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Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Wow, this thread has gotten so gloomy, negative, depressing, pessimistic, nihilistic, etc..
What is one positive aspect of being alive though (besides realising Brahman)? Only one thing is all I need.

I can't think of one good thing, but I can think of hundreds of bad things.

It's difficult to remain 'Pollyanna' in the face of all that. Where are all the 'human interest stories' gone?

How does one overcome all the troubles in the world to find their own degree of personal happiness and salvation apart from it?

Even Buddha said that the world is full of suffering and inequality and his answer was to just meditate and try and overcome/forget about it.

The whole of Buddhism is based on a negative world view...Hinduism too, to a degree (i.e everything is Maya).

It's easy to see how 'everything is Maya' when hate, greed, corruption, adharma is...but what about anything 'good'? if there is anything 'good'.

I want to try and find a positive thing...I really want to, but every time I try, I feel like the biggest hypocrite and ignoramus when I realise I am only kidding myself, by 'cold comforting' myself into a false sense of security, leading to even more delusion.

So, if yourself or anybody else has ideas on how to overcome this, I am all eyes. Thanks.

Good night, George.
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Wow, this thread has gotten so gloomy, negative, depressing, pessimistic, nihilistic, etc..

I was going to post another positive thinking post here but I don't think I could stomach hearing.....'tell that positive crap to some starving child with AIDs and flesh-eating viruses I never heard of allowed by some God who could only be evil if he did exist; which he obviously doesn't...blah, blah

Ok, time for me to put George-ananda to bed.

Umm... The title of the thread itself is "Surely the World we Live in Proves There is no [loving] God." I'm not really sure exactly what you were expecting.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its a thread RE the problem of evil, what did you expect, sunshine and puppy dogs?
Sometimes emotional arguments find their way into what could be a more detached debate about the issue itself.

There exists a set of claims, made by many, that a loving god exists. Along with that claim are generally some details depending on the religion, like a description of how personal or impersonal it is, being anywhere from highly anthropomorphized to being described as almost lacking consciousness and being synonymous or nearly synonymous with the physical universe, or a clarification of what "love" means, generally revolving around caring for the well-being of conscious things rather than being sadistic to conscious things or entirely ignoring conscious things.

And then there exists discrepancies for that claim which are pointed out, like the existence of things that cause great suffering to conscious things that don't seem to result in any good and don't seem to need to exist. The people that then made that claim can try to answer these or not. It depends how robust and informed their claim is, I suppose.

To talk openly about not liking the seemingly gloomy arguments, is basically emotional appeal, a form of losing the debate or more specifically not coming up with answers in defense of the claim. And to assume that most of the people that are questioning this claim about a loving deity go around all day gloomy and thinking about death and suffering, would be missing the point of the discussion, where people are agreeing on a context about a specific claim and then discussing that claim, which requires making gloomy arguments and asking people how those things are resolved in their worldview.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
"The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

Life is what you make of it.
William Blake, I do believe.

However, I have tried to make life 'better for myself', but any direct involvement in my own personal affairs only ends up making the situation infy times worse for me and I cannot rely on help from anybody else, so where does that leave me? Where does that leave us?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How does one make life their 'own personal heaven?'

That is the answer I seek.
Being nice to people, treating animals well, spending some time in nature, meditating, getting regular exercise, eating healthy food, trying to make time for hobbies, trying to find a job that is enjoyable and stimulating, and being reasonably social and/or doing some charity work.

There are some things that can come along and crush all of that but assuming those things don't happen, that list probably improves one's chances.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
The Clod and the Pebble
BY WILLIAM BLAKE
"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite."
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
What is one positive aspect of being alive though (besides realising Brahman)? Only one thing is all I need.

I can't think of one good thing, but I can think of hundreds of bad things.

It's difficult to remain 'Pollyanna' in the face of all that. Where are all the 'human interest stories' gone?

How does one overcome all the troubles in the world to find their own degree of personal happiness and salvation apart from it?

