Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[Awkward Fingers]

*edit*

Why would an all powerful god, who's gift to humanity is his holy word, need that word to be translated?
Why would there be different versions of a perfect word?
Why would god prevent satan from one thing, changing a book, but allow him to corrupt people on a smaller scale, like you said he did to the greedy people in power?
Does god think it's ok if satan corrupts millions, as long as he does it one at a time? Is he just stopping satan from being lazy?

Side note.. not trying hard at all to find flaws in this...

 

[chinu]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

Actually the world we live in proves that God has equal love for all his creatures, rather than an unequal love.

The micro-organisms which causes smallpox and malaria are his children too, and he has to serve food for everybody turn by turn.

 

[BruceDLimber]

And why are some "tested" with more brutality than others?

That you'll have to ask God.

But I do note that the Christian scriptures state specifically [paraphrasing]: "To whom much is given, much is required!"

So it apparently works both ways.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[loverOfTruth]

I'm just pointing out the logical ramifications of your position. There are similar logical problems with pronouncements of other religious authorities. It is hardly unique to Islam.

Frankly, I find Islam one of the less irrational world religions. Nevertheless, you didn't address my post.

Tom

Ok, sorry about the sarcasm. But what you stated doesn't follow rational logic. Why ? Not every act which benefits someone is moral and justified. Take, cheating in an exam, for an example. Would it be ok to allow someone to cheat just because one will benefit from the outcome ? Of course not.

And here we are talking about something more serious - life. What would be the purpose of life on earth if you could take it at the very infancy ? If you listen to the Jeffrey Lang video I posted earlier in the thread, it does answer that question in depth. In summary, when a human being chooses to worship God and chooses good over evil, they reach a higher status than angels(who does not have the free will to choose to do bad).

 

[loverOfTruth]

No, they are. Both are homophobic (I'm not straight and I'm also transgender), both demand negative and restrictive behavioral modification, both have concepts of "sin" (I don't believe in any such thing as "sin"), both demand humility and submission thereby suffocating the individual Will, both are focused on the afterlife rather than this world, both are anti-"worldly pleasure", etc. I could go on.

Islam just goes a step further and says that smoking, drinking and other "vices" are "sins" whereas most of Christianity allows those things in moderation.

You are right as far as basic teachings goes ... that's the gist of religion anyway that there's a GOD who knows better than us what is right and what is wrong and you follow His command to do the right thing which is eventually for the betterment of the society. See what havoc(i.e.social ill) the 'worldly pleasures' are causing all around us. Ultimately, anything our Creator forbids(alcohol, gambling, adultery, pornography, homosexuality etc.) it is for our own benefit and the objective is to prevent harm, corruption and immorality in the society. It really doesn't take a genius to figure that out - we just need to read some studies done on the effect of all those actions in the society and/or studies on those who are involved in such acts and you'll know that.

However, there's a lot of difference in the nuanced details as far as why and how ? Take homosexuality for example. You can read the Islamic position here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3096665-post48.html

Peace.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Is Islam even relevant in a discussion about a loving god?

God of Wrath or God of Mercy ?
God’s Mercy surpasses His Wrath. As Murata and Chitick suggests in their book titled ‘The Vision of Islam’: “One of the ways in which the Koran refers to the fact that the names of beauty and mercy represents God’s true nature more accurately than the names of majesty and wrath is in the statement that God’s mercy embraces all things. ‘I strike with My chastisement whom I will, but My mercy embraces all things.(7:156)’. The Koran never suggests that God is wrathful toward all things. He is wrathful only toward those creatures who refuse to accept His nearness to them”[4]. Yet both are necessary, as they further state,
“Without fear, people become bold and do whatever they want, not worrying about the consequences. Without hope they shrivel and die”[4]. Finally, their analysis of the attributes of God point out that the ‘fear of God’ is essentially a component of the 'mercy of God', because “the only logical way to act when you fear God is to go toward him, since there is nowhere to run. Likewise, hope and love for God encourage people to go toward him. Every relationship with God encourages seeking out nearness with him”[4].

