Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[ChristineES]

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

Considering the fact that so many people continue to believe in one of many God concepts proves that statement can be totally argued with.

 

[Sees]

Here, this discussion, it is all about the quality and nature of such authority. Any time people are talking about whether God/Gods exist they have to deal with specific concepts. The first one put back on the shelf are those which are illogical, self-contradicting, don't reflect our understanding of the world.

Atheists and agnostics don't necessarily have a problem with there being a God or authority....but don't see any God-concepts as making sense or reflecting man's perceptions of reality.

You can only submit to something that is real to you to begin with, makes itself known or revealed to you. A God who wants belief and submission and considers it of prime importance, but doesn't make it happen skillfully and effectively, doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Especially with the difficult omni qualities so associated.

I believe Gods exist but are not obsessed with our belief and*don't want submission, personally. Makes sense to me on every level.

The Christian version of All Loving God indeed poses a problem in explaining the evils that exist in this world. However, if you take some of the other attributes of God such as 'the Just', 'the Wise' then it is not irreconcilable anymore. Here is a good article that explains that in detail : A Response to The Problem of Evil

"[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving" (Al Qur'an 67:2)

But it is amazing how atheists who themselves are not going through such sufferings/tests are complaining about the sufferings where as people who had the biggest right to complain understand God much better. Listen to this guy's story as an example of what I am talking about ...[youtube]fA8bZR89L9E[/youtube]
The story of Robert Davila

Some people look at this world and realize there certainly is a God and others perceive it in exactly the opposite manner. It is all about our willingness to submit to a greater authority...
Peace.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Here, this discussion, it is all about the quality and nature of such authority. Any time people are talking about whether God/Gods exist they have to deal with specific concepts. The first one put back on the shelf are those which are illogical, self-contradicting, don't reflect our understanding of the world.

Atheists and agnostics don't necessarily have a problem with there being a God or authority....but don't see any God-concepts as making sense or reflecting man's perceptions of reality.

You can only submit to something that is real to you to begin with, makes itself known or revealed to you. A God who wants belief and submission and considers it of prime importance, but doesn't make it happen skillfully and effectively, doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Especially with the difficult omni qualities so associated.

I believe Gods exist but are not obsessed with our belief and*don't want submission, personally. Makes sense to me on every level.

Well said. I believe in many Gods, but I choose which ones I deem worthy of my reverence. I'm not interested in gods that want us to submit and adore them "just because". No, they have to show me that they're worthy of it. Why should I give my life up for a god and my life on earth doesn't get any better? Why should I punish myself and restrict myself for no benefit in return? No, thanks.

Then again, I don't view my relationship to my Gods as one of domination and submission. They're more like teachers and friends who invite you to join Them at their level of spiritual greatness.

 

[nazz]

You can only submit to something that is real to you to begin with, makes itself known or revealed to you. A God who wants belief and submission and considers it of prime importance, but doesn't make it happen skillfully and effectively, doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Especially with the difficult omni qualities so associated.

I believe Gods exist but are not obsessed with our belief and*don't want submission, personally. Makes sense to me on every level.

The god who is worth worshiping does not demand submission, I agree.

 

[nazz]

Well said. I believe in many Gods, but I choose which ones I deem worthy of my reverence. I'm not interested in gods that want us to submit and adore them "just because". No, they have to show me that they're worthy of it. Why should I give my life up for a god and my life on earth doesn't get any better? Why should I punish myself and restrict myself for no benefit in return? No, thanks.

Then again, I don't view my relationship to my Gods as one of domination and submission. They're more like teachers and friends who invite you to join Them at their level of spiritual greatness.

Yes, I agree. But as to your other questions I think there is great benefit even though it takes to see and understand it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I agree. But as to your other questions I think there is great benefit even though it takes to see and understand it.

I'm not giving up myself and placing unnecessary restrictions upon myself for anyone or anything. Not playing that game.

 

[nazz]

I'm not giving up myself and placing unnecessary restrictions upon myself for anyone or anything. Not playing that game.

It's not a matter of "necessary/unnecessary". It's a matter of what is ultimately better even for oneself.

 

[loverOfTruth]

What about all the babies and young children who die horrible deaths from disease, starvation, accident, murder, abuse, etc? They weren't alive long enough to come to faith in your god. What is the point of all this? Are you going tell a child going through things that it's "just a test"?! Your god seems to be extremely callous and uncaring about the extent of suffering that some people go through in life. You can say "but this life is just a test and there"s an afterlife that's more important" all you want, but the fact is that we're living here and now. We're not in some afterlife. This life is very real and the most important thing to us right now. You devalue it by saying that it's not that important and it's just a "test" and nothing more. How sad!

There's a misunderstanding about who's 'test' it is ... evil committed by sinners is a test for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan ...

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient" (Al Qur'an 2:155)

So when a child dies, it is a test for the parents ... and according to Islam everyone is born a Muslim and if they die as a children, they go straight to heaven - no questions asked.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's not a matter of "necessary/unnecessary". It's a matter of what is ultimately better even for oneself.