Even Buddha said that the world is full of suffering and inequality and his answer was to just meditate and try and overcome/forget about it.

The whole of Buddhism is based on a negative world view...Hinduism too, to a degree (i.e everything is Maya).

It's easy to see how 'everything is Maya' when hate, greed, corruption, adharma is...but what about anything 'good'? if there is anything 'good'.

I want to try and find a positive thing...I really want to, but every time I try, I feel like the biggest hypocrite and ignoramus when I realise I am only kidding myself, by 'cold comforting' myself into a false sense of security, leading to even more delusion.

So, if yourself or anybody else has ideas on how to overcome this, I am all eyes. Thanks.

Good night, George.

Tons of positive, life-affirming worldviews, philosphies, religious traditions, etc. I can't think of a part of my daily life that sucks besides spending money :shrug: Some others just focus on assuring and comforting the weak, poor, etc. that the glass is empty but it will be better next life/afterlife. If more people focus on making their life and this world better - there will be much more happy people, most frequently happy.

Peace, tranquility, freedom, love, happiness, belonging....family, wholeness/health...jumping in a beautiful lake, watching a child run in a field, sharing good food, the newest, bestest action movie or moving piece of music.

Some people have very hard circumstances that require more effort and their relatively crappy lot in life might not every be fully overcome. Others are just conned into pessimism and living a wretched life by ancient fools.

A shift is coming soon I think.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
How does one make life their 'own personal heaven?'

That is the answer I seek.

Maybe you should consider looking outside of a religion that causes you to see this world as so horrible and something to be escaped.

There's so many things I can't stand about this world/realm but there's also lots of things I enjoy. I like music, reading, good art, astronomy photos, drinking beer, nice clothes and jewelry, a breezy overcast day, the ocean, my pets, etc. Remake your world into an image that suits you.
 
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lunamoth

Will to love
What beneficial thing requires the existence of Onchocerciasis?
Nothing requires it, but it is a consequence of the freedom of nature.

Or, once in a while, a child is born without any arms or legs. Wouldn't the universe be ever so slightly better if that didn't happen? Would we lose much from that change?
The universe would be better if we can find ways to prevent it from happening, or happening as much, or finding ways to help such afflicted people live better lives.

Bill Gates is currently using some of the resources of the world's largest charitable foundation to try to eradicate polio once and for all. Would eradicating polio prevent something beneficial? Should he stop?
I'd say he is making the world a better place and eradicating polio is a very good thing.

If a deity exists, but doesn't have any preference between humans and a microscopic parasite that bases its existence around finding hosts to breed and as a byproduct cause pain and blindness, then wouldn't that agree with the OP of the thread about there not being a loving god? Like, would that count as loving?
A loving God wants us to express his love in this world, as Bill Gates does, through feeding, healing, nurturing, sharing resources... The same forces that shaped the parasites shaped us. You don't get one without the other.

Who is we? I mean, some people don't think it's better to live, like the approximately 1 million people that kill themselves each year, or the countless others that live in a sort of quiet desperation. Suicide is a taboo for most cultures and religions that often comes with a price of cultural shame and threat of a negative afterlife, and life has a strong instinct for survival even when well-being isn't there anyway, so the existence of life doesn't necessarily mean that all of those people enjoy being alive. Like in world surveys of subjective happiness and life satisfaction (two related but different things), the places that report really bad numbers, like significant portions of the population rating their life as a 0/10, 1/10, 2/10, 3/10 or 4/10, aren't killing themselves in percentages anywhere close to the percentages of people reporting terrible scores. Slightly over 50% of people in sub-Saharan Africa report a 4 or less on a happiness scale out of 10. Less than 5% rate life as 8/10 or better. So they're just continuing to live with an F for happiness and life satisfaction, basically.
And that is an indictment on those of us who have resources that can help but don't. I agree there is suffering. So, would it be better for all those who suffer (or are unhappy or have low life satisfaction) to commit suicide? Or, is it better for them to have hope that things will improve for them and it is better that more people feel that they are called to help improve things for others who are worse off?