[Taken from : The Simple Message of GOD]

The Qur'an has more sadism in it than any other religious text I've ever read.

Then you have neither read the Qur'an nor the Bible. You would be surprised if I start quoting stuff from the Bible. However, I refrain from doing so except in cases where a Christian starts falsely accusing Islam.

A few examples, among many verses that glorify cruelty:

It also says : "None will [enter to] burn therein except the most wretched one. Who had denied and turned away. But the righteous one will avoid it -" (Al Qur'an 92:15-17)

Just like a mother would discipline her child with punishments and threats of consequences because she loves her child very much and she would like to see her child to be in the best of manners, our creator knows that human beings do forget and transgress their limits and they need to be constrained through punishments and deterrence.
Even scientific studies will tell you that performance increases with punishment. There was a study led by researchers from the Nottingham University's School of Psychology, published in the Journal of Neuroscience. They found that participants' performance increased systematically as the amount of punishment increased, suggesting that punishment acts as a performance enhancer in a way similar to the offer of reward. Help Page -- ScienceDaily

Peace.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, Satan/his demons have power and a huge influence on this world..it doesn't take much to see that. They can pretty much give power to whoever they want..which explains why the people near the 'top' are all usually greedy moral-less people..just how Satan wants them. Satan's influence isn't so subtle once you've been exposed to it..it's literally right in all our faces. It's so bad that I'd say probably 95% of 'Christian' churches are influenced by Satan in one way or another..and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's gift to us/his love is completely lost on most people. Cults are just one of many tools Satan uses to deceive..he doesn't care how he gets you to hell, he just doesn't want you saved.

What a sad and paranoid view of the world that is. I'm sorry for you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are right as far as basic teachings goes ... that's the gist of religion anyway that there's a GOD who knows better than us what is right and what is wrong and you follow His command to do the right thing which is eventually for the betterment of the society. See what havoc(i.e.social ill) the 'worldly pleasures' are causing all around us. Ultimately, anything our Creator forbids(alcohol, gambling, adultery, pornography, homosexuality etc.) it is for our own benefit and the objective is to prevent harm, corruption and immorality in the society. It really doesn't take a genius to figure that out - we just need to read some studies done on the effect of all those actions in the society and/or studies on those who are involved in such acts and you'll know that.

However, there's a lot of difference in the nuanced details as far as why and how ? Take homosexuality for example. You can read the Islamic position here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3096665-post48.html

Peace.

I am not interested in your bigoted, hateful and anti-human god/religion. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, porn or any of the other things. It's certainly not obvious that there's anything wrong with it. Why would I want to join a religion that hates me and wants me to live up to an impossible standard that I can never reach and that is not natural to me? That's just torture! No, just no.

Also, not all religion is as you describe. My religion certainly isn't like that.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Well, Satan/his demons have power and a huge influence on this world..it doesn't take much to see that. They can pretty much give power to whoever they want..which explains why the people near the 'top' are all usually greedy moral-less people..just how Satan wants them. Satan's influence isn't so subtle once you've been exposed to it..it's literally right in all our faces. It's so bad that I'd say probably 95% of 'Christian' churches are influenced by Satan in one way or another..and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's gift to us/his love is completely lost on most people. Cults are just one of many tools Satan uses to deceive..he doesn't care how he gets you to hell, he just doesn't want you saved.

Yahweh sent two bears to maul 42 children to death for making fun of a guys bald spot, and Satan gave a man and woman piece of fruit that gives them knowledge... which one is the bad guy again?

 

[loverOfTruth]

I am not interested in your bigoted, hateful and anti-human god/religion. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, porn or any of the other things. It's certainly not obvious that there's anything wrong with it. Why would I want to join a religion that hates me and wants me to live up to an impossible standard that I can never reach and that is not natural to me? That's just torture! No, just no.