I'll decide what is good or not for myself, myself.

 

[nazz]

I'll decide what is good or not for myself, myself.

That's your prerogative of course. But do you think you are omniscient in that regard? Sometimes others can impart a higher wisdom and it pays to listen.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There's a misunderstanding about who's 'test' it is ... evil committed by sinners is a test for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan ...

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient" (Al Qur'an 2:155)

So when a child dies, it is a test for the parents ... and according to Islam everyone is born a Muslim and if they die as a children, they go straight to heaven - no questions asked.

Oh, so children who die are nothing but "tests" for the parents? That's it? Way to devalue their lives.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Well said. I believe in many Gods, but I choose which ones I deem worthy of my reverence. I'm not interested in gods that want us to submit and adore them "just because". No, they have to show me that they're worthy of it. Why should I give my life up for a god and my life on earth doesn't get any better? Why should I punish myself and restrict myself for no benefit in return? No, thanks.

Who said you don't get anything in return ?

You will be praying 5 times a day which will not only bring peace and tranquility in your life but discipline as well.
You will be giving a mandatory charity(2.5% of your savings) for the poor and if everyone in the world did that, we won't have any poor people left in the world.
You will not indulge in any sort of wasteful and useless act(alcohol, gambling etc.) which corrupts the mind and creates lots of social ill.
That's just a few to start with ... I can list many more....

Also, if you watch some of the videos from the Deen Show site which consists of videos of many many converts to Islam, you will notice one common and defining theme. That is all of them felt real inner peace after they accepted Islam. See it for yourslef :
The Deen Show

 

[loverOfTruth]

Oh, so children who die are nothing but "tests" for the parents? That's it? Way to devalue their lives.

Not every child is dying as a test for every parent ... you are twisting the concept here. When it happens, then it is a test for them to be patient and to have faith in God through difficult times. That's the only aspect we are discussing here. No one is devaluing anything.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who said you don't get anything in return ?

You will be praying 5 times a day which will not only bring peace and tranquility in your life but discipline as well.

I can meditate. I can go for a walk in the woods. For discipline, I can start working out, take up a sport, learn martial arts, etc.

You will be giving a mandatory charity(2.5% of your savings) for the poor and if everyone in the world did that, we won't have any poor people left in the world.

I don't need religious dictates to be a charitable person.

You will not indulge in any sort of wasteful and useless act(alcohol, gambling etc.) which corrupts the mind and creates lots of social ill.

I enjoy smoking, drinking and other recreational drugs.

That's just a few to start with ... I can list many more....

So far I'm not interested.

Also, if you watch some of the videos from the Deen Show site which consists of videos of many many converts to Islam, you will notice one common and defining theme. That is all of them felt real inner peace after they accepted Islam. See it for yourslef :
The Deen Show

I feel fine. Islam's moral teachings are very similar to Christianity's. So I know it will make me miserable. Been there, done that and dumped it. Feel all the better for it.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The god who is worth worshiping does not demand submission, I agree.

The only problem being - when you don't submit, you start coming up with whatever you want which are man made and not according to divine guidance.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I can meditate. I can go for a walk in the woods. For discipline, I can start working out, take up a sport, learn martial arts, etc.



I don't need religious dictates to be a charitable person.



I enjoy smoking, drinking and other recreational drugs.



So far I'm not interested.



I feel fine.

That is perfectly fine. I am not asking you to convert ;-) ... just answering your questions.

]Islam's moral teachings are very similar to Christianity's. So I know it will make me miserable.[/B] Been there, done that and dumped it. Feel all the better for it.

But that highlighted part above, you are quite wrong on ... you'd be surprised (if you spent some time studying).

 

[columbus]

There's a misunderstanding about who's 'test' it is ... evil committed by sinners is a test for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan ...

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient" (Al Qur'an 2:155)

So when a child dies, it is a test for the parents ... and according to Islam everyone is born a Muslim and if they die as a children, they go straight to heaven - no questions asked.

Following this logically, it would be rational to conclude that abortion is the ideal form of parenting. Depriving themselves of children, the parents are guaranteeing their progeny eternal bliss. I don't see how you could fault a parent for such selfless behavior.

Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Following this logically, it would be rational to conclude that abortion is the ideal form of parenting. Depriving themselves of children, the parents are guaranteeing their progeny eternal bliss. I don't see how you could fault a parent for such selfless behavior.

Tom

Good point.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Following this logically, it would be rational to conclude that abortion is the ideal form of parenting. Depriving themselves of children, the parents are guaranteeing their progeny eternal bliss. I don't see how you could fault a parent for such selfless behavior.

Tom

Then you could just kill everyone in the world. That way, you'll be the only sinner in Hell and everyone else rejoicing in paradise

You definitely need a lesson on 'purpose of life' ....

 

[ametist]

Following this logically, it would be rational to conclude that abortion is the ideal form of parenting. Depriving themselves of children, the parents are guaranteeing their progeny eternal bliss. I don't see how you could fault a parent for such selfless behavior.

Tom

Lol. What? Following that logically is impossible and would require a disturbance in the force. :-D