The theology of most religions describes the world in a negative way, as some answer to the problem of suffering. Much of Christian theology describes the world as a fallen and ruined place, with the reward and the real life for believers being in the afterlife. Much of Islam theology describes this life as a test, and in the afterlife believers get endless paradise and unbelievers get endless torture. Much of Buddhist, Hindu, and other Dharmic theology describes this life as a big illusion that we are trapped in through multiple lifetimes of reincarnation or rebirth, and that we should try escape from that cycle to put an end to suffering. It's generally only some of the smaller religions that actually suggest that this life is basically it, or good enough to be worth trying to maximize in and of itself without concern for another life.
The way I see these teachings is that those religions are describing the world as many experience it, and offering hope that the future will be better. I disagree with any that teach abandoning this world as unredeemable, and I don't think that is what Christianity is teaching. It is a twisting of the message to only focus on the afterlife. But, to those in desperate situations, belief in an afterlife also can offer comfort and hope.

That depends on which universe you're referring to. In a universe where some loving being is the most powerful force in existence, then it can make life better and lessen suffering by having created it differently. In a universe where there is no creating loving force, it's humans or nothing that can make life better and lessen suffering.
Or, it could be a universe where a loving being created a universe in which humans can make life better and lessen suffering.

There's often a cost though when we do things though because we're starting from a rather precarious position to begin with. Most of the happiest places in the world use more resources than are sustainable, which therefore makes them not a good model to try to replicate. Scientists can try to eradicate diseases that cause so much suffering, which could mean trying to eradicate something like a virus or bacteria, or could mean trying to eradicate nematodes or other multi-cellular life. Some of them don't seem to benefit the ecosystem in any way but others maybe do, so there's always a risk of tampering. Like, you wouldn't want to eradicate some nematode that causes pain and blindness for thousands of people, but then find out that through several steps that weren't previously seen, something awful like that needs to continue to exist for the food chain to stay in place, and so without it their regional food chain partially collapses and people starve.
I agree with all of this. Even our best intentions can turn to disaster. But, without trying, with caution and humility, we would be losing one of the best aspects of being human - our desire to help others and make the world better for all.

I don't think there's much that humanity can do about suffering in the wildlife since the predator/prey system is ubiquitous and has existed for eons, and there are things we can do about human suffering, and suffering caused by humans, but only to some degree. There are countless diseases to try to work through for a solution (which generally pays the cost of testing on other animals and then on humans), then there are multiple economic problems in various places to solve without destroying the environment when successful, then there's the human overpopulation problem, then there's spreading education to try to solve suffering caused by ignorance, then there are the various wars and ethnic violence and crime to try to reduce, then there are social injustices to try to fix like oppression of sexual or religious minorities in various areas, etc.
Yes, there are many sources of suffering, and we create a lot of it ourselves. I'm not sure where you are going with this because I think you would agree that the 'Bill Gates' of the world, everyone who tries to cure diesease and increase the well-being of other people, and at the same time take into account the preservation of our environment, are doing a good thing in trying.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Thanks for the suggestions. I am already doing charity work and I cannot find employment, nor can I find a hobby that interests me.

Yeah, I probably need anti-depressants until I have that 'life changing experience' and I won't need them anymore.

It would be great to be constantly medicated so my view of the world is amazing, no matter how false that view is...at least it's a means unto an end.

I know that the first step is not to watch the news, watch TV, read newspapers, forget the 'people' in the outside world and just concentrate on nature...trying to forget mankind's total destruction of it.

Like I said before, I got nothing that a few months in a commune wouldn't be able to fix.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

Life is what you make of it.

Though it's a nice thought, i think it supposes way too much power which isn't even barely true in many circumstances.

There's merit in approaching life with a mentality that you can change circumstances, improve conditions and get the best out of things, but i think it's selling a lot of people short to not recognize that some have little to no choice in the matter.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Though it's a nice thought, i think it supposes way too much power which isn't even barely true in many circumstances.