Also, not all religion is as you describe. My religion certainly isn't like that.

Once again...I am not asking you to accept my way of life ... we are just exchanging information. However, it clearly shows that you are not interested in any more information than what you have set in your mind - you didn't even read the Islamic position and instead came up with a bunch of assumptions and baseless claims.

Islam doesn't condone adultery, alcohol, gambling, disobedience to parents, and so many other things that it consider as sin ... so do you think Islam is 'bigoted and hateful and anti-human' towards those who are involved in those sins. Why do you victimize yourself like that ? Homosexuality is no different than some of those major sins - primarily adultery. And adultery can be seen even among Muslims. But you don't seem to think that Islam is bigoted towards them.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Also, not all religion is as you describe. My religion certainly isn't like that.

Don't you just LOVE how people that have never actually studied Satanism, claim to know so much about it, lol.:sarcastic Methinks someone gets their "knowledge" about Satanism from watching too much "American Horror Story."

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Once again...I am not asking you to accept my way of life ... we are just exchanging information. However, it clearly shows that you are not interested in any more information than what you have set in your mind - you didn't even read the Islamic position and instead came up with a bunch of assumptions and baseless claims.

Islam doesn't condone adultery, alcohol, gambling, disobedience to parents, and so many other things that it consider as sin ... so do you think Islam is 'bigoted and hateful and anti-human' towards those who are involved in those sins. Why do you victimize yourself like that ? Homosexuality is no different than some of those major sins - primarily adultery. And adultery can be seen even among Muslims. But you don't seem to think that Islam is bigoted towards them.

Saying that homosexuality is a "sin" is a form of bigotry. None of the major medical, psychological and psychiatric organizations say there is anything wrong with being LGBT. They are natural variants of the human experience and there's nothing unhealthy about them. It is only certain religions which are based off of outdated writings from centuries ago who continue to say that there something wrong with being gay. That's just willful ignorance at this point.

I have accepted my sexual orientation. I was a devout Catholic before and I tortured myself, trying to repress my sexuality in order to follow that religion's rules. It's a horrible place to be in. Now I have freed myself from such harmful restraints.

I don't think that a religion that is so obsessed with proscribing human sexual behavior is moral. It just leads to people feeling guilt and shame over something that is so intrinsic to the human experience. Plus, it makes god out to be petty, as if the creator of the universe is so obsessed with the sexual behavior of a group of apes on a dust ball spinning at the far reaches of one galaxy out of many billions. It's just silly. Humans made those rules up, not any cosmic god.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't you just LOVE how people that have never actually studied Satanism, claim to know so much about it, lol.:sarcastic Methinks someone gets their "knowledge" about Satanism from watching too much "American Horror Story."

Yeah, I know. It's so sad. Even a quick trip to Wikipedia can help to disabuse them of their misconceptions. I've found more freedom, self-acceptance and positivity in Satanism than I have found in any other religion I've tried.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Saying that homosexuality is a "sin" is a form of bigotry. None of the major medical, psychological and psychiatric organizations say there is anything wrong with being LGBT. They are natural variants of the human experience and there's nothing unhealthy about them. It is only certain religions which are based off of outdated writings from centuries ago who continue to say that there something wrong with being gay. That's just willful ignorance at this point.

I have accepted my sexual orientation. I was a devout Catholic before and I tortured myself, trying to repress my sexuality in order to follow that religion's rules. It's a horrible place to be in. Now I have freed myself from such harmful restraints.

I don't think that a religion that is so obsessed with proscribing human sexual behavior is moral. It just leads to people feeling guilt and shame over something that is so intrinsic to the human experience. Plus, it makes god out to be petty, as if the creator of the universe is so obsessed with the sexual behavior of a group of apes on a dust ball spinning at the far reaches of one galaxy out of many billions. It's just silly. Humans made those rules up, not any cosmic god.

