I disagree. Other than his thoughts, a biological male who identifies as a woman is no different than a biological male who identifies as a man
What else is there to identity?
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Students Are Pushing Back Against Gender Ideology In Their Schools
- Thread starter We Never Know
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Not just me, but a lot of other people who think like me. And these people elect government leaders who enact laws that align with their personal beliefs. Just like there are other states who elect government leaders who enact laws that align with your and others who think like you, personal beliefs.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Identification is still an objective difference.
Lots of things. People identify with a myriad of things for a myriad of reasons. Humans are complicated.
So you are saying the wording of the Law would be objective, but the enforcement of the law would be subjective. Objective on paper, subjective in reality.
And you think such a law would be a good law?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
The gaslighting in these discussions is genuinely gargantuan.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
See, I am starting to notice a trend in the anti-trans crowd in this forum (with some exceptions, to be fair). What is it with anti-trans arguments and the use of random, completely inapplicable buzzphrases instead of arguments?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Part of the problem is we are speaking different languages. (I'm not meaning English here.) We are working from completely different root assumptions about reality.
Sadly, life is calling and I must away... (If you are game I'd like to explore this a bit later.)
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Correct. Your assumption is that reality is what you want it to be. My assumption is that reality is what it is, which is how I understand that personal categories and classifications don't really exist outside of our independent understanding of them.
Always!
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
CNN posted an interesting educational piece on the real issue driving this debate, which is not precisely "gender identity" but the state of mind called "gender dysphoria". Only about .1% of the US population has sought gender-affirming treatment at clinics. Gender dysphoria is unusual, but it is only treated as a mental illness when it causes such distress that the individual loses functionality. That's usually why they seek treatment. It becomes a need to treat serious symptoms, rather than just some vague desire created by imaginary "woke" propaganda aimed at promoting gender changes.
Gender assignment takes place at birth, and that is what is operationally defined as "biological sex". So when legislators seek to discriminate against those who suffer from gender dysphoria, they often focus on regulating behavior and medical treatment that deviates from birth assignment. This can sometimes be expressed as their "objective" sex or gender, but it is really a rejection of the idea that gender recognized at birth can be called into question.
See:
Also, to get a better idea of the way in which the Republican campaign against gender-affirming care is being carried out, see this article on Governor Youngkin's proposals for changes in Virginia policies on treatment of minors suffering from gender dysphoria in public schools. Basically, he proposes to restrict all children and teenagers to use facilities and getting care based only on birth gender, unless federal laws forbid it. His proposal does allow parents to "opt out" of the restrictions, if they are willing to acknowledge their child's need and let everyone know that the child is being made an exception.
See:
Gender assignment takes place at birth, and that is what is operationally defined as "biological sex". So when legislators seek to discriminate against those who suffer from gender dysphoria, they often focus on regulating behavior and medical treatment that deviates from birth assignment. This can sometimes be expressed as their "objective" sex or gender, but it is really a rejection of the idea that gender recognized at birth can be called into question.
See:
Is gender dysphoria a mental disorder? Here’s what you should know
Also, to get a better idea of the way in which the Republican campaign against gender-affirming care is being carried out, see this article on Governor Youngkin's proposals for changes in Virginia policies on treatment of minors suffering from gender dysphoria in public schools. Basically, he proposes to restrict all children and teenagers to use facilities and getting care based only on birth gender, unless federal laws forbid it. His proposal does allow parents to "opt out" of the restrictions, if they are willing to acknowledge their child's need and let everyone know that the child is being made an exception.
See:
Virginia finalizes guidance on transgender students, including rolling back some accommodations
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Do you, at least, understand how incredibly arrogant your statement sounds?
I do not pretend to have the answers. What disturbs me is supporters of Gender Ideology collectively seem to have lost their minds. You folks have escalated the conversation well beyond the point of easy assimilation, due to an endless barrage of new terms (and the endless list of supposed gender identities), expanded definitions of common terms and a decidedly strong effort to frame conversations in a way that some might seem as quite disingenuous to folks not in the thrall of this new way of looking at the world.
This is confusing to intelligent adults and yet this "information" is being shovelled wholesale down the throats of kids in school and has been for many years already. Is it any wonder there is an explosion in cases being reported? Proponets explain this MASSIVE surge as simply people finally feeling free expressing themselves and that this surge is organic. Others counter that something quite different is occurring.
I have no doubt some people are expressing themselves due to the lid coming off such exploration in recent years. "You be you!" has been in vogue now for some time. However, there is also the realiity that being "Cis Het" is not considered cool any more, nor has it been for quite awhile. "CIS" Kids are not stupid and see that LGBTetc kids are geting attention and support. What better way for a "CIS" kid to get through this crazed enviorment we are in than to say they are "Gender fluid", "gender non-conforming" or "non-binary". That way they get some Intersectional Oppression points. Given that the entry into this category is self-identification who is to say that some "CIS" kid is NOT "non-binary" and yet, it's merely a coping tactic. Add to this that a person does not have to do ANYTHING after declaring they are whatever special gender they claim.
Serious question regarding NEO-pronouns. Are they are ruse? People simply cannot be serious about Catgender/clowngender/Cakegender etc, but even if they are, why on earth would I be supportive of such seeming nonesense? Part of what makes me leery here, is that in recovery, when I am speaking with people I am extremely careful not to support their delusional thinking. I have been trained to see such support as ultimately quite harmful because it deflects people from the issues right in front of them. Is that what this is? A defelection? Hmmm.
