What does that mean? What does it mean to "look like a man"? What does it mean to "look like a woman"?
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Students Are Pushing Back Against Gender Ideology In Their Schools
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
Humans with the Y chromosome usually present themselves in a way that is consistent with the male sex. Those with both X chrosomes usually present themselves in a way that is consistent with the female sex.
You are not answering the question, you are just restating it. “Looks like a man”, ”appears like a man”, “presents like a man”.
But nevermind.
Well I find reactions are (usually) largely based on how one phrases inquiries.
If you phrase things a certain way, you can usually get away with asking some pretty in depth questions about a person. As long as it’s phrased in a non threatening or neutral kind of way.
That said, this can differ language to language and obviously culture to culture.
In “Western culture” we tend to be private about such things. But since English is a pretty “intense” language you could probably get away with a lot, just with careful but polite phrasing.
Growing up in the Indian community, the language we commonly used (Fijian Hindi) made for much more intense upfront inquiries. Perhaps due to the language not being as “flowery” but I’m not sure. Indeed my mother and I were often asked questions that you probably couldn’t do in the Western community without receiving a challenge to a duel lol
Found that kind of interesting myself.
What type of answer were you looking for?
Not to speak for another poster.
But I think they were looking for something a bit more specific and indeed “binary”
Objectively speaking
Okay, for example in Indian culture it is quite “normal” for a male to wear very vibrant and extravagant clothing, including various amounts of jewellery and gold laden clothing. Earrings, Necklaces, clothes laden with gold everywhere etc.
However, if this same person in the same clothing and appearance went out into a Western society, just casually, even wearing male wearing clothing and presenting as masculine in their own home culture, they still might be mistaken as “feminine” in the other. If you follow?
Basically, in the West these are cues that tell the observer that they are witnessing a person engaging in feminine or masculine behaviour and appearance. Even though that is actually pretty subjective and differs culture to culture
In other words, presentation is what others typically rely on to judge masculinity and femininity. Not strictly biology, even though the concepts overlap, obviously
In saying that though such concepts do largely differ culture to culture. We rely on them in everyday life, no doubt. But they don’t necessarily belie ones actual biology. Not necessarily anyway
They can give clues, but they’re not some objective standard by which we can measure everyone against. Regardless of cultural background or indeed biology. Humans are just diverse by nature, by biology even
And considering that international travel is prevalent, even after COVID, this is likely an everyday occurrence these days. So don’t try the “it doesn’t happen often in X place” with me. I grew up in the internet era with information and travel being largely unregulated for decades.
Basically what I’m trying to say is that femininity and masculinity rely heavily on cultural cues, rather than simply biological ones
I mean hell, pink started out as a strictly masculine color before changing to a feminine one in western societies
And that’s just a colour, mate!
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That's kind of what I said when I said a person who dress or presents the way males typically dress and present. But what if the person in your culture was poor and couldn't afford the extravagant jewelry, and gold laden clothing? Obviously he wouldn't be mistaken for a female; right? I think this person was looking for something objective that applies to all men, and I have no answer for that; all I have is what appears obvious to me. Apparently that wasn't good enough for them.
I think what they were pointing out (and again I don’t wish to speak for another, this is just my impression) is that you cited biology as this objective thing that is related thorough a person’s appearance. Something that belies their biological reality.
But appearances can be deceptive. And I don’t think that’s really a good objective reality to base something on.
It can obviously belie certain known biological features to the public.
Fair enough. But not always. Thus it is not an objective measurement by default
I’ve mistaken males for females and vice versa (mostly because I worked with the public for so long lol.)
Does a hairy chin signify masculinity?
Typically yes. In western culture (I don’t want to speak for others.)
Not always is this the case and indeed there are instances where a biological female may present as such. Hungover and didn’t shave maybe. I dunno
My point is that while we largely rely on visual features to tell us wether or not another is female or male, such features may or may not align with their biology. For a hundred and more reasons. Some of which are indeed biological in nature. A female can look more masculine for biological reasons. Indeed a male can look feminine for completely biological reasons. This is the reality of our human biology as dictated by genetic mutations. You can’t expect some clear cut format and for that to play out all the time. That’s just not how nature works in general
That’s just human nature
And indeed when judging whether or not who we’re talking to aligns more with masculine or feminine features outwardly does actually rely mostly on our own basic cultural cues. Not strictly biology.
Biology doesn’t give a damn. A woman can grow facial hair given the right biological circumstances. That’s just reality.
So we can’t always fall back on what we know or recognise as being signifiers of either “side” to tell us where the other person falls.