Or so they made you believe ... anyway its all good ...

"1. Say (O Muhammad): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshiping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."
Al Qur'an 109:1-6

Peace.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Or so they made you believe

It's reality and there's no reason to believe otherwise. All the people who disagree with the accepted finding of homosexuality being a natural and healthy variation of human sexuality have to back their views is archaic writings from ignorant cultures.

... anyway its all good ...

Not really. Not when LGBT people are suffering all over the globe due to the false teachings of certain religions.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Saying that homosexuality is a "sin" is a form of bigotry. None of the major medical, psychological and psychiatric organizations say there is anything wrong with being LGBT. They are natural variants of the human experience and there's nothing unhealthy about them.

By the way, the same can be said for sex outside of marriage(adultery). But no one claims 'bigotry' for that. It is just playing victim to promote ones views. And what's wrong with other forms of sexual attractions then - with children, animals, blood relatives etc.?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

By the way, the same can be said for sex outside of marriage(adultery).

Sure. There's nothing wrong with having sex outside of marriage. Marriage is just a socio-legal construct to regulate property, inheritance and sexual behavior. It's just a contract made by a couple and recognized by the state and/or their religion's authorities. You don't need to have a legal agreement in order to have sex.

I think you've gotten "fornication" mixed up with "adultery", though. "Fornication" is sex outside of marriage and "adultery" is cheating on a partner in a relationship. "Adultery" is wrong when it's a betrayal of trust. But that's a private matter to be handled by the people involved.

But no one claims 'bigotry' for that. It is just playing victim to promote ones views. And what's wrong with other forms of sexual attractions then - with children, animals, blood relatives etc.?

There's nothing wrong with those attractions. You can't choose what you're attracted to, so it's silly to say that this or that thought is "wrong". What matters is behavior/actions. Sex with children isn't a good thing because it's known to be harmful to the child and it's also very illegal. Sex with animals can go either way, same with incest. With the latter two, you'd have to be more specific and laws vary by locale.

 

[nazz]

I have accepted my sexual orientation. I was a devout Catholic before and I tortured myself, trying to repress my sexuality in order to follow that religion's rules. It's a horrible place to be in. Now I have freed myself from such harmful restraints.

The RCC needs to clean up its own backyard before pointing fingers at others. I watched Frontline's documentary "Secrets of the Vatican" last night and it was highly disturbing. A priest who had intercourse with his own son (sired while he was a priest), another who raped a little girl then gave her penance to do for her "sin" and then told her if she told anyone her parents would go to hell. The Vatican's response? Besides the cover-ups and transfers to different parishes, prohibiting those with a homosexual orientation from entering the priesthood as if there were a connection between the two! Well at least half the Curia is gay and Italian priests openly engage in gay sex parties. And that's not even getting into the financial improprieties of the Vatican bank, a whole other subject. Makes me sick.

 

[Sees]

By the way, the same can be said for sex outside of marriage(adultery). But no one claims 'bigotry' for that. It is just playing victim to promote ones views. And what's wrong with other forms of sexual attractions then - with children, animals, blood relatives etc.?

If the action doesn't abuse, harm, take advantage, oppress, violate, etc. other people then calling it bad, wrong, or sinful is arbitrary prejudice or some religious/cultural tabboo that won't apply to others.

Not everybody believes things are bad because someone else claimed their God said so.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

By the way, the same can be said for sex outside of marriage(adultery). But no one claims 'bigotry' for that. It is just playing victim to promote ones views. And what's wrong with other forms of sexual attractions then - with children, animals, blood relatives etc.?

Because, with children and animals, the other party is unable to consent, and sex with relatives can cause birth defects in their offspring.

Also... I don't even see why marriage is still even around nowadays anyway... It was invented by the ancient Greeks and Romans as a way for the state to force women to pop out more babies with men that they didn't even care about.