No doubt everything I have said is wrong. I'll happily await your (or anyone elses) response.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Okay, I am going to use methodological naturalism and include cause and effect in biology.
So first a simple example from zoo-plankton
Well, I understand where you are coming from and you have a point.
But the problem is complex, because there are 3 positions. Overdoing it, denying it and figure out how much is in effect the pendulem swinging in the oppositve from surpressed to overdone.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Oh yes, very much so. It also just so happens to be true, I believe.
To borrow your vernacular:
Do you, at least, understand how incredibly arrogant your statement sounds?
Don't blame us just because you're losing the debate. I am making a concerted effort to explain and expand upon my position with you. There really is no need for these theatrical histrionics.
No, it isn't. It's confusing to people determined NOT to understand it, but to people making a genuine effort to understand it, it's actually quite simple.
How do I know this?
Because I was not always pro-trans. I became pro-trans through exposure to broader views, life experience and a little bit of education. It really isn't that difficult, and while I understand it is definitely MORE difficult for some than others, I also know from personal experience that the only thing needed is a little exposure and a little open-mindedness. Perhaps an internet debate forum isn't the best source of this, charged as they are, but I do genuinely think that being unable to understand the issues around trans people is largely what gamers might call "a skill issue". The good news is, with just a bit of work, you can get those skills!
Oh yeah? Got any specific information about what is being "shovelled wholesale" down kids throats? I'd be interested to know what they're being taught.
Not really. Exposure generates this kind of reaction. It's expected.
I haven't seen too many takes like that. Most of the takes I have come across are that it MAY be a little over what we would expect, but that it is expected to settle over time.
Yes. And this "something quite different" seems to range from people reporting being trans because they think it's "trendy", all the way to it being the result of a secret cabal of paedophiles grooming and sexualising children. Alarmingly, I have heard much more of the latter than the former in political spaces.
Yay! Progress!
We'll groom you into becoming trans yet!
This seems a vague claim that can't possibly be supported. I mean, I'm cis-het and I'm the coolest person alive, so...
I would say any claim that kids see being gay as just "getting attention and support" are pretty absurd.
Well, that depends. Most kids are actually pretty scared to come out as NB or trans. Right now, there's no evidence to suggest kids coming out as NB or trans just to be seen as "cool" is, in any way, a serious problem. I understand that it's very easy to scaremonger about, and it particularly appeals to parents who may not want their child to be NB or trans, but it's not a fear based on any significant, real issue.
Because you're an adult human being capable of not caring what other people, genuine or not, believe they should be called?
I mean, seriously, why does it bother you? Why do you care? It does not affect you.
It's a good thing we have medical professionals handling this, then. And that we don't limit trans people's access to healthcare that might help avoid the above scenario. And that we teach children what these things mean so that they can make educated decisions or determinations about themselves with full knowledge of any consequences.
Those are all really good things that SOME PEOPLE seem really keen for kids not to have. Weird that.
Nah, not wrong. Misguided, perhaps. Baseless, in some places. But I don't believe your fears laid out here necessarily have their roots in any deep-seated, personal animosity in you. Rather, they are genuine fears that have been stoked beyond reasonable expectations by a largely right-wing propaganda and fear machine.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
That is a really good point and I thank you for your response. I suppose that is part of my caution here is that I fear that pendulum is going to snap back and when it does the folks that are promoting this wont know what hit them. Personally, I don't think it will be angry parents who kybosh this whole movement, but rather, it will be lawyers. Once the lawsuits start people are going to run for cover.
Patrick66
Member
That's being homophobic.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
But... I'm gay. (So, I get the Intersectional Oppression Point Pass.)
Patrick66
Member
Oh. Now I know why you are permitted to post here. Congratulations.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
C'mon, you could always identify as gay on RF.
All you have to do is say the words.As to the permitted line. Hmmm. @Debater Slayer (Just for clarity, DS.) As far as I am aware everyone posting on RF is making use of their priviledge to post. That is not a right and there is a rather important difference. Further to this I have a LONG history on RF as I joined in 2005 and am fairly adept at parsing the RF Rulebook. Likewise, after 29,186 posts I have to think that RF is also used to me (though it might take them a bit to get used to the new YmirGF.)
C'mon, you could always identify as gay on RF.
As to the permitted line. Hmmm. @Debater Slayer (Just for clarity, DS.) As far as I am aware everyone posting on RF is making use of their priviledge to post. That is not a right and there is a rather important difference. Further to this I have a LONG history on RF as I joined in 2005 and am fairly adept at parsing the rulebook. Likewise, after 29,186 posts I have to think that RF is also used to me (though it might take them a bit to get used to the new YmirGF.)
Yes, everyone can post as long as they abide by the forum rules. The fact that there are many long-term members with diametrically opposite viewpoints demonstrates this. Proper wording of one's views is one of the most important aspects of the rules.
@YmirGF is indeed an old-timer here, as are many members with similar and different views from his.
Okay; let;s stick with what's going on in the US today. If a million years ago some little island out there in Timbucktu had a different calendar than what we recognize today; I will grant you that.
Objective is based on facts, subjective is based on your thoughts. Whatever it is that you identify as, that is done via your thoughts; right?
No; I'm asking other than your thoughts, what else is involved in the act of identifying as something?