There's merit in approaching life with a mentality that you can change circumstances, improve conditions and get the best out of things, but i think it's selling a lot of people short to not recognize that some have little to no choice in the matter.

Well, of course there's always extreme exceptions to the rule. But if you're really at that point, you might as well kill yourself.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nothing requires it, but it is a consequence of the freedom of nature.

The universe would be better if we can find ways to prevent it from happening, or happening as much, or finding ways to help such afflicted people live better lives.

I'd say he is making the world a better place and eradicating polio is a very good thing.

A loving God wants us to express his love in this world, as Bill Gates does, through feeding, healing, nurturing, sharing resources... The same forces that shaped the parasites shaped us.
And humans can be criticized along the way whatever they do. Advanced medicines, surgeries, and techniques, only occurred in highly developed economies that passed through the industrial age and did and still are doing considerable environmental damage.

And a lot of advanced medical stuff ends up being tested on mice and then other animals. Does a loving god want humans to solve various forms of suffering even if it creates some suffering in the process? Does she support the philosophy that the ends justifying the means? Without animal testing, those various medicines and things have to be used, untested, on human patients. It's basically dealing with a rock and a hard place.

You don't get one without the other.
Well you could, with a loving and powerful god.

I mean, most Christians probably assume there isn't Onchocerciasis in their heaven. Heaven is where they get the good without the bad, meaning that somewhere along the line they believe that's possible.

And that is an indictment on those of us who have resources that can help but don't. I agree there is suffering. So, would it be better for all those who suffer (or are unhappy or have low life satisfaction) to commit suicide? Or, is it better for them to have hope that things will improve for them and it is better that more people feel that they are called to help improve things for others who are worse off?
I wouldn't want people to commit suicide. The point I was making is that quite a lot of people, especially in less economically developed areas, are reporting themselves an "F" on a happiness rating.

The way I see these teachings is that those religions are describing the world as many experience it, and offering hope that the future will be better. I disagree with any that teach abandoning this world as unredeemable, and I don't think that is what Christianity is teaching. It is a twisting of the message to only focus on the afterlife. But, to those in desperate situations, belief in an afterlife also can offer comfort and hope.
Christianity tends to have among the more specific answers to the problem of suffering, but by extension one of the most disproved ones. It centers around the concept of original sin, with the idea that the world was once perfect (which is not supported via biology, geology, or cosmology for the history of the universe, and is in fact quite discredited) and that it was humans that messed it up literally or metaphorically, brought original sin, and now need to be saved from it to restore perfection again. But all of that is basically wrong when compared to the actual scientifically-studied history of the planet and the universe.

Or, it could be a universe where a loving being created a universe in which humans can make life better and lessen suffering.
But see above, about what costs people have to pay to do that, and the nearly infinite number of things that have to be dealt with. Every disease, every impoverished area, the overpopulation that results, and then there's nothing we can do about the suffering of wildlife due to natural causes.

Some of the most horrible things happen without anyone predicting it, even if they did have the best intentions. When Europeans arrived in parts of the Americas, they didn't have the best intentions (rather bad ones actually), but even if they did, it wouldn't have affected the fact that the diseases they brought with them decimated the populations they encountered. It's sort of a harsh cosmic joke for isolated populations to meet each other for the first time and then one of them gets decimated by invisible disease before either side even developed germ theory yet. If we're being creative, I'm sure we can imagine a universe, especially if it were governed by some sort of loving force, where that kind of catastrophic nonsense doesn't have to occur.

I agree with all of this. Even our best intentions can turn to disaster. But, without trying, with caution and humility, we would be losing one of the best aspects of being human - our desire to help others and make the world better for all.

