Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[Gjallarhorn]

I never quite saw a point in the Book of Job. It seems to be an appeal to blind faith, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I don't see how it can be taken as more literal than a fable.

It seems to be in line with the sacrifice of Isaac: God can do whatever he wants. Live with it.

...Kind of makes the Old Testament (and a bit of the New) rather Lovecraftian.

 

[suzy smith]

It seems to be in line with the sacrifice of Isaac: God can do whatever he wants. Live with it.

...Kind of makes the Old Testament (and a bit of the New) rather Lovecraftian.

Had to look up 'Lovecraftian' Yep, see your point.

 

[roger1440]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

I didn't know a loving God created smallpox. Fill me in please. Where are you getting this from?

 

[George-ananda]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

God/Brahman/Whatever-term is beyond our ability to conceptualize. The Christian concept I feel was not designed to answer all the modern logical questions thrown at it. I think before we confine the debate to the Christian concept vs. Atheism we need to also consider more sophisticated concepts.

In other concepts such as non-dual concepts (God and creation are not two separate things) it is all God. However at our average stage of development we see ourselves as separate entities that begin at birth and end at death so all the things you talk about don't make sense with a loving Christian God.

I view the universe as a great drama of God that ends in victory for all; Self-Realization that we are all God/One. In fact, there really was no 'we' just 'One'. A drama (even one with a happy ending) includes suffering and drama along the way. Problem of Evil proponents view a short act as an entire play.

 

[Quintessence]

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

Not even remotely. And I say this as someone who doesn't put much stock in classical monotheism. The limited perceptions of "the world" by some human - a map of the territory - is not the territory. Especially not when it's full of normative value judgements like this seems to be.

 

[nazz]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

Yes, as a Christian I can say that you are absolutely right!

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Diseases are not created by God....they are products of the environment.

God created the environment, yes? God is the ultimate cause of source of everything, yes? God is also all-knowing, yes? Then God is causally responsible for the existence of disease, natural disasters, and all forms of malady that can be inflicted upon something by the natural world.

God doesnt have to create diseases... we create them by mismanaging the environment and through unhygienic practices like bathing in our sewage.

Well, then God created a world such that diseases can be created by mismanaging the environment rather than one in which diseases CANNOT be so created. Why would he do that? Did he not know any better? Could he not avoid it?

***

OP- yes; the facts of existence are not compatible with certain conceptions of God- the existence of suffering/evil/natural evil is inconsistent with an all-powerful, all knowing, and all-loving God.

 

[nazz]

Diseases are not created by God....they are products of the environment. If we dont manage the environment well, things can get out of control.

think about what caused the 'black plague' for example.... it was an infestation of rats. How did there come to be such an infestation? The authorities killed all the cats and so the rats had no predator and overpopulated the cities and the fleas they carried sparked a plague.

God doesnt have to create diseases... we create them by mismanaging the environment and through unhygienic practices like bathing in our sewage.

Really, the world we see around us is what we get for being independent of God and trying to manage the earth he created.

But your deity created the micro-organisms that cause disease did he not?

 

[nazz]

It seems quite incredulous to me that Christians would claim that "god is love" when it's quite obvious this isn't the case. IMO, it's an ideal they'd like to be real, because, quite frankly, the world sucks, and it's probably a comforting thought to have that there's something out there, bigger than anything else, who's in control of everything, and ultimately loves us. Too bad it's not real.

I'm rather happy God is not in control of everything

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Not even remotely. And I say this as someone who doesn't put much stock in classical monotheism. The limited perceptions of "the world" by some human - a map of the territory - is not the territory. Especially not when it's full of normative value judgements like this seems to be.

I don't see how your point here is supposed to help. On a related note, "the map is not the territory" is far and away the most nauseatingly over-quoted phrase on this board. But in terms of this analogy, all your point here would allow us to say is that this particular map (God as all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, according to certain definitions) is not a good map. But then, that's basically what proponents of the PoE are saying; that God cannot be the way he is described, since this contradicts the facts of existence- in other words, "the map" is not an accurate model of "the territory".

 

[nazz]

I didn't know a loving God created smallpox. Fill me in please. Where are you getting this from?

Is there another creator besides your deity?

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, as a Christian I can say that you are absolutely right!

Nazz, as a Christian, can you give us a thumbnail version of your God concept.

 

[nazz]

Nazz, as a Christian, can you give us a thumbnail version of your God concept.

So complex I'm not sure a thumbnail would do it justice! But here are some things I mean when I use that term:

1. The Source of everything that exists

2. The First Expression of the Source which is the highest deity and called "The Father" and which was manifest in the Son, Christ Jesus, and is operative and imminent in the hearts of believers as the Holy Spirit

3. The entire Godhead including all the Aeonic beings which compose the Pleroma

4. The sum of all existent things which includes lesser deities such as the Archons (since all has its source in God ultimately)

 

[Twilight Hue]

think about what caused the 'black plague' for example.... it was an infestation of rats. How did there come to be such an infestation? The authorities killed all the cats and so the rats had no predator and overpopulated the cities and the fleas they carried sparked a plague.

Actually fleas carried the plague virus. Cats likely were carriers as well. Even humans themselves. Might not have stopped the plague but would have lessened it's scope if there were fewer rats among other rodents.

 

[George-ananda]

So complex I'm not sure a thumbnail would do it justice! But here are some things I mean when I use that term:

1. The Source of everything that exists

2. The First Expression of the Source which is the highest deity and called "The Father" and which was manifest in the Son, Christ Jesus, and is operative and imminent in the hearts of believers as the Holy Spirit

3. The entire Godhead including all the Aeonic beings which compose the Pleroma

4. The sum of all existent things which includes lesser deities such as the Archons (since all has its source in God ultimately)

Thank you, Nazz my friend. How/what made you come to these beliefs.

Is it called Gnosticism by some?

 

[nazz]

Thank you, Nazz my friend. How/what made you come to these beliefs.

Is it called Gnosticism by some?

Yes and by me also

It really came about by thinking deeply about questions posed by others. In the end my old way of believing simply made no sense and was indefensible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

More like it gives good reason to disbelieve in the omnibenevolent god of monotheism. Polytheism is one theistic option that solves this. I think there's many different Gods and they don't all get along or care for the welfare of living beings.

 

[Mycroft]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

It depends on your view of the world. Try saying 'The world we live in proves there is a loving god' to a starving African child. Or a chinese child working in a sweatshop. Or a family on the run in the Middle East from people who want to murder them for their religion. Or a homeless guy on the streets of New York. Or a Muslim cradling her dead child after an 'accidental' attack on their city by American Drones.

I think it's very easy to delude yourself that God is all loving and all caring when you're a Middle Class American.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

I think Christian theology has really been overlooked. Yes, at first glance it looks really unattractive, but honestly, I think the discipline we see from Yahweh to be very useful to protect us against what rather seems to be the Antichrist, and it becomes much clearer if you look at it from the perspective that Man is the Christ, that Man is the Chosen One.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

I've always considered Deity to be a neutral thing. It doesn't really love or hate us, and It's not really good or evil.