Female or male
In scientific jargon, both soft and hard, this identification is indeed specifically classified as “gender.” Since it doesn’t necessarily have to line up perfectly with the strict biological makeup of said individual. Just that fact alone qualifies it as distinct enough to have its own category, in scientific examination
Science freely acknowledges that there is a known spectrum in between the two “extremes.” Not just in terms of strict biological features but the social/cultural factors that one feels most comfortable with. This is just the reality of the human species. And given the amount of cultures out there, can you really blame folks?
Sorry, but that’s what all the science (both biology and sociology) nerds have deemed. Decades ago even.
Just the messenger lol
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And 99% of the time, a person’s biology is related to their appearance. IOW if you did a complete inspection of a person’s body, biological males will 99% of the time choose to style themselves according to what is fashionable to males in that culture; and the same for females.
But that is all we have to go on. To go around asking people who look like men if they are actually men or vise versa for women will likely get you a hostile reaction.
I’ve never claimed it to be an objective measure.
As have I; and I’ve pointed this out countless times to countless people. When you mistake someone for the wrong sex, you just apologize for your mistake and continue with your business. Unfortunately I often get different people asking the same questions over and over so I am forced to repeat the same answer
True! There are actually bearded ladies; but if a woman chooses to grow a beard, she is probably used to being mistaken for a male; I’ve made this case countless times also
True. But in real life situations, you have to do the best you can and go by appearances
Unfortunately the person I was responding to seemed to want a clear cut format that is supposed to play out all of the time; which does not exist as far as I know
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
You can keep repeating this over and over I guess, but you keep demonstrating at every turn that you are judging and addressing people based on their gender.
I don't know why you're so hung up on this particular part of it. You are making a judgment call about how to address a person. You said so yourself, you are deciding how to address a person based on how they present themselves to you, and how you perceive them.
What do you think? Do you think we need to check genitals, DNA and chromosomes before we can address this person?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Are they? How did you determine that number? How many people have you checked to make sure their biology matches their gender?
I just spent the weekend interacting with a fairly large group of women that have an excessive amount of facial and body hair, including beards and back hair, which is apparently much more common than you'd think, affecting about 5-10% of women.
These women aren't "choosing to grow beards." They have thick facial hair. They have terminal hair all over their bodies.
Which just goes to show that biology is not nearly as black and white as you seem to want it to be - it's much messier. Which is what I've been saying from the start.
For me, to judge someone is different than addressing someone.
Do you disagree? If not, what do you think the number is?
Do these women shave? Or do they allow the beards to grow.
How is choosing not to shave different from choosing to grow a beard? because to me it's all the same.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Okay, well I just explained exactly what I meant in this post.
Yes, I disagree. And I just explained why.
A mixture of both. Some are tired of shaving several times a day and have just decided to go natural.
Growing a beard is the natural state of things - just letting one's body do what it does naturally. It's not even really a choice, given that it's just how the body operates. Shaving one's facial hair is where the choice comes in. Like how I choose to shave my legs, which a lot of women and even some men do on occasion. My natural state is hairy legs.
Okay; I said when I meet someone, I address them according to how they appear to me, if they appear to be male, I address them as male; if they appear to be female, I address them as female. You obviously have a problem with this so how would you say I should determine the best way to address someone?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I don't have a problem with that, given that's how most people on the planet interact with each other.
The problem is that you think you're addressing their biological sex when in actuality you're addressing their gender. I think I've been pretty clear about this.
He/She are references to biological sex for all mammals; humans included.
But when you use them regarding humans based on appearance you are referring to their gender, not biology.
Let me repeat that, so you understand.
When you, specifically, the person I am replying to, when you use those terms regarding humans based on appearance you are refering to gender, not biology.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That is going by gender, not biology.
Oh; so you know better than I know what is going on inside of my head now? I don’t think so.
Gender is make-believe; biology is real. I go by what is real. With 100 different genders, I can’t look at somebody and tell if they are Aporagender, Bigender, or any of the countless other genders people dream up; maybe you can but I can’t. But I can look at them and tell with pretty good success if they are male of female.
Let me repeat so you understand, when I refer to somebody as he or she, I am referring to their biology; not their gender. I do this with all mammals be it my dog, a cat, or human
Wrong. Gender is make-believe; biology is real. I go by what is real. With 100 different genders, I can’t look at somebody and tell if they are Aporagender, Bigender, or any of the countless other genders people dream up; maybe you can but I can’t. But I can look at them and tell with pretty good success if they are male of female.
Again; when I refer to somebody as he or she, I am referring to their biology; not their gender. I do this with all mammals be it my dog, a cat, or human.