Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[Pegg]

God created the environment, yes? God is the ultimate cause of source of everything, yes? God is also all-knowing, yes? Then God is causally responsible for the existence of disease, natural disasters, and all forms of malady that can be inflicted upon something by the natural world.


Well, then God created a world such that diseases can be created by mismanaging the environment rather than one in which diseases CANNOT be so created. Why would he do that? Did he not know any better? Could he not avoid it?

***

OP- yes; the facts of existence are not compatible with certain conceptions of God- the existence of suffering/evil/natural evil is inconsistent with an all-powerful, all knowing, and all-loving God.

Its 'we' who do not know better.

He knows how these organisms develop and get out of control...we dont. We modify and mismanage the environment and things get out of control.

Why must we always blame God for our own mistakes? People want to be independent of God so they must take responsibility for these things themselves.

 

[Pegg]

But your deity created the micro-organisms that cause disease did he not?

and everything in its correct environment is harmless to us


Its when they get out of their correct environment that we have problems with them.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Its 'we' who do not know better.

He knows how these organisms develop and get out of control...we dont. We modify and mismanage the environment and things get out of control.

But you avoided my question. Why did he create a universe where the environment does this, if we mismanage it, in the first place? Was he unable to create one in which this did NOT occur? (also, it simply is not the case that disease, natural disaster, and the other sorts of evil that can befall someone simply through nature, are all the result of anything humans did)

Why must we always blame God for our own mistakes?

Because God is claimed to be all-powerful; as in, if he wanted to, he could create a world such that, no matter what we did, we would not have disease, suffering, evil, and so on. But he did not- so this begs the question of why not?

People want to be independent of God so they must take responsibility for these things themselves.

No, that's not what the problem is here. The problem is that, the way the world is is inconsistent with certain descriptions of God, just as a simple matter of logic.

 

[Pegg]

But you avoided my question. Why did he create a universe where the environment does this, if we mismanage it, in the first place? Was he unable to create one in which this did NOT occur? (also, it simply is not the case that disease, natural disaster, and the other sorts of evil that can befall someone simply through nature, are all the result of anything humans did)

all these organisms are necessary in some way or another....just because we dont know what they do or why they are here doesnt mean they are all without purpose.

Because God is claimed to be all-powerful; as in, if he wanted to, he could create a world such that, no matter what we did, we would not have disease, suffering, evil, and so on. But he did not- so this begs the question of why not?

He did create the world that way actually. But mankind turned away from that world and chose to do it their own way. What do you think the Garden of Eden was? It was a paradise free from all the things we experience today.

No, that's not what the problem is here. The problem is that, the way the world is is inconsistent with certain descriptions of God, just as a simple matter of logic.

the world is in our hands, not Gods. What you are seeing in the world is the nature of mankind and the cruel dictatorship of Satan the devil who rules this world.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

and everything in its correct environment is harmless to us.

Kind of like the Black Plague, right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

He did create the world that way actually. But mankind turned away from that world and chose to do it their own way. What do you think the Garden of Eden was? It was a paradise free from all the things we experience today.

There's no evidence that any such thing ever existed. The most educated theologians these days now explain away the historicity of the Garden and view it in more allegorical terms.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

What you are seeing in the world is the nature of mankind and the cruel dictatorship of Satan the devil who rules this world.

Whom God created in the first place and has the ability to destroy at any given time, yet chooses not to for some reason. I guess he enjoys watching people starve, kill each other, and get ravaged by diseases such as cancer. What a top-notch guy. :sarcastic

 

[Pegg]

There's no evidence that any such thing ever existed. The most educated theologians these days now explain away the historicity of the Garden and view it in more allegorical terms.

they've explained away the whole bible... their opinion means very little.

 

[Pegg]

Whom God created in the first place and has the ability to destroy at any given time, yet chooses not to for some reason. I guess he enjoys watching people starve, kill each other, and get ravaged by diseases such as cancer. What a top-notch guy. :sarcastic

the bible explains why these things are permitted... people arnt' listening.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

the bible explains why these things are permitted... people arnt' listening.

And, pray-tell, what reasons could possibly justify such horrible things? Care to explain?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

all these organisms are necessary in some way or another....just because we dont know what they do or why they are here doesnt mean they are all without purpose.

We aren't talking about "organisms"- is a genetic disorder "an organism"? A hurricane? In any case, such things are not "necessary" for an omnipotent being- if God could not have created the universe without them, he is not truly omnipotent.

