that denote one biological gender or another are more complex than "either/or". There are men who show distinctly fewer biologically male traits than other men, and so on. Biology is complicated. It's not as simple as being one or the other, because both categories of sex (just like literally all biological classifications) have a range of variables.

 

[Copernicus]

My point was, when someone says humans have 2 eyes, they aren't suggesting those with injuries and handicaps of only 1 eye aren't human, they are saying it is normal for ALL humans to have 2 eyes, and if someone does not have 2, there is something wrong with that person.

When someone says that humans have two eyes, they are just saying that it is usually the case that humans have two eyes. Everyone knows that people can lose their eyes or most other body parts without dying. And the question here isn't one of wrongness but of how such differences in individuals should be treated in terms of social policy. Transgender individuals are certainly different from the norm, but how should they be treated in terms of their difference? Denied access to bathrooms that fit their gender identification? Why? Denied life-sustaining medical treatment? Why? Exposed to bullying and humiliation or protected from it? After all, they should have the same treatment that would be given to others with special differences from the norm.

What's your take on this(see bold) from the conclusions?

Conclusions​

"The literature on transgender people during the last decade provides a framework for the associations and comorbidities associated with transgender or GD. The research draws links between transgender people and changes in prenatal neuroanatomy. There is an association with psychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, and ASD. Transsexualism is linked to childhood maltreatment and adversities. Evidence also leads some to speculate that there are genetic predispositions. Furthermore, a working hypothesis exists with regards to possible association of endocrine disrupting chemicals and transgender identity or other gender-related issues. The evidence until today shows that transsexualism has a complex biopsychosocial etiology. There is a need for additional research to explore the myths and mysteries behind transgender identity to improve the understanding among clinicians, social activists and policy makers leading to better transgender health."

My take is that everyone is an individual with unique problems. Those correlations need to be studied further. Transgender people certainly ought to have access to psychiatric and medical care that is done in private consultation with qualified medical professionals, not state and federal legislators who have their own ideas about how to treat their condition and use those ideas to promote their chances of being reelected.

 

[Kfox]

Wow, you read paragraphs of pork pies into that one, Scoob. Amd all just to actually argue against your initial claim amd agree with mine but present it in a way to try to spin all that around.
No, dogs generally have four legs. But not all dogs which is why they generally have four legs but aren't defined as definitely having four legs. I've known many three legged dogs and I'm sure sime have been born with a fifth.
The rest of all that you wrote, as thr saying goes "you're trippin.'"

Dogs with anything other than 4 legs are deformed. How about this; dogs have 4 legs unless they are deformed. Good enough?

 

[Kfox]

Firstly, why would you deliberately exclude intersex people? They do exist. That's like saying "if we exclude the range of all possible days that aren't weekends, then all days are either Saturdays or Sundays". We shouldn't exclude them; they are a part of the range of possible sexes, and extant proof that sex is bimodal.

If the existence of intersex is the only reason gender is not binary, then anybody who is not intersex has no reason to proclaim they are non binary.

Secondly, because the traits that denote one biological gender or another are more complex than "either/or". There are men who show distinctly fewer biologically male traits than other men, and so on. Biology is complicated. It's not as simple as being one or the other, because both categories of sex (just like literally all biological classifications) have a range of variables.

I disagree; it is simple. If you have a Y sex chromosome, you are male. Most humans have 2 sex chromosomes females have XX males have XY. Some people have a deformity of having more than 2 (XXY, XYX etc) but that is a deformity; as long as you have the Y you are a male.

 

[Revoltingest]

If the existence of intersex is the only reason gender is not binary, then anybody who is not intersex has no reason to proclaim they are non binary.

What if the gender of one's brain doesn't match the plumbing?
This isn't an "intersex" condition, but it appears to be a real condition.

 

[metis]

Sex is biology, ...

As are "penis". "vagina", and "hormones", and it's the latter that mostly drives sexual attraction, and it also helps to define sexual identity.

 

[Kfox]

Transgender individuals are certainly different from the norm, but how should they be treated in terms of their difference?

Treated the same as anyone else; no special treatments

Denied access to bathrooms that fit their gender identification? Why?

Bathrooms are based on your biology, not gender.

Denied life-sustaining medical treatment? Why?

Nobody should be denied medical treatment, and nobody is arguing against this

Exposed to bullying and humiliation or protected from it? After all, they should have the same treatment that would be given to others with special differences from the norm.

Nobody should be bullied, and nobody is arguing for this

 

[Revoltingest]

Bathrooms are based on your biology, not gender.

Which biology....
Assigned at birth?
During transition to a different sex?
After transition?
Sex that differs from one's gender presentation?

It looks far more complicated to me
than the singular word, "biology".
I argue that bathroom access should
be based upon that which causes the
least turmoil for everyone using it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If the existence of intersex is the only reason gender is not binary,

I didn't say it was the "only" reason. Please don't put words in my mouth.

then anybody who is not intersex has no reason to proclaim they are non binary.

Nope. Because those people are referring to gender, not sex. Again, you're confusing the two. We're talking ONLY about biological sex, here. A person can be non-binary regardless of their biological sex.

I disagree; it is simple. If you have a Y sex chromosome, you are male. Most humans have 2 sex chromosomes females have XX males have XY. Some people have a deformity of having more than 2 (XXY, XYX etc) but that is a deformity; as long as you have the Y you are a male.

I can't have a reasonable debate with you if you're just going to ignore reality, and the overwhelming consensus of biologists, and assert that something that is demonstrably very complex is actually very simple. I can't really help you if you're determined to stick to an elementary school understanding of biology rather than being willing to consider that it may be just a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

That's a lot of sophistry...

It's not. It's how we generally manage things as social creatures attempting to be objective scientists.

... just to support people defining gender so they can cut off teats and do genital mutilations.

You believe that pronouns are part of an agenda to increase surgeries?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Good point. In that case, rather than trying to figure out if Linda's gender pronouns are she, he, xi, ze, ci or the countless other pronouns people use; I would use Linda's biological pronoun which is according to her biology, not gender. IOW if Linda is a biological female I will use the pronoun she, if a biological male; the pronoun he.

Our discussion is based on how you would feel if people were purposely using different pronouns to refer to you. Your counter was that you wouldn't know. The example I gave was to demonstrate that in conversion, you do hear the gendered language people use for you.

 

[SkepticThinker]

In all my education, including biology, not once did I see something like a woman with AIS being referred to as a man.

Me neither.