Yes, there are many sources of suffering, and we create a lot of it ourselves. I'm not sure where you are going with this because I think you would agree that the 'Bill Gates' of the world, everyone who tries to cure diesease and increase the well-being of other people, and at the same time take into account the preservation of our environment, are doing a good thing in trying.
I do agree with people like Bill Gates that do what they do. The more charitable aspects of humanity are on an endless quest to try to reduce the unlimited varieties of suffering that humans and other animals are afflicted with. What your argument seems to be saying is that a loving god created endless varieties of suffering for humans to try to work through and come up with imperfect solutions to, with some of those solutions causing other types of suffering in the process.

That's where I was going with that argument- that there a lot of possible missteps and inevitable shortcomings.

For example, when there's a Super Bowl, manufacturers make apparel for both teams as winners, so that they can sell them right away regardless of who wins. They used to destroy the wrong ones. Then they started sending them to impoverished countries instead, to give free clothes, but then arguments popped up about how tens of thousands of free shirts are putting local clothing businesses out of business, since they can't compete with free, which makes the population more dependent.

Or, there's the rice problem with Haiti. American rice is highly subsidized, and starting in the 1980's, due to government programs that some officials including Bill Clinton publicly now regret, American rice started being sold to Haiti at a cost below locally produced rice, which put local farms out of business and dramatically reduced Haiti's ability to feed itself, making them more reliant on foreign imported rice and other food. The program of low cost rice to Haiti basically just ended up benefiting American farms at the cost of Haitians.

So a lot of times, when haves try to help out the have-nots, they end up messing things up with aspects they didn't foresee and making things worse.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
To talk openly about not liking the seemingly gloomy arguments, is basically emotional appeal, a form of losing the debate or more specifically not coming up with answers in defense of the claim. And to assume that most of the people that are questioning this claim about a loving deity go around all day gloomy and thinking about death and suffering, would be missing the point of the discussion, where people are agreeing on a context about a specific claim and then discussing that claim, which requires making gloomy arguments and asking people how those things are resolved in their worldview.


I wonder if for some (many?) people belief in God isn't seem as something worth protecting due to a perceived or assumed "therapeutic" worth?

That would help in explaining why so many people resent atheism and find it in poor taste to openly admit to being one.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Well, of course there's always extreme exceptions to the rule. But if you're really at that point, you might as well kill yourself.
If I had the guts, trust me I would....without question or hesitation.

There's nothing worse than a suicidal coward...maybe a homeless agoraphobe (been there done that too).

I am one of those 'extreme cases', however it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know there are people 'worse off'. :sarcastic
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
If I had the guts, trust me I would....without question or hesitation.

There's nothing worse than a suicidal coward...maybe a homeless agoraphobe (been there done that too).

I am one of those 'extreme cases', however it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know there are people 'worse off'. :sarcastic

Yeah, no. I'm talking about extreme situations like having a terminal illness, starving, being trafficked with no way out, etc. At that point, I can understand suicide and wouldn't hold it against them. You're nowhere near that level of hopelessness.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder if for some (many?) people belief in God isn't seem as something worth protecting due to a perceived or assumed "therapeutic" worth?

That would help in explaining why so many people resent atheism and find it in poor taste to openly admit to being one.
Sure, religion is really important to a lot of people.

My mother is one of them- I'm pretty sure religion is the only thing holding her together at this point. I don't think she knows what my beliefs or lackthereof even are, since I don't bring them up. Her beliefs don't seem to hurt anyone, so I have no reason to go out of my way to discuss anything with her. The truth of her beliefs are less important than what they do for her, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't advocate spreading beliefs I don't think are true for the sake of that sort of thing, but once someone already has and relies on those beliefs, then tugging at the chair they're sitting on with questions and arguments and debates doesn't seem worthwhile.

A debate section of a forum is a different matter. There can be places to actually discuss things with less regard for what the result of the discussion might mean for some people. I'm genuinely curious about how people that believe in a loving deity (specifically those that don't take the easy path and just ignore scientific facts about the world and instead grapple philosophically with the real issues) view nature and some of the conflicts that seem to exist between it and their worldview.
 
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