He did create the world that way actually. But mankind turned away from that world and chose to do it their own way.

So human beings created natural disasters, genetic disorders, diseases, and all the sorts of maladies that exist in the natural world?

How'd we manage that? Space magic?

What do you think the Garden of Eden was?

A poetic and literary account of an idyllic past- a myth.

the world is in our hands, not Gods. What you are seeing in the world is the nature of mankind and the cruel dictatorship of Satan the devil who rules this world.

Then God is either ignorant of this state of affairs, impotent to stop it, or not benevolent enough to do anything about it. Welcome to the problem of evil, Pegg.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

they've explained away the whole bible... their opinion means very little.

No, they're just trying to bring the Bible more inline with reality as we know it and make their theology more sophisticated so that you don't have to claim absurdities in order to be a Christian. There is not one shred of evidence that there ever was a paradisiacal state on this planet. You are claiming such a thing as literal history, so you have to present some proof for that claim.

We also know that it is not possible that all of humanity descended from just one male and one female human. So there was no literal Adam and Eve.

 

[psychoslice]

We live in a world that all sorts of things happen, we label this as bad and that as good, but the thing is there is no such thing as bad or good, and as soon as we realize that we will be much happier, not blaming a god or whatever. We seem to blame everything everthing else these days but ourselves, we need to grow up and pull our finger out and take responsabelity.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Ultimately, when it comes to the existence of suffering, there are only 4 possibilities.
1.) God is willing to prevent suffering, but unable... which means he is not omnipotent.
2.) God is able to prevent suffering , but not willing to... which means he is not benevolent.
3.) God is neither willing nor able... which means he is neither omnipotent or benevolent.
4.) God does not exist.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Ultimately, when it comes to the existence of suffering, there are only 4 possibilities.
1.) God is willing to prevent suffering, but unable... which means he is not omnipotent.
2.) God is able to prevent suffering , but not willing to... which means he is not benevolent.
3.) God is neither willing nor able... which means he is neither omnipotent or benevolent.
4.) God does not exist.

5.) God in unaware of suffering... which means he is not omniscient.

Just to flesh it out a little more.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

5.) God in unaware of suffering... which means he is not omniscient.

Just to flesh it out a little more.

Very good point... thank you for pointing that out.

 

[nazz]

and everything in its correct environment is harmless to us


Its when they get out of their correct environment that we have problems with them.

For many of those organisms their correct environment IS a human being. They thrive in us.

 

[lunamoth]

I bumped into a Plymouth Brethren the other day. Now I am not singling out that particular religion but the conversation highlighted a problem I have always had about the God of the bible.
I asked him “why would a loving God create smallpox for example, or river blindness [Onchocerciasis] or Malaria” and so on. His answer was ‘to test mankind’ ?

Surely the world we see around us proves behind all doubt whatsoever that if there is an intelligent creator he is not the loving God that the Christians believe in?

Life is good.

Life requires 'imperfection.'

Life is still good.

 

[Penumbra]

Life is good.

Life requires 'imperfection.'

Life is still good.

The parasite Onchocerciasis was brought up in this thread. It's a nematode that is transmitted to the body via a bite from a fly, where it then sends nematodes throughout the body causing severe itching and inflammation, eventually leading to damage to skin and destruction of ocular tissue, leading to blindness.

It affects mostly sub-Saharan Africa, where people are already dealing with quite a few problems without the added burden of that a parasitic organism like that one.

Does life require that? Is it missing something without Onchocerciasis? Because I mean, the idea that life is good is sort of a relative and privileged one isn't it? I'm not sure that most blind people in sub-Saharan Africa would agree.

 

[lunamoth]

The parasite Onchocerciasis was brought up in this thread. It's a nematode that is transmitted to the body via a bite from a fly, where it then sends nematodes throughout the body causing severe itching and inflammation, eventually leading to damage to skin and destruction of ocular tissue, leading to blindness.

It affects mostly sub-Saharan Africa, where people are already dealing with quite a few problems without the added burden of that a parasitic organism like that one.

Does life require that? Is it missing something without Onchocerciasis? Because I mean, the idea that life is good is sort of a relative and privileged one isn't it? I'm not sure that most blind people in sub-Saharan Africa would agree.

Life does not require it. But is is part of life.

Is